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1000 GUINEAS (2014)

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Replies: 959
By:
sintonian
When: 22 Aug 13 14:41
16/1 still too big for the Guineas. She has clearly improved a ton since the defeat by Kiyoshi.
By:
unclepuncle
When: 22 Aug 13 14:44
Took some 25/1 with Bilies - hopefully be able to lay off in single figures nearer the time.Happy
By:
Stevie Gerrard
When: 22 Aug 13 14:45
Looks all speed to me sint and I'd still have her a stone behind Kiyoshi
By:
sintonian
When: 22 Aug 13 14:48
The trainer puts me off a fair bit Stevie but reckon she should be a 10/1 chance tbh.
By:
unclepuncle
When: 22 Aug 13 15:08
Looks she'd get 7f even now, whether she'll truly get a mile next May is up for debate.
By:
jamesp
When: 22 Aug 13 15:20
I'm not sure whether we learned much more about Lucky Kristale today.  Queen Catrine narrowed the gap from 3 lengths (the distance by which she was beaten in the Cherry Hinton) to 1½ lengths today (on 3 lbs better terms).  The first three home seemed to run more or less exactly to their official ratings (107, 100 and 101 respectively), though the handicapper will doubtless raise the winner by another couple of pounds or so.  It's clear that she's a much better filly than she showed behind Kiyoshi in the Albany Stakes (her trainer admitted that he had 'undercooked' her before Ascot and she paid the penalty for racing prominently there).  She's a smart filly at 6f (she's right up there with Vorda and Rizeena at the top of the 6f fillies' rankings) and will take some beating in the Cheveley Park Stakes next time.  She should stay at least 7f, but she's not ceratin to get a mile.  The post-race quote of 25/1 for the Guineas was too big and I have had a small 'saver' on her at those odds.  Current price of 16/1 looks about right.  Others make more appeal.
By:
Figgis
When: 23 Aug 13 12:06
I thought Lucky Kristale ran below her Newmarket form yesterday, she certainly ran slower, I have it 6lbs worse, fortunately she was still good enough. There seems no obvious reason the way the race was run, but the trainer did say he'd had some niggling doubts about her well being beforehand. Yesterday's form wouldn't be Guineas class but her Newmarket form wouldn't be too short of it. Has to be a doubt about her over a mile, though, and not one I'd want to chance ante post.
By:
sageform
When: 23 Aug 13 12:14
Whatn about Lucky Kristale is that she settled well, even looked outpaced for a furlong but once asked she went past them in 100 yards and won pretty easily. I think she could have won by farther but her race style suggests she will stay.
By:
the bairn
When: 23 Aug 13 17:18
Lucky Kristale's jockey said after the race " a mile would be no problem" cheers.
By:
jamesp
When: 23 Aug 13 17:27
There was a highly impressive debut performance by Freddy Head's filly Royalmania in the 7½f newcomers' race at Deauville today.  The heavily backed odds-on favourite took up the running with over 3 furlongs to race and quickly went several lengths clear under hands and heels riding.  She cruised past the finishing line 8 lengths clear of the runner-up, with a further 4 lengths back to the third.  The winning time was 0.27s faster than the colts' equivalent race an hour later.  She had been working very nicely at home in the mornings and the result came as no surprise to connections.  The Gr.3 Prix d'Aumale (on 10 September) was mentioned as a possible next target for her.  She's by Elusive Quality out of Safari Queen (multiple Grade 2/3 winner in North America over middle distances) and she will certainly get a mile this year and is likely to get 10f next year.  It remains to be seen quite what she beat today, as it was a newcomers' race, but she is clearly an exciting prospect.  I managed to get a bit of 33/1 and 25/1 for the Guineas afterwards, but bookmakers were running scared and by mid-afternoon she was generally down to 16/1 (as short as 12/1 in places).
By:
jamesp
When: 24 Aug 13 10:43
I'm very surprised to see that Tapestry has been taken out of the Moyglare Stud Stakes.  Given Ballydoyle's block entries policy, I can't understand why they've taken her out unless she's met with a setback.  They will now rely on Perhaps or Wonderfully (or possibly Terrific, depending on how she performs today) to spearhead their challenge.
By:
Try My Best
When: 24 Aug 13 13:15
Maybe because she's had a couple of quick runs but I must admit it's a bit worryingSad
By:
jamesp
When: 24 Aug 13 13:38
I just received a tweet from the AOB fansite suggesting that Tapestry will be heading to Newmarket for the Fillies' Mile.  I guess they're in no hurry to tackle Kiyoshi in the Moyglare!  They already have a couple of very able deputies (Perhaps, Wonderfully) who will give them a line to the Moyglare form.  It will come as no surprise if they also decide to enter her for the Prix Marcel Boussac.
By:
Try My Best
When: 24 Aug 13 13:51
Nice info. Well done
By:
jamesp
When: 27 Aug 13 10:01
I was wrong about Tapestry: I felt sure that she featured among the original entries for the Moyglare Stud Stakes, but I contacted Horse Racing Ireland and apparently she was never entered for the race (very surprising, given her pedigree).  Maybe they will choose to supplement her for the race: we will soon find out.
By:
jamesp
When: 27 Aug 13 12:52
Tapestry has been supplemented for Sunday's race.  Kiyoshi, Rizeena, Carla Bianca, Perhaps and Wonderfully also feature among the 13 fillies remaining in the race at today's forfeit stage.
By:
sj
When: 27 Aug 13 13:34
^13/8 Kiyoshi,3 Tapestry,5 Rizeena, 7 Wonerfully  10s bar early market from PP
By:
jamesp
When: 27 Aug 13 13:58
PP were quick off the mark! Those prices look about right.
Interesting that Bolger has left in his unraced filly Prudent Approach (full sister to Dawn Approach). She can't be THAT good, surely, to run in a hot Group 1 first time out.  He must be pulling our leg (not for the first time).
By:
jamesp
When: 27 Aug 13 14:00
I dare say that the 10/1 Carla Bianca will appeal to some people. Not for me, though.
By:
Try My Best
When: 28 Aug 13 17:56
Tapestry 7/4 from 3s. That's quite a move for the Moyglare.
By:
Figgis
When: 29 Aug 13 10:12
With the Moyglare approaching I've looked back at the Albany Stakes more thoroughly and now I'm not convinced the form can be trusted. Of those behind the winner, I have all of them franking their form and speed figures before or since, except Joyeuse who hasn't been out since. This makes the form appear very solid, but is Kiyoshi really as superior as she appeared that day? By my reckoning Sandiva's figures before and since would've seen her win the race in most years, she's better than the average standard. For Kiyoshi to be 3 1/4 lengths better would make her freakishly fast. I've looked back through the last 10 years and I can't find another filly that would compare at this stage. The odd thing is that there was no sign she might be exceptional on her first 2 starts, I wouldn't expect to see too much evidence of it on debut but her second start looked quite ordinary to me.

The time evidence isn't concrete, the only other race on the straight course that day was the last race, which makes the Albany time look pretty poor. I can't really believe the race was as slow as that and it's very possible the track had speeded up by the time of the final race. Compared with all the other races the time looks very good indeed, but for the winner it does look a bit too good to be true. I think the truth is probably between the two, making Kiyoshi just an average winner. I suspect the others couldn't have performed to their best on the day. I believe a similar thing happened in the Coventry and funnily enough both winners were held up at the back early on.
By:
sintonian
When: 29 Aug 13 11:47
I agree Figgis. Kiyoshi beat Lucky Kristalle 9 lengths which is not a true reflection of the ability between the two in my opinion.
By:
Figgis
When: 29 Aug 13 12:03
Yeah, Sint, Lucky Kristale definitely wasn't the same filly that day. I now think Sandiva couldn't have been either. I thought Kiyoshi's form was the best 2yo form I've seen this season, if it could be taken at face value I'm sure it would be, however on reflection I think it's very unlikely.
By:
unclepuncle
When: 29 Aug 13 12:05
I haven't got a penny on Kiyoshi, my only bet on the race was snaffling some 25/1 on LK immediately after the Lowther with a view to laying off - cowardly I know.Silly

Figgis - I'm not a time or figures man at all and enjoy reading all your analysis (and that of Sandown and others), but it seems that everything (time, way the form has worked out etc) says she is really special but despite going over it again and again you just don't want to believe it?? Surely it's possible she is just a freak - a female Frankel maybe.Confused

