Add to that the Five Group 1 races won by the horses Australia has beaten three were 2 year old races won by Kingston Hill, Toormore and  War Command. And the other two were by Mukhadram (strangely run race) and The Great Gatsby who won in France and the horse he beat was beaten further next time by Western Hymn.
And the Three Group 1 races won by horses Camelot beat were by French Fifteen as a 2 year old and by Power who ran against Camelot in the 2000 Gns and was out the back. Power won a Gr1 in Ireland as a 2 year old and the Irish 2000 Gns.

There are critical points in ratings where the logic makes no sense,they generally occur at 2 years and early in 3 yr old career.The rating allocated to the Hannon sprint 2yrld  superstar of 120 is questionable? when looking at horses he had previously beaten he beat them once again a similar margin in nunthorp.(so do we downgrade the form?)

I believe the Camelot generation were over rated,and thus it is possible we have over rated this generation,so lots of horses Rated 110+ possibly being kept in training next year?,a few of those will achieve highish rank early in season(improved ratings),so if a star does appear out of this years 2 year olds(whether from Europe or elsewhere)it is always possible we may see another high rating taking place,Once you give a high rating to one exceptional performance,it does generally follow that in future years you may well see a growth in ratings?

Anything is possible, but as it was over 40 years between horses rated higher than 140 I'd say it's big odds against it happening in the very near future.

the first 6 home in Frankel's Guineas never won a Group 1 between them.

Beating inferior horses by 6 lengths + can be better than beating a proven Gp1 winner by, 1.5 lengths.

I know it's difficult for you to grasp and you have no understanding of handicapping but do try

Olympic Glory and Toronado were the best 3yo milers last season - Kingman has beaten them both comfortably. He's clearly an exceptional horse. The Guineas form is worthless - as it so often is - even more so this year because of the bizarre way the race unfolded - and in no way represents how Australia might perform against Kingman in the Ascot mile race in October.

There is zero chance of Australia taking on Kingman over a mile - it's just the usual Coolmore hype trying to talk up the horse's speed.

I think some of wonder why Excelebration was not campaigned more in races he could win?(or maybe he could not?) Instead they chose to race against a horse they could not beat(must have needed the prize money) on ground that they must have thought fine.

H my point was that at this time of the year when both Frankel and Excelebration were 2 year olds nothing that happened afterwards could have been contemplated. I was trying to compare it to this year where similarly the current 2 year old crop do not look likr classic horses yet something will win the classics.
Add to that with all of this years 'stars' will e retiring at the end of the year and something will win the big races next year at a time when the opposition is obviously going to be significantly weaker because these horses are going to stud. It is therefore possible for a horse to make a big name for himself without running against anything of note. That's all.

MJ I cannot agree about Harbinger, sorry. He just turned up in a race that fell apart for one reason or another. I know I get knocked for looking at collateral form but I think it is important.
My reason for thinking the Harbinger race was a fluke is through Cape Blanco and Workforce. In the Epsom Derby Workforce beat Joshua Tree by 11.5 lengths. In the next race Cape Blanco beat Joshua Tree by 0.5 lengths. That puts Workforce 11 lengths in front of Cape Blanco. Exactly the same distance Harbinger beat Cape Blanco in the King George. Add to that Ryan Moore said he couldn't split them but he couldn't get off the Derby winner. Add to that Workforce won the Derby in course record time so probably still suffered from those exertions.
I don't think you get any credibility by rating a horse as high as Harbinger when there are clear signs it was wrong.

Metro John, he won't rate Harbinger as high as a horse that beat a non stayer in the Guineas, and other horses who previously only beat Baby Turk and Altayan, go figure

OMG. I find myself agreeing with brigust1.

Harbinger imo was over-rated for that KGQEII win, not just on collateral form but on times too. There was a long debate on here at the time about it. He went into the race with an OR of 123 and was rated 135 OR afterwards, an improvement of 12 lb. His RPR for the race was also 135.

His TS figure was 128 in the race.Even this figure was perhaps too high. There was a handicap over 12f a little later in which Yashrid, rated 82 was deemed to have run a TS of 91. Ignoring for the moment that on my scale, a 91 would equate to 125 for Harbinger,a 91 figure for this horse was 9lb higher than its previous PB and it never achieved that figure afterwards. It finished rated 85 on OR.

