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Figg, they are supposed to take quite a few readings.
i suggested a " Lite" reading across the course at the 2/3 and 4 furlong poles, which would take up less time, but still give us a picture of how the course read throughout the day. Imo these are the most important ones as these are the points at which the speed takes over and a horse will be racing at its optimum speed and thus by definition, the most important factor of the state of the ground at its most telling point. |
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THE Turftrax GoingStick becomes mandatory on all British racecourses from today, although some clerks of the course and trainers remain sceptical about its merits.
The hand-held instrument, which scientifically measures penetration and shear over different parts of a racing surface to produce a going reading, has been on trial for the past two years. Wetherby's clerk of the course Jonjo Sanderson said yesterday: "The new instruction, which comes into force at the start of the year, stipulates we have to give one reading prior to declarations and another before racing. "One will therefore be taken on the morning of the day before racing or the afternoon before that, and the other on raceday." Although widely considered a step in the right direction - and certainly more scientific than the clerk of the course's walking stick - it does have its detractors. Sanderson said: "I'm not its biggest fan, because in my opinion there cannot be a set figure that will give a correct reading for all 60 racecourses, because the soil structure on each track varies so much. "A reading of 6.7 on one track may mean the going is soft, but on another course it could signify it is good. A certain reading is not standard across the board. Ideally, you'd need to calibrate every stick for each different racecourse. "Last week at Wetherby, for example, it read 6 down the back straight, which was good to soft, and other parts were 7.9 or 8, which was good, but on parts on the new course it was reading 11 or 12, which meant it was firm! It clearly wasn't." Sanderson added: "It would be wrong to dismiss it, as we need a mechanical device to assess the ground, but it has shortcomings and I'm not convinced that the Turftrax stick, which we have now had to buy after its two-year trial, is the right instrument." Trainer Tom Tate said: "In my opinion it is useful in an attempt to create a standard, but courses do vary due to their sub-surfaces and therefore it can be misleading to make direct comparisons between different racecourses. "Also, most trainers make allowances for the 'management approach' of racecourses. For example, a track could have more than 100 readings which say that the going is good to soft, and either ignore, or take very few readings on, the parts the clerk knows is good to firm. "You can almost make it read what you want it to read. Overall, though, I would say it's a step in the right direction." ..................................................................... remember this article from start of the year? |
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Yes Zil, I'm just wondering how long it takes for them to get an average reading?
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It depends on the clerk, i would imagine, Figg
In the case of Kirky and the bint that was at Ayr i would imagine that as much time as a kettle takes to boil judging by the history of readings at the respective tracks. Seamus would just stick water on if it told him 10 or 5 seriously, i would say a couple of hours although that is a guess |
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I haven't taken much notice of the turf since we have been having more aw.
Decided to look at Ayr for some interest, check the going, wtf is the stick reading all about? Are they deliberately taking the pish now? I will wait for Wolverhampton, this stinks to high heaven. |
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If i go into my garden and measure the resistance of the fork and then go into someone elses garden with a TOTALLY different soil structure, but get the same resistance measurement are these measurements different???
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Figgis
If i remember correctly, COC from Donny stated it took him about an hour and half |
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"A reading of 6.7 on one track may mean the going is soft, but on another course it could signify it is good. A certain reading is not standard across the board.
The resistance measurement needs to be different for it to indicate a difference in resistance just like you get with the Ascot straight and round courses, if that measurement is the same, then it is the same surface condition on both courses Why people think it is not is beyond me It is like saying a boiling kettle in York will be a different temprature to boiling kettle in London - Friggin idiotic. |
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I agree with Empty
It's common sense. Stick measures resistance........that's what we want to know, not some blirt's opinion of what that resistance may be. Especially if 'some blirt' answers to no one & doesn't have his or her findings independently verified! |
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All the stick has really led to is sloppy ground, on top of a surface that can vary in firmness, so the top gets kicked off.
I cannot remember such a year when i have seen it occur so often, and imo, makes the sport less appealing |
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What do you make of the times though Jonjo? They seem much nearer to the official description than what you'd expect with a reading of 5.7. Even if you allow for possible effects of the wind (which I'm not aware of yet) and the only rail movement was one that actually increased distances by around 10 yards.