As the old saying goes - 'If it looks like ****, smells like ****, and feels like ****, you don't have to actually eat it to know it's ****'.Laugh
By:
Figgis
When: 29 Aug 13 12:31
Uncle, yes she could well be. As you say, the form certainly fits. The time is ambiguous on this occasion but the beaten horses would fit with having Kiyoshi on a high figure. The manner of her win was also impressive visually. You're right, there is an element of me not wanting to believe it, but that's because I'm finding it difficult to believe she improved what would be as much as 17lbs on my figures from her second run to her third. I also find it difficult to believe a filly who looked relatively ordinary on her first starts could be the fastest 2yo filly I've rated, and by some way. I'm probably also swayed negatively by the yard, I'm not a great fan of it when it comes to my own punting, but that's just me. It's because I considered her a bet in the Moyglare that I've had to go into the form more thoroughly but I couldn't back her now, actually I want to be against her.
By:
Figgis
When: 29 Aug 13 12:35
Uncle, also the fact that she could beat an in form Sandiva by 3 1/4 lengths while swerving across the track seems a bit unreal. I wouldn't mark up the performance too much because of the lost ground but I'd have to think she could've been good for 4 lengths, which would be an even huger performance. Maybe she is a freak but I have to be a doubter at the moment.
By:
Facts
When: 29 Aug 13 15:51
I think she's a very special filly
By:
unclepuncle
When: 29 Aug 13 15:56
Interesting stuff Fig and I guess we will all find out on Sunday.Devil

I've never been a time or figures man - I just go on my gut reaction to a performance based on the visual impression and trying to work out the worth of the form based on previous and subsequent form of the other horses, and past history of the race, the trainer etc. For the antepost classics I also look closely at the breeding. Then it's all down to the prices as to whether I actually back a horse.

Most of the time it's a matter of getting a decent price andjudging when to lay off before a horse completely drops out of the antepost picture, but sometimes I get it right - my proudest moment being backing Ouija Board at the highest price she was ever matched at on Betfair for the Oaks over 6 months before the raceLove.
By:
Figgis
When: 29 Aug 13 16:31
Ouija Board was one of my favourite fillies/mares. I could never have spotted her as early as you, though. I backed her after the Pretty Polly, amazingly she was 12/1 and the price held up for quite a while, it was only in the few days leading up to the Oaks that the price started to tumble. I also backed her in a double with North Light after he won the Dante, she was still 12/1 then. I've found the winner too difficult to find in the last few years. What price did you get?
By:
unclepuncle
When: 30 Aug 13 09:08
Perhaps surprisingly given how far in advance I backed her the biggest she was matched at was only 90 - but all the money (which wasn't a great amount) matched at that price was mine(according to the graph anyway).
By:
Stevie Gerrard
When: 30 Aug 13 09:29
There is another runner from the albany apart from Joyeuse that I'm waiting to see and that is Red Lady and she ran from the front and finished the last 2f slowly. Whilst Kiyoshi was the one whose finishing speed was closest to optimal, Red Lady I have as possibly 23lb better than the rating I gave to her that day which would put her on 100. Her official rating is 88 so I'd be very keen on her in a nursery. But it is still possible I may have the whole race a tad too high.
By:
jamesp
When: 30 Aug 13 10:33
Yeah, Red Lady is almost certainly better than she showed in the Albany.  Those who set or followed the early pace (including Lucky Kristale) paid the price in the final furlong.
By:
jamesp
When: 30 Aug 13 10:34
Just seven runners in the Moyglare: Kiyoshi, Rizeena, Tapestry, Wonderfully, Perhaps, Lady Bianca and Touch Of Snow.
Awaiting riding arrangements for the Ballydoyle fillies...
By:
jamesp
When: 30 Aug 13 10:47
Latest betting from Power: 7-4 Kiyoshi, Tapestry, 7 Rizeena, Wonderfully, 12 Carla Bianca, Perhaps, 66 Touch Of Snow.
I'll be gutted if the joint-favourites both manage to get beaten, but the Charlie Hills team seems to be very bullish about their filly and the weight of money for Tapestry suggests there is plenty of confidence behind her too.  I assume that Joseph O'Brien will ride Tapestry, so it would be a surprise if either Wonderfully or Perhaps were to go on and win; of the pair, Wonderfully is the bigger threat, having already beaten Perhaps in a Group 3 race last time.
The one that worries me most is Rizeena, who was staying on well in the closing stages of the Prix Morny last time, although she started slowly that day and may have been suited by the way the race panned out.  Carla Bianca's bare form looks nowhere near good enough but she shaped with plenty of promise on her debut and commands some respect, although one suspects that her owners, who sponsor the race, were the movers behind her participation.
By:
jamesp
When: 30 Aug 13 12:03
As expected, Joseph O'Brien rides Tapestry, with Ryan Moore on Wonderfully and Seamie Heffernan on likely pacemaker Perhaps.
In the opening mile maiden Aidan O'Brien runs three newcomers: Joseph O'Brien rides Dazzling (a full sister to Roderic O'Connor), with Ryan Moore on Shell House (a Galileo half-sister to What A Name and Diabolical) and Seamie Heffernan on Sparrow (a half-sister to Wonder Of Wonders out of a sister to Galileo).  Dermot Weld's filly Sparkle Factor will be hard to beat following a very promising first run at Naas.
By:
BJG
When: 30 Aug 13 12:06
Last Updated: August 30 2013, 11:58 BST
View from connections ahead of the Moyglare Stud Stakes at the Curragh on Sunday.

