jamesp i tend to disagree a tad on your thoughts that scat daddy is a pure speed influence...

he is a speed influence with dams that are speedily bred thus producing speedy types and it is easy to look at the horses wesley ward trains who come here as 3 year olds but running in 2 year old races, personally i don't trust the trainer or what he doing with them before they come here, just an opinion

on scat daddy as a sire he hasn't really had the opportunity to prove himself as a sire and especially on turf, so we are guessing in regards his progeny and the distances they will stay, as his progeny have probably been bred for dirt, so trying to transfer that in predicting distances his progeny will stay in regards turf just isn't easy with so little evidence in which to base the argument

looking at some of scat daddys progeny and he has produced a grade 1 winner this year celestine who failed on dirt but has progressed to win a grade 1 turf race over a mile, he is by a a mile turf winner so her influence has influenced the stamina in this colt but also shows scat daddy as a sire was probably going to of been a decent turf sire given time

daddy long legs who was good enough to finish 4th in an irish guineas and won a grade 2 mile race at 2years old on turf before winning the uae derby over 9.5f on polytrack also adds to the argument that scat daddy is not just a speed influence

lady of shamrock stayed 1m2f, daddy nose best 9f winner, the list goes on

so in short i don't by the argument he is a pure speed influencing sire as he has produced plenty who stay, what i would argue is i believe he is a sire that wasn't recognised earlier in his stud career as a potential top class turf sire, which has lead to him being, just an average sire class wise so far, i have no doubt given the right mares to cover over here he could of potentially of turned out to be a top class turf sire

looking at caravaggio and his mother who stayed 6.5f like you alude to, she is by holy bull who as a sire has produced a kentucky derby winner and plenty of horses that both stayed well and plenty who were top class sprinters, like a lot of american sires it can be a mixed bag, so it remains open to debate whether he will stay much further than seven furlongs

personally i think this horse has a decent chance of staying a mile just on run style and considering he has done his winning up to 6 furlongs on soft ground so far, so if and i say if he can reproduce his running on better ground you would have to be at least hopeful he would have a chance, his liking for soft ground so far makes me a tad concerned because he devoured it at ascot but we will see when he encounters decent ground, you never know he may improve further, at this stage he is one of the best 2 year olds i have seen in a few years and i will be surprised if he doesn't remain unbeaten this season and is a scopey type, so he could be very good and imo is not a hype horse as he appears to need no hyping as his ability is clear for all to see

just on his price i haven't seen many decent 2 year olds bar the one he thrashed mehmaas from the wrong side of the track at ascot so 6/1 is fair, when people say he should be this price or that price you have to look at the competition which bar the horse he beat looks slim on the ground at this stage, although i did like the look of fair eva at haydock, long term ante post punting really doesn't interest me, so am happy to see how it pans out but it wouldn't surprise me if he ended up at santa anita in the juvenile at the end of the season, am looking forward to his next start

harry callaghan,

Thanks for the informative post.

I'm more than hopeful Caravaggio, given his temperament and running style, will get the Guineas mile next year. Also, I believe AOB has alluded to Caravaggio, if anything, is a better horse on good ground.

i mean the size of the creatures running, they are enormous in comparison with a normal 2 year old, dear old wesley is certainly feeding these horses the right nutriments from a young age that is for sure, probably from birth i'd say

i always wondered how some lads from school were very thin with no muscle, then suddenly after a couple of months at the gym they had suddenly got enormous muscle growth very quickly, i patted them on the back and congratulated them on there achievements in such a short space of time, i still haven't been in a gym in my lifetime and am sure it is a very honest place in which to work out and with the right nutrition it is amazing what you can achieve

Instead of hoping and believing look at your pedigrees for European Purple breds on TURF that WIN classics. 2yos and 3yos+ are different animals across 2 different seasons. The only coventry type speedier winners at 2yo you will see going on at 3yo+ are the ones that are bred for it i.e Dawn Approach/RockOfGibralter. I repeat Carvaggio is bred to be precious, speedy and for dirt and not as a 3yo+ European Turf G1 classic winner. I would have thought given what AFB has done and not done over the last few weeks it should put anyone off thinking about Carvaggio for the Guineas as this one is a carbon copy. Next years classic winners are quitely sitting in the stables ready for running discreetly in september,october or novemener. Thats where your Turf purple breds are at the moment.

