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"sparrow"..................My late friend Con Murphy tried a similar stroke at Mullingar dog track. If there is an account of it on "Google", you must read it....hilarious.
Incidently, there was a horse called "Mullingar Con" trained by Barney Curley....it was owned by a Greyhound Derby winning trainer. |
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Mr Memory. Yes there is an account on a website called Abbeyfeale online. I am just about to read it. Thank you.
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Mr Memory. A very good read. It seems that as in the Dagenham Coup hardly anybody got paid.
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"sparrow"..........They had a lot of fun though.
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Mr.Memory,You are exactly right about the cigars.Wally Margolis +Harry Ridley had an office in Dean St.the smoke was so thick you couldnt see let alone breathe.Yonnie Joseph had the cigar shop on the corner of Leicester Sq.opposite the Hippodrome.
Sparrow,did you know a man named Plum?Was the dog in the Dagenham coup called Prego? |
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Whitmarsh. I did not work there very long. As to the Dagenham race it was won by Handsome Lass with Buckwheat being the odds on favourite.
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In the early sixties,one saturday morning,a dog called Prego owned by Les Swaby,a top judge at Harringay,won a long distance race at 40/1.It was "knocked out"to this price by the track bookmakers and the money was put on in the many independent betting shops that had recently opened up.It was a long distance race and the dog was an out and out stayer who had only ran over the short trip.The two obvious dangers were withdrawn and it was a four dog race.The only bookmaker that refused to pay was**Macdonald but when they objected to his license he took legal advice and paid.
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I knew Harry Tough-House who used to do a bit for Chummy.In his later years Chummy owned quite a few horses most with the Chummy prefix.Like John Banks he also liked to name them with something in common to people he knew.Whites Umbrella was named after John Whites catch phrase at the time ....Look for the White Umbrella.
Goingback to Bob Ward if there was betting on "The King of the Sellers"how would you bet Bob, Jack Hardy and Ken Payne? |
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When Betting shops first opened, Jack Swift had the local one; rather large premises. Taken over by WH after a few years. That was gone when I revisited the area a few years ago.
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Excellent thread Mr. Memory,great stories and a great insight of a forgotten time.I agree with your observation"How long would the moaners on here have lasted"This thread certainly beats reading the sunday papers.
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"Wood Lane"....................What a smashing user name....it predates White City tube satation & evokes memories of trolleybuses & "Altcar" formbook vendors.
I have really enjoyed the exchange of nostalgia & "whitmarsh" has filled in huge gaps in my knowledge. It is all harmless, albeit trifle boring to some people. Park Royal has been closed for over 40 years............it does not seem that long ago. Best wishes. |
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Swaby was a good judge and was the making of Alan Isherwood he told him all his secrets. Alan was good in his own right but Swaby made him great.
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A tremendous thread, the best on here for for a long time. New Cross was just before my time but to hear all the stories from Whitmarsh, Mr. E and Mr. Memory et al has been a plaeasure to read. Well done all concerened.
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Southwark Star,
In later years some "good judges" had the luxury of working for multi national bookmakers and knew what had been backed and by whom through the day when they turned up at the dogs at night. |
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Talking about how the old bookmakers arrived at the names they traded in,Ruby Huntman of White City and Harringay,bet in the name of H. Alper.Henry Alper was partners with him but when they went their seperate ways Ruby carried on in the H.Alper tools.Henry Alper later owned triple Champion Hurdle winner Persian War,in the West Ham colours.
Dominic Sabini once told me the story of how he traded in the name of Jack Remo.He said that he was waiting on the corner of the street and decided that the name on the side of the next horse and cart to come round the corner would be the name he made a book in. The iceman,Jack Remo turned the corner.Dominic made a book for about sixty five years. |
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Mr.Memory,Park Royal, yet another London dog track sadly gone.I can remember coming out of the snooker hall and making my way to the the newspaper pitch,where just after ten, they would sell all that nights London dog track results.It was a very long strip of paper costing 2d.
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whitmarsh.. spot on with that dominic sabini story, he told me that as well , is he still alive?
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"whitmarsh"...............I was never a snooker player, but I did know the late Ron Gross from the age of 10 or 11. Ron played in the first World Championship at the Crucible when he was given the last place as the reigning Amateur Champion..............he owned dogs at Wembley for many years.
I did not play billiards either, but Leslie Woods told me that he had some success in the Victoria Club handicaps. He put his success down to the ivory balls that were brought out for these events....they played faster than the normal ones used. The only handicap that I can remember was when Joseph Kagarlitski reached a final against Harry Hyman......almost everyone in the racing game wanted Joe to win, but alas it was not to be. |
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I understood from my Gran that Snooker Halls, Bookmakers and Greyhounds were synonymous in the 30's and 40's. The Harlington corner mob used to frequent the place she was in.
On another subject, racecourse characters/cadgers. I remember a chap in the 60's to 80's who was forever scrounging lifts, giving tips to young people telling them he was "so snd so's" jockey's uncle. He would go anywhere where a lift took him, even to the short-lived evening Staines Whippets in the 80's! Trying as usual to get a "credit" bet: "down to Stan". Never saw him with money! Used to carry a folded raincoat on his wrist. It must have been his life, interesting I'm sure! anybody know him or what became of him? |
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"expat"...............Was he the "Stan" that inhabited Wimbledon..........& Ascot........& Kempton ? I never saw him without a pint in his hand.
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marvellous memories
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Mr M. That is correct, seemed to enjoy his drink, and as I mentioned he would be at Plumpton or wherever in the afternoon, and if a lift took him to Wembley or Slough or even Staines he would go there. Thick head of dark hair, and raincoat folded on his lowe arm. One of those characters of the course; and all the "information" (his)! People like the runners man previously mentioned, and "Graucho" the chalk, Woody the stools, all now missing. Lost characters and fond memories!
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"expat"...............Our memories are better than the current reality of the soulless atmosphere of the Ring & racecourse.
The noise, hustle, bustle & human contact have gone & so have the tictacs like Mickey Fingers & Josh, Johnny Mac, Hokey, Dessie, Rocky & Billy Brown. If you were on speaking terms with them, you could usually find out what was going on. Betfair, the Exchanges & the so called modernisation of the Ring have got a lot to answer for.....our racecourses are beginning to resemble the French model more & more.. |
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Mr Memory Rocky hasn't dissapeared he bets under the name Kelross at Newmarket, Fakenham and many other places I'm sure. A diamond.
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"lumponlarge"...........I am delighted that "Rocky" is still part of the scene......I hope that he is doing well.
I would imagine that Billy Brown is still out there somewhere. |
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Glad to hear Rocky is still around: a gent. As was Freddie Devison who partnered Desi in the pink card D & F outfit, so pleasant with me. Johnny Mack "blue", + hip flask in coat, and Mickey with the yellow cards. It is so soulless now, in comparison, but that is true of most working places now. Personality is not encouraged!
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"expat"..................I have found two twist cards in a drawer.........."Rocky" red Cheltenham October 2000 & "Micky" yellow Ascot October 1999. Billy Brown used white ones.
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Have got Rocky`s twist from Dettori Day signed by both the great men.
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Another character I remember was I think, a freelance workman tic-tac by the name of Dickie Bird; a bit of a character also!
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Sweet reminiscences. These characters came alive in the hustle and bustle of the racecourse market, