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Juddmonte International York
Juddmonte International York
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Whoops wrong thread!!!
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love the ratings banter etc
but didn't moore just outride hanigan, that's the way I saw it, how is that factored into every ones ratings?  |
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Broke my golden rule "hardly ever back fillies" what a pratt.
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The 1st 3 home in the KG (certainly the 1st&3rd) ran below their best at York this wk.
Tough race the KG especially for a 3yo filly. I have no doubts the filly ran below her best yest. |
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Looks like Oz may go for the QE11 against Kingman. That would be well worth watching. My money would be on Oz all the way.
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Aus no chance against Kingman over a mile
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I'll be very surprised if Australia is put up against Kingman over 1m as I'd be surprised if Coolmore were truly confident of him overturning Guineas form, despite comments that have been made. Although some horses do improve past others that beat them earlier in the year, Raven's Pass and Henrythenavigator being the obvious one that comes to mind, I know where my money would be going, but I doubt I'll get the opportunity.
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I know where my money would be going, but I doubt I'll get the opportunity.
I couldn't agree more. Could be my biggest bet of the season. I would so love to be able to put my money where my mouth is.  |
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What the **** is wrong with the timing mechanism at York? That's either the third or fourth (depending on which information is true) race in four days without an official time? Pathetically amateurish.
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*in three days
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metro john
21 Aug 14 17:27 We can rate Frankel 147 but do we really believe he could give 5 lb + to Sea the Stars over 10f? I would bet money he could brigust1 Aug 14 10:06 Looks like Oz may go for the QE11 against Kingman. That would be well worth watching. My money would be on Oz all the way. I very much doubt this will occur Brigust, but would certainly want to be on Kingman if it did. I already have a ticket for champions day and would prefer both were kept apart so I can have 2 winners on the card  |
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Hi Andrew. Hope you are well.
I will swerve your first point. I'm fresh out of rehab. Frankel is great! Frankel is great! Arrghh. Nurse! Your second point though I would definitely be on Oz's side. I wonder who would start favourite? In his column today Hughes suggested they should retire Oz after the Irish Champion Stakes because he has nothing left to prove! Where do we get these clowns from? |
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Once again Brig, if Australia and Kingman clash I`ll eat my pants
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Fine thanks Brigust, i'm actually in UK, but not for racing reasons this time (sadly). Hope life is treating you well. If (and it's a mega if) Australia and Kingman meet in the QEII I have no doubt the latter would be favorite. Kingman is the miler of the two without question, irrespective of what JOB says, and the more likely winner in my opinion. As for Australia having nothing left to prove, that is simply ridiculous, but we all know this stems from the Coolmore media machine.
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In his column today Hughes suggested they should retire Oz after the Irish Champion Stakes because he has nothing left to prove!
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Very well thanks A. I went to Ascot and saw Tahgrooda win and also went to Newbury for the Geoffrey Freer. It was a busy early part of the year for me and I am having a couple of months break while I can.
I have a feeling they will meet, you know. After the Irish Champion there isn't much left except the Arc, the QE11, Champion Stakes and the Breeders Cup. They have virtually eliminated the Arc and the Breeders Cup turf when they said they didn't think they would be going 12f again. I think the Breeders Cup Mile will be too sharp so that's out. That leaves the QE11 and the Champion Stakes. And they have said quite a few times now that they would like to take Kingman on again. At Ascot that would be the best opportunity and I really think they want to. Otherwise why keep saying it? There would be no point. |
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And they have Ruler of the World for the Champion Stakes.
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Would be great to see Aus take on Kingman but it won't happen - the Derby winner just doesn't have that kind of speed - only way he could win would be if Coolmore ran a couple of spoilers to box in Kingman and give Aus first run in a slow race. It won't happen - it's just talk - but if they're going to keep saying Aus could beat Kingman then it should.
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chances are ascot in oct will be soft, I just cant see aus making the gig for either race
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A_T his speed would be the last of my worries. Kingman beat Australia a head at Newmarket and even if went a little too soon, which I don't believe, he was beaten and at his limit. Whereas Australia was having his first run of the season and even if you ignore AOB's virus comments he wouldn't have to improve to beat Kingman. I expect they would run a pacemaker, nothing wrong with that, and I would expect Oz to win cosily. I'm a punter though and I know I get it wrong sometimes but if they did meet I would applaud it.
I suspect, Allegedl22, that you will be right and the ground will play a part. |
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the only middle distance horses I can remember who might have been able to drop to a mile late season and beat the best would be, off the top of my head, Sea The Stars, Dancing Brave and El Gran Senor. I haven't seen anything from Australia that puts him in that class. In practice I can't recall the scenario I describe ever actually happening - and there are good reasons for that. Coolmore won't run Aus against Kingman over a mile on any ground - but it's a good thought to continually push into the racing public's minds.
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Hell we're talking about it!
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Not sure why people want to see the Derby winner take on a top miler. They are both champions in their class and why would either owner wish to his horse beaten?
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Tabor said: ‘Maybe we will pull up stumps after the Irish Champion but running against Kingman would be something very special. For the public it would be fantastic. I am not sure how realistic it is but it is a nice thought.’
Pulling up stumps sounds odds on. Taking on Kingman sounds huge odds against. |
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This is horse racing we are talking about, isn't it? I would rather see Oz take on Kingman than watch them both do laps at long odds on. And anyway it's JOB and AOB who brought this up. Not us.
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If it is being considered by Coolmore then fine. If they think that they could beat Kingman they might consider it but the value of Kingman in defeat would suffer much more than that of Australia who would have the excuse of running over his "wrong" distance so I would be surprised if Gosden/Abdulla would seek a confrontation. There is no way that Kingman would take Australia on over more than a mile.
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Concerning Kingman v Australia,it would be very unlikely,and Gosden may have to duck the issue,Kingman has had a long hard season,the stable may be about to hit a down patch(it's been a great season)
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I remember commenting after the Guineas that I believed Australia may have run the best race on the wrong part of the track,but also commented that Kingman did too much at 6f -7f(too early),I am not sure which one is the better miler,but on quick ground with the hold up until last minute tactics employed,Kingman would get the verdict for me,on soft ground I am not sure,Australia does lack that big turn of foot visually,similar to Nashwan(another I could not get right?) bags of class, a good heart and set of lungs,and does travel so well over further,but always a visual effort to kick start the final run?
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It would be nice to see what the mile form is worth in America?
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While some of Gosden's horses may be going over the top, others are still improving and he may well have a wealth of 2yo talent waiting in the wings. Forever Now looked much improved on Saturday. I still hope that he can get Remote back but he is running out of time now.
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Sageform
I would agree with the out of time comments on Remote.Australia is growing and not the finished article even now,it's a great pity he will be retired this season from all the noises being made. |
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Some are easily pleased.
Kingman has beaten trees excluding Australia and what has he beaten? Kingman beat Toronado who recently beat Anodin who is not Group 1 unless its poor. Kingman beat Olympic Glory who has won 3 Group 1's. He beat Tulius (not Group 1), Top Notch Tonto (not Group 1) and What a Name (not Group 1). Australia has beaten Kingston Hill, Kingfisher and The Great Gatsby. Kingman and Australia are currently our two best horses by some way and they are better than the not very good horses they have beaten. So next season when Kingman, Australia, Taghrooda, Olympic Glory and Toronado have gone to stud who s going to win the Group 1 races restricted to 4 year olds and upwards? The Lockinge, Queen Anne Stakes, Prince of Wales Stakes, Coronation Cup. Prix Ganay, Grand Prix de St Cloud, Prix Jean Romanet, Prix D'Ispahan? One thing I bet you they are won by horses these so called ratings experts rate at around 125 - 130 claiming they have all improved. It is complete bollox. And to make matters worse do any of the 2 year olds coming through look better? Next year me may have another Frankel. |
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Gosden isn't the one that's been going on about taking on Australia again, it's Ballydoyle that keeps harping on that their horse was unlucky in the Guineas and has the speed for a mile and how it would be good to have another crack at Kingman. Kingman's connections have always said his end of season target is the QE2. Coolmore should either put up or shut up.
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Kingman beat Toronado who recently beat Anodin who is not Group 1 unless its poor.
Kingman beat Olympic Glory who has won 3 Group 1's. He beat Tulius (not Group 1), Top Notch Tonto (not Group 1) and What a Name (not Group 1). Australia has beaten Kingston Hill, Kingfisher and The Great Gatsby. It's fair enough to say these horses aren't superstars, but let's not start all this convoluted form line nonsense again. We've already established that you don't like the same methods used to judge the class of '85 so let's not be hypocritical and use one rule for one year and not another. Next year me may have another Frankel How do you make that out? |
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*class of '86
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^you need help.
Next year me may have another Frankel How do you make that out? Well Kingman is by some way the best miler excluding Australia. Australia is by some way the best middle distance horse. Toronado and Olympic Glory are the older milers. Telescope and Mukhadram are the best middle distance horses. There is every likelihood all of these will be off to stud at the end of the season. So what is left is going to be far from unbeatable. If a smart 2 year old comes along he could easily dominate both the three and four year old divisions without actually being a superstar. At the head of the 2000 Gns we have: Ivawood. Unlikely to stay Highland Reel Faydhan. maiden winner John F Kennedy not won Group race Flaming Spear maiden winner Richard Pankhurst Listed winner The Wow Signal French Gr1 winner Gleneagles Estidhkaar Kodi Bear Not what anyone would call a great set of 2 year olds and given The Wow Signal beat the French is his Group 1 then how good are they going to be? I know there is still time but at the moment it does not look great. |
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And don't forget at this time of year Frankel had only won a Newmarket maiden by half a length.
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If a smart 2 year old comes along he could easily dominate both the three and four year old divisions without actually being a superstar.
You've just said that Kingman and Australia have dominated their divisions. None of them have been rated anywhere near as high as Frankel. So I still don't get the Frankel comment. |
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Figgis I am not comparing them to Frankel ffs.
When Frankel ended his 3 year old season he had beaten horses who had won 30 Group 1's between them. (The same as BG). If Australia retires at the end of this season so far he has beaten horses who have won FIVE Group 1's. And had Camelot been retired as a Triple Crown winner had he won the St Leger he would have beaten the winners of THREE Group 1 races. And had Ruler of the World been retired after getting beaten in the Irish Derby he would have beaten horses who have won ZERO Group 1 races. As it is Camelot and ROW have remained in training and only won a Gr3 between them. It just shows that to be a champion you either need to beat proper Group 1 horses or be born at the right time. Excelebration at this time, in his last race as a two year old had won a 7 runner maiden at Newmarket where he beat Pont du Jour whose only win ever was a handicap off 66 from 35 starts. The third horse was Lead Singer whose only win from 25 starts was a maiden at Catterick. Being born at the right time is vital. |
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I suspect the better horses will be found outside the uk next year,But am keeping one eye on one of Mr Bells,not raced yet?,from a ratings viewpoint this year not bad at all,with plenty just underneath Group1 standard who could prove useful enough if kept in training?
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