Next years classic winners are quitely sitting in the stables ready for running discreetly in september,october or novemener. Thats where your Turf purple breds are at the moment.

Only two of O'Brien's seven Guineas winners have followed such a path. Footstepsinthesand, who if I remember rightly had a problem that kept him off the course earlier and Camelot, who was always considered more of a Derby horse anyway.

Coolmore will not deliberately delay any of their colts a racecourse appearance given their 'preoccupation' about stud fees/breeding business - Coolmore would be promoting relentlessly and aggressively any of their star 2/3yr olds instead.

Caravaggio whether he stays 8f or not is already a class above those in his age group so far; I hope he stays sound,...whatever will be, will be next year.

Gleneagles and Australia hadn't been seen by now.

Gleneagles debuted 6th Jun, Australia didn't win the Guineas and was thought of more as a Derby horse.

Am James think could be the dogs bits. Can I just also mention thoroughly enjoy reading your posts like we all do on here. Was trying to find previous thread that think madhu started.

some books were taken to the cleaners with a few AP GG bets in recent years, especially Camelot, so they don't take any chances anymore.

Coventry winners have a truly dire record in the Phoenix Stakes so Caravaggio will have a proper hoodoo to overcome there. Taj Mahal is far from a lost cause according to APOB who was interviewed at the Curragh after his debut. His full brother Gleneagles also got beaten on debut but didnt look as dire as TM did at the Curragh. Greenest horse Ryan Moore has ever ridden ex Ballydoyle allegedly but he is a proper specimen all the same.

I've had a little dabble on D'bai @ 50/1 - really promising run in 2nd in the colts maiden at the July meeting finishing like a train once hitting the rising ground. Mark Of Esteem finished 2nd in the same race so there is some precedent.
Full brother to a Guineas runner up so the mile should be his ideal trip.
Also think the naming may be a tip in itself - remember Dubai Millennium!! They couldn't name it Dubai as that had already been used by a German trained horse.

I was extremely impressed with Peace Envoy in the Anglesey Stakes the other day and I'm surprised he can still be backed at 33/1.
On a line through Psychedelic Funk, he is not far behind Caravaggio and the trainer pointed out that the horse has improved recently and is a Group 1 animal.
Given that the favourite has stamina doubts, and the stable and jockey confidence in the horse, the current price looks big- it's almost as if the bookies had their eyes shut last Sunday.   
We will know more after the colt's next intended run in either the Morny Stakes ( where he may potentially meet Lady Aurelia) or the National Stakes.

Jamesp
The two Group 2's he was beaten in were over five furlongs on soft ground at Ascot, (which wouldn't have suited a large, heavy topped colt like him, although he still ran well), and was arguably unlucky in the Railway Stakes at the Curragh ( a race O'Brien does target with his best colts ) when he hit the front in the final furlong but idled and was out battled to the line.
He is obviously behind Caravaggio in the pecking order at this stage but the trainer did compare him to Rock of Gibraltar due to his improvement and could certainly end up being a top miler in due course.

Well I can forget about D'Bai being a Guineas horse after scraping home at 1/5 today.
The 2nd Hyrdroxide on the other hand could be very interesting having given away about 6-8 lengths out of the stalls.

Looking forward to Sunday's race, but I can't agree that it looks a particularly 'competitive' race.  Aidan has a few other possible runners, but otherwise the only one that has any sort of chance is Medicine Jack, the Railway Stakes winner.  Assuming that the other Ballydoyle inmates will be ridden for a place behind Caravaggio, it's really a two-horse race.

agree james at the time of writing there was a decent field but looks like a nice breeze for him, still will tell us whether he likes better ground if nothing else

At least he didn't say he's the best he's ever ridden!

Will not learn much tomorrow. Can't have this for the guineas it's a speedy 2yo only.

He looks like a sprinter to my eye and a doubtful stayer for the Guineas, imo.

Patrick power certainly do at 4/1 the rest shortened it