Harbinger's performance that day was top notch,even if there were excuses for the beaten horses, and he certainly deserved to be rated somewhere between  130 to 135. But not 140.IMO.

*higher from

OMG. I find myself agreeing with brigust1

same here

I was not a fan of Harbinger at the time,for weeks after the race my opinion twisted on the race,but after long reflection,it's impossible to fault unless Mr Stoute speaks up and tells us otherwise? yes many wanted softer ground,but Workforce does not fit into that bracket(even if winning the Ark on softer ground), Harbinger himself never had the chance to prove it all wrong?, but i ask you to price up the Arc after the KG,and be honest do you really think Workforce would have beat him on any ground?

MJ I think Stoute and Moore would disagree. In my opinion there should be nothing between them so if Workforce is 132 then Harbinger should be the same. Nothing wrong with that.
The same with CDA, Farhh and St Nicholas Abbey. On form when they met there was absolutely nothing between them yet Clownform have them 7lbs apart. When they priced up the Coronation Cup before St Nic was injured they had him down as favourite to beat CDA. Some say CDA isn't the same horse yet Farhh only just managed to beat him in the Champion Stakes. Plus Ruler of the World should be rated the same as Farhh and CDA.
What has happened is the growth of restricted races and fillies/mares only races specifically for the breeders.

And Figgis if you think a true comparison is to only use immediate and recent races that is too more ridiculous for words. I am not saying the past is best but I am not saying it is worst either. You seem to think only you should have a voice anything that happened before you time is naturally worse. The fact that I can put forward a coherent argument for past generations should be a good thing as a reference. But because there is a chance it goes against your opinion it is obviously wrong. Absolutely crazy idea.   

I think Frankel was a great horse who, through no fault of his own, was born at a time when the opposition was weak. To rate other horses better than their actual worth simply to prove Frankel was great has been and will be completely counter productive. It means horses going to stud as being better than they are will be weakening the gene pool. Then if, as expected, these stallions 'regress to the mean' the pool will be further weakened. This is not the way forward. This isn't new and has been addressed many times but to produce a betting product the quality of the horses has and will continue to suffer.

I am not saying the past is best

You've said this more than once. Saying the breed has declined, as you have, can only mean the past is best.

You seem to think only you should have a voice anything that happened before you time is naturally worse

It's not me that keeps voicing up and putting down other people's opinions. Your latest one being that anyone who rates Australia and Kingman highly are "easily pleased" and it is "bollox". I don't rate them particularly highly myself but others are entitled to if that's how they see it. For your information, Dancing Brave was within my time.

The fact that I can put forward a coherent argument for past generations should be a good thing as a reference.

The fact is that you put up a completely different argument for past generations.

I would attempt to reply but we've been here too many times before and it's clear that you can't reason with ignorance

Frankel's year was an exceptional one. Nearly all the top all-age races in Europe in 2011 and 2012 were won by 2011's 3yos. "came from Australia" - what's that got to do with anything typical brigust piece of nonsense.

And lets not forget the best older horse at the time came from Australia ffs.

Sounds more like a scoff than a perfect valid case.

And my point about Australia was that Oz middle distance horses are nowhere near as good as ours normally

So the point being is that Australian middle distance horses are normally better than ours. Which somehow leads to a ffs, which seems to strongly imply that because they're normally not as good as ours they can't ever be as good. Which most definitely is bollocks. If that wasn't the point then it wasn't really much of a point, and was in fact pointless

And my point about Australia was that Oz middle distance horses are nowhere near as good as ours normally.

So what? The merits of an individual horse have nothing to do with any other. Most Italian horses aren't up to much does that mean Ribot was no good? Honestly brig you are probably a really nice bloke but 90% of what you post is utter tripe.

Variables? we can never give nothing but our own opinion,the chaos taking place in front of our eyes is open to many variables,Track,ground conditions,and how the individual was trained or what sickness,injury may have impacted performance,so in truth a wide margin winner does not perhaps signify greatness, but possible weakness in opposition,I believe this is the point brigust makes,and I do agree,but we will always remember those moments of what we perceive perfect Art