Kiyoshi: Moyglare hopeful
Kiyoshi: Moyglare hopeful
Related ContentLive horse racing resultsRacecards and formLatest non-runnersLatest video form
Kiyoshi makes her planned return to action after a 10-week absence in the Moyglare Stud Stakes at the Curragh on Sunday.

Connections of the Charlie Hills-trained filly decided to put her away and wait for this Group One over seven furlongs after she won the Albany Stakes in scintillating style at Royal Ascot.

She faces six rivals as she attempts to give British raiders back-to-back Moyglare victories after Richard Hannon's Sky Lantern landed this prestigious prize 12 months ago.

"It's been the plan to run her in this race since Ascot," said Lambourn-based Hills.

"It's an obvious race to go for, it's an ideal stepping-stone and she's been pleasing us ever since Ascot, but she needs to prove it again."

David Redvers, racing manager to owners Qatar Racing, is hoping the ground is not too quick for the daughter of Dubawi.

"The filly's flying over on Saturday and Charlie couldn't be happier with her," he said.

"She's got the best form on offer this year and we just hope she runs her race. If she does we're hopeful she will be very competitive.

"The step up to seven furlongs should suit her ideally.

"My only worry would be if the ground was too fast being by Dubawi, we wouldn't want to jar her up or anything, but I'm sure they will be doing an excellent job on the ground to make sure there's no jar in it."

There is a second British challenger in Rizeena, who has been pretty busy since winning the Queen Mary Stakes at the Royal meeting.

The Clive Brittain-trained filly followed a second place to Lucky Kristale in the Duchess of Cambridge Stakes at Newmarket's July meeting with a creditable third to the speedy American juvenile colt No Nay Never in the Group One Prix Morny at Deauville.

"She's in great form. Clive's (Brittain) very happy with her training, her weight is good and he's never been more pleased with her," said Bruce Raymond, racing manager to owner Sheikh Rashid Dalmook Al Maktoum.

"Obviously it's going to be tough with Charlie Hills' horse, who looks a worthy favourite, but our filly is very good.

"She ran very well at Deauville last time but this seven furlongs looks most suitable for her."

Debutante Stakes winner Tapestry is Aidan O'Brien's main hope having been supplemented for 22,500 euros at the confirmation stage.

The Ballydoyle trainer is seeking a seventh Moyglare victory.

"It was always the plan to go there (Moyglare) with her," he told At The Races.

"She's won her two starts very nicely. She's in good form and everything seems very well with her.

"It looks a good race and it will be a good experience for her."

O'Brien also saddles Wonderfully and Perhaps, who were first and second respectively in the Group Three Silver Flash Stakes at Leopardstown six weeks ago.

Dermot Weld lifted this prize back in 1987 with Flutter Away and looks to Carla Bianca, who was runner-up to O'Brien-trained odds-on favourite Australia over the course and distance on her only start in July.

"It's a big step but she ran very well at the Curragh. She's progressing and should represent us well," said the Rosewell handler.

"She's still pretty immature, I expect her to develop over the winter and I think she'll be well up to Group One level next year."

John Murphy's maiden Touch Of Snow, who has yet to win in six starts, completes the septet.
By:
Stevie Gerrard
When: 30 Aug 13 12:16
Yes kind of agree with Hills about the ground. Could be a worry if really quick. was just good really after watering and early rain at Ascot. Although having said that Dubawi strike rate on g/f 18% compared to 14% on both and good and good to soft but 0/17 on firm. A/E 1.16 best on g/f. 1.01 good. 0.98 g/s. which surprises me really as I always have him down as a soft ground sire.
By:
Try My Best
When: 30 Aug 13 14:27
Only 2 winners of the Moyglare gone on to win the !000G since 1973 i think. Not a great record that. Tapestry into 11/8 now and the faster the ground the better. No rain please.
By:
jamesp
When: 30 Aug 13 14:38
Yes, only two Moyglare winners have gone on to win the Guineas in recent years, but one of those was Sky Lantern this year!  The last one before Sky Lantern was Sayyedati (trained by Rizeena's trainer Clive Brittain), who won the Guineas in 1993.  Good to firm ground without any jar will be fine for all the fillies.
By:
Try My Best
When: 30 Aug 13 17:21
C Hills 3 winners in last 14 days out of 35 runners, O'Brien 9 winners in last 14 days out of 32 runners.
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