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zilzal1 23 Oct 17:54
"All the stick has really led to is sloppy ground " I think it is the Garbage in, garbage out syndrome that has led to the MUD racing Zil |
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One is on Slop, one is one fast Dirt, one on firm Turf
horse runs all 3 in 70 secs Do the times tell you the surfaces are different??? |
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Slop is a description for a dirt course so I don't see that it can be compared to a turf course.
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Horse runs 100 on slop, 100 on Pro- Ride - 100 on Firm turf
Do the speedfigures tell you the surfaces are different???? |
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Also watching the races on RUK I think the very worst you could call the ground is good to soft based on the visual impression.
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empty 23 Oct 18:18
Horse runs 100 on slop, 100 on Pro- Ride - 100 on Firm turf Do the speedfigures tell you the surfaces are different???? Of course not, but the going allowance/track variant that led to those figures would usually provide some decent evidence. |
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Ayr have called 5.3 heavy in the past
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Does a horse running 6f in 70 secs on slop, Pro-ride and firm turf tell you it has run on three totally different surfaces???
Of course not, so why in gawds name would you rely on overall time o tell you that it did. |
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Yes Zil, I would've expected the ground to be closer to that description with that reading. People can say that times don't always indicate how fast the ground is, on account of pace of the race, technically that's true, although personally I'd say in mostcases it's possible to get pretty close. One thing that can't be disputed though is that times do tell us the limits of how soft the ground is.
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Plenty of the wet stuff due mid morning onwards at Donny. Will be interesting to see how the ground goes and how it is reported back to the punters :)
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In depth going reports from all courses today JC via their tv partners ;)
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The more I look at these going reports combined with the stick readings the more confused I get m8. It just dont add up does it ??
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JC
Horse racings industry aim is to empty your wallet mate, not male sense |
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*make
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Sad story is m8 that as you have gone to great lengths to explain with the going stick they probably have the perfect tool for the job. All they now need is a shift change at the tea party to get the right operators in :D
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Sad thing is JC i think is those that run are inside the sport cannot see that thier actions and/or lack of, are contributing to it's downfall.
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An independant organisation whose sole responsibility is to acurately record going stick readings which is colated back through a course map with time windows, would be the only way to get it to work in the manner with which it would benefit all parties ( except the levy and the bookmakers :D )
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Funny thing is, proper gping detail etc is not going to turn the losers into winners
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:^0
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Sterling work on here.
I just wondered how the bookies' odds compilers work given these inaccurate going reports. Maybe it's worked into their "margins" or "they" are given the inside on what the going really is. |
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After watching another episode of the ML i am convinced this program does not help people take an interest in racing, after watching another episode of Get In i'm convinced this program does not help people take an interest in racing and like RUK it is subs so it is limited in helping people take an interest in racing
How does racing expect to beat or compete with soccer, NFL, Cricket when it's product is unsold to the audience?? |
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It doesn't Empty, but no one at the BHA will grasp the nettle & actually call the 'marketing of the sport' for what it is......A total irredeemable shambles.....
Picture rights: They need to reclaim their rights (by force if necessary?) & ensure that funding is made available to transmit these pictures free to air, via a medium that treats the viewers as grown up gamblers..... No one will tackle this issue though, thanks to inflated salaries & the lack of will to 'upset a few people' While they try to do everything by concensus, we will continue to have a sport run by a toothless regulatory body, more interested in absolving itself of all responsibility for ruining this sport than for actually running/regulating it. ************************** Figgis 23 Oct 17:54 What do you make of the times though Jonjo? They seem much nearer to the official description than what you'd expect with a reading of 5.7. Even if you allow for possible effects of the wind (which I'm not aware of yet) and the only rail movement was one that actually increased distances by around 10 yards. Figgis, sorry for not replying sooner to this point: I have said before on here that unless the clerk has a proven track record of taking readings as late as possible & providing accurate data, they will continue to do just as they like & call the readings whatever they like... I beleive in the going stick in so far as a maching/implement that actually measures 'resistance' will do just that, but if the person taking the readings has another agenda, (as clerks do, through no fault of their own) & it is not independently verified, we are on a hiding to nothing.... I wont knock the stick/penetrometer until there are some guidelines over use & it is proven not to work. Which I cant see happening. Set times for the taking of stick readings & they should be taken independently, with ALL data published, otherwise, a clerk can do as they like.......simple as that. Linley should be all over this like a rash, but there's no evidence to suggest he's even taking half an interest..... He was surprised at what was highlighted about Thirsk in the summer, why the hell wasnt he already looking into it? Isn't this his job????? EVERY TIME a clerk calls the going something different to the scale on the going stick says what it should be, LINLEY ought to be asking for an explanation & this should be posted on the BHA website. |
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I just cannot see how racing expects to attract interest in racing when it is not done in a Professional manner like others sports JJ
The thinking is mindboggling tbh. |
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It's not mind boggling Empty, this sport is currently run by extremely rich cretins who think the likes of Thommo, Fat Mac et al are amusing & patronisingly think that people 'beneath them' are best served by this shambles....
