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let's not ruin a good day Fig, eh? |
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well done Figgis you thought she might just stay the mile trip and she did , she is a five year old now , the Track is fairly flat and the early pace did not look too strong , these factors helped her to last home , she is a great filly and has already proved that over the last two or three years . Dawn Approach probably wants a fairly long break and a try at ten furlongs , three intense battles against the best of the three year old milers which include Toronado have left a mark.
imo there is a real distinction to be made between three year old Horses Horses who have had two or three battles with top class opponents of their own age and older Horses/fillies who have been given a planned summer campaign in terms of being at their peak next time out . DOW ran well but to my mind the one to take out of the race is Intello who is on course for a good run in the Arc |
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The first and most important conclusion to draw is that DA ran so far below form (at least 14-20 lb) that I would guess that he is done for this season now, unless his Goodwood run took a huge amount from him and he had insufficient recovery time. He looked well, he was well positioned until half-way, he may have run a little free but nothing like in the Derby, but he had nothing left over the last 2f.At his best, the last run,he would have won this. That's not sour grapes and doesn't detract from MC's effort which showed that fast ground is not a problem for her and on a flat track 8f is within her scope.
Olympic Glory improved significantly and was a little unfortunate not to win. How good is Toronado then? Intello ran a big race over an inadequate trip. Fabre has a strong hand for the Arc with this one and Flintshire. |
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Olympic Glory is obviously a decent horse as he's shown previously but I wouldn't back him in anything but a weak Gp1 on that showing. When he did get a clear run Moonlight Cloud was quickening away from him, it was only when she tired that he started to gain significantly on her. It could just as easily be argued that had Jarnet been able to hold on to her longer she would've won more comfortably. The Olympic Glory run is the type that always gets overrated, imo, as a horse with more immediate tactical pace uses its speed, begins to tire, then one with lesser ability eats into the winner's advantage late on. We shall find out next time.
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You may be right Figgis but he had Dawn Approach form beforehand and on form through DOW he would have confirmed that. The fact that he was favourite for the French 2000Gns in front of Intello backs that up. He hasn't just arrived from the woodwork like some outsiders do.
My reading of yesterdays race is somewhat different to yours. I think TJ knew Frankie was going well because he was right beside him and when Frankie changed direction to go inside Dawn Approach TJ seized the opportunity and kicked on. Frankie got held up in traffic then, when clear, confirmed TJ's view. |
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Brig, yes but when OG was in the clear with no excuse it was the filly showing the better acceleration, she went away from him, it was only later when she tired that he really gained on her. As I said, OG is no mug but I wouldn't be rating him too much higher on that run than anything he's done before. Intello is a good middle distance horse, he's done me a couple of favours in the past so I have no reason to crab him but he's not got the speed of a Gp1 miler. Zoffany was also a horse with previous decent form but he was also flattered by his SJP run. Ok, that was a more exaggerated example of an inferior horse gaining late on a worthy winner but it still appeared a good run by the second, he finished in front of Excelebration that day, but didn't really go on from that. It's all about the price, the chances are that OG will be overbet next time, if he is I'll be looking to oppose him.
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*mare
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I see Dawn Approach is entered in the Irish Champion Stakes on 7th September. I hope he runs. Free money.
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Before people get too excited about the free money.
Do you remember when Dawn Approach was going for the Derby and was classified a C.C type? C.C type winning distances: 5-6f 58%; 7-8f 40%; 9-10f 2%. |
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Is their a video of the race online anywhere - can't see it on Youtube yet?
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http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x12yq93_11-08-2013-deauville-fr-5-race-prix-jacques-le-marois-2013-group-i-1-600-m_sport?search_algo=2
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Another point, brig, is that when Jarnet made his move OG wasn't travelling as well as he had been a bit earlier, Dettori was already riding before his path was blocked. Anyway, like I said we will find out next time with OG, MC is being given a well deserved rest.
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Couldn't disagree with that Fig. My view is that Head has often said MC gives everything and finds nothing for the whip whereas the colt definitely found for the whip. I also believe had they both had straight, unimpeded runs to the line from 3 out he would have beaten her comfortably. It may just be an 'on the day' thing but there are form lines that say it wasn't the fluke the prices suggest.
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Thansk for the link Figgis.
![]() All I can say as an Intello place layer is ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
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I also rate it below her Prix Maurice de Gheest win, whether that was due to the pace aspect of the race, her not being quite as good over the trip, or the race coming so soon after the big effort last week (OG and Intello were relatively fresh horses) I can't say, maybe it was more than one of those factors.
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I couldn't do that Fig. It is a specialist distance and the 2nd horse clearly didn't run his race. Take the 2nd out and the race looks ordinary.
If you can't be good be lucky they say. The three De Gueest's she won she beat Society Rock on his unfavoured ground, Whizz kid is a 5f horse and Lethal Force never ran to his best (I don't think). She was unlucky in the Marois last year and possibly lucky this year. Never ran to form in the US or the 1000 Gns and in the Golden Jubilee the where she finished 2nd to Black Caviar the 3rd and 4th home have been well beaten since and are not Gr1 horses. Only the race against Farhh looks like a clear cut success. |
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Posted 12 August 2013, 15:11 GMT
Dawn Approach is being treated with antibiotics following a poor scope after his disappointing run in the Group One Prix du Haras de Fresnay-le-Buffard - Jacques Le Marois at Deauville on Sunday, August 11. Godolphin's racing manager, Simon Crisford explained: "Jim Bolger told me that Dawn Approach scoped with mucous after the race but he had been fine when tested before he left Ireland on Saturday. "Dawn Approach is now on a course of antibiotics and will be rested until all is well with him." ![]() |
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How was it Society Rock's unfavoured ground?