Imagine football being run/presented to the public in this way..... It simply doesn't gel in the mind does it, because it wouldn't be allowed..... Vested interest RULES ALL in this sport right now & bear in mind, ANY media offering pertinent analysis of this sport at present WOULD HAVE TO raise questions about 1. Gross Profits Tax & the long term funding of the sport 2. Inaccurate going reports/forecasts 3. Scandalous Prizemoney Levels 4. Integrity (see point 3) 5. The suitability/fitness of those who run this sport to continue to run it. Where are the current lot going to go if they got their just deserts & got booted out of the sport in favour of people who would cherish it's heritage & run it as it should be run? |
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Has anyone thought of posting "marker" horses for as a guide to the going (it's a good excuse to berate the trainer when he gets it wrong!)?
I suggest these marker horses would be high in the betting. For instance Noble Alan is said to need top of the ground at Aintree today. Connections are keen to build his confidence up and surely would not be risked on wrong ground at 4/9. |
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You cannot increase revenue JJ if you don't sell the product professionally and it is this i am thinking as mindboggling.
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jonjo 24 Oct 10:06
It's not mind boggling Empty, this sport is currently run by extremely rich cretins who think the likes of Thommo, Fat Mac et al are amusing & patronisingly think that people 'beneath them' are best served by this shambles.... Imagine football being run/presented to the public in this way..... It simply doesn't gel in the mind does it, because it wouldn't be allowed..... Vested interest RULES ALL in this sport right now & bear in mind, ANY media offering pertinent analysis of this sport at present WOULD HAVE TO raise questions about 1. Gross Profits Tax & the long term funding of the sport 2. Inaccurate going reports/forecasts 3. Scandalous Prizemoney Levels 4. Integrity (see point 3) 5. The suitability/fitness of those who run this sport to continue to run it. Where are the current lot going to go if they got their just deserts & got booted out of the sport in favour of people who would cherish it's heritage & run it as it should be run? In other words JJ, racing is contributing to it's own downfall Mindboggling innit!! |
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It doesn't surprise me Empty.....
As long as they (the rulers) are 'doing alright' it wont enter their heads that there is a problem. Hence the cut of prizemoney at the lower end without scarcely a cough - They arrogantly assume that owners (who pay just as much for horsefeed as those higher up the food chain) will just contnue to run their horses straight, because they will NEVER grasp this sport is in crisis until it affects their own incomes....We are not talking about the best business brains here, most of them are there thanks to accidents of birth, or knowledge of the funny handshake.... These are the people who blithely agreed to GPT without any thought for it's wider reaching ramifications for a regulatory body & came out of 'tough' negotiations with the high st firms with Chris Bell saying he wanted the agreement for five years (lol). Take their cars/petrol allowances off them & you might see someone actually give it some thought..... |
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Just getting back to the post about wetherby at the start of the year where the track was reading 11 or 12 according to the clerk on the relaid part of the course.
He was saying it can't be firm but it was actually just telling him that the penetration and sheer =11 or 12. Now it might not be firm in the old way of walking the track and poking the stick but obviously the resistance in the soil when you are pushing in the going stick and pulling it back suggest there is plenty of resistance, the soil maybe more compact or whatever. Not that I know anything about soils, i'm just guessing. I don't think you'll ever get official descriptions, readings and times to all tie up. What the punter has to work out is which description or reading is most likely to reflect what the horse is feeling underfoot. |