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I know that Lethal Force was below form, I expected as much before the race and the clock backs it up. It was, however, still a very good time performance, and even for the clock naysayers, take Lethal Force out and Gordon Lord Byron is a good marker for those that prefer benchmark horses. The time of Sunday's race wasn't as good for one reason or another, which is another reason I'm negative about OG's proximity.
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The way she put travelled and then put clear daylight between herself and some of the best milers in Europe was devastating - as widely expected she was gasping for air in the last 100 yards but at 7f she was different gravy. Given her ideal conditions (6 1/2 to 7 1/2f on goodish ground) she is the best horse in Europe imo.
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I know Society Rock won the Jubilee on soft ground but Ascot soft isn't the same as anywhere else and the form is pretty poor anyway.
I just like to see races run fairly and squarely where all are suited by the trip, ground and fitness. When horses win races where there are question marks then they are not clear cut successes and Moonlight Cloud has her fair share of those as does CDA. And when that happens I have my doubts. When a race is truly run without excuses the formbook is a good guide. They are not uncommon. |
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brigust1
I just like to see races run fairly and squarely where all are suited by the trip, ground and fitness. Races such as that are very few and far between and always have been. I remember reading some research that in most races somewhere around 50% of runners don't run to their very best marks, seems roughly about right to me. |
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Not surprised about that DA news Turnip. He ran so far below form there just had to be a physical reason.
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Tbh, it wouldn't be the first time Bolger has burned one out early. Finsceal Beo was the best 1000 winner I've seen in recent years and no I'm not talking through my pocket as I was on Arch Swing at big ante post prices. I didn't like the way he campaigned her, though, and it was no surprise to see her form wane. Maybe I'm wrong and he's doing the right thing by striking while the iron's hot with a horse unlikely to develop further anyway. It was noticeable to me though how much DA improved after being rested after the Coventry last year. As I said before I'm not a fan of his aggressive campaigning.
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I suppose it's a fine line for a trainer Fig. I think DA came out in April last season and because of that stole a march on fitness and strength on the later maturing types. They may pass him now but their strategy has worked. Had they hung onto him and waited for the others they may have lost out altogether. I wonder what the end if season results will show.
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Brig, it paid off to get him out early last year as he was a good Coventry winner but nothing outstanding, but with a near 3 month rest afterwards I had him as a well above average National Stakes winner, which he franked in the Dewhurst. People are saying how good is Toronado, best miler in training, etc, but on his latest run he was only a 1/2 length better than DA so it's not like he's been totally left behind by late maturing types. And even if Toronado is considered superior to DA the Hannon's still reckoned he needed a rest after the Sussex.
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I'm responding without checking but in the National Stakes I think he beat a handicapper and in the Dewhurst he beat his pacemaker. In the Guineas he beat a 150/1 shot. Fortune favours the brave. And they managed to sell him the Godolphin. Not bad eh?
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That reads like I'm knocking him Fig, but I am not. It's just how the form book reads.
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I don't look at form the same way as you, brig, if looking at it your way then it would've been hard to make a case for ever backing him in a good race, in fact he ought to have been a lay, the results, however, mostly proved different.
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Another point is Bolger campaigns all his good horses in a similar manner, are we to believe that all his good horses are precocious types without the scope for development? I find that hard to believe.
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You are right about Bolger and it works for him. As far as form goes almost all of the horses are in the same boat that is because there are too many Gr1 races. Toronado's form wasn't great but then it comes down to style when substance is lacking.
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There has to be more Group races, though, just because there is more racing, we can't just have more ****, there's enough of that already. Personally I'm in favour of less racing altogether.
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* sh1te
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Tony Morris wrote an excellent article in the RP the other day about the effect the substantial increase in Group races throughout Europe and still there has only been one horse in the last 40 years capable of being considered against those of the early 70's. I disagreed with him on one point and he knows it but that's what racing is about.
And my good friends the ratings agency told me the reason the second coming came along was because there is so much racing it was statistically likely. I disagreed with that as well. |
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I've always thought the difference between the highest rated Gp1 horses and the average Gp1 winners is too exaggerated. I believe it was as true years ago as it is today. Ratings like 144 for an end of season slow time soft ground win seem well over the top imo, as there are many exaggerated wide margin wins on soft ground and we all know the form is often suspect and can't be take literally. The same is true of Frankel's 147 rating, but at least it's in keeping with the overrating that went on years ago, so I have no problem with it on that score.
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The news about DA being found with mucus alters the analysis more than a little. What I do find interesting is that Da reurned an official SP of 4/1 after being much shorter earlier. Surely there isn't anything untoward here, is there?
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Sandown, Moonlight Cloud also drifted markedly on here, over 4/1 before the off.
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Sandown
Not sure why it would alter the post result analysis, though? As it was obvious that DA ran below form, whatever the reason, whether he was over the top, bounced, had mucus, etc, the result analysis would be the same, or are you talking about a different analysis? |
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Figgis
With mucus the reason he could make a faster recovery than if he had been bottomed so he might still be a contender for the QEII |
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Ah right. Don't think you could ever rule a horse like that out, I suppose it depends again on the price, but I think I would have to leave him alone in future (wouldn't be comfortable laying him) and just take it on the chin if he beats my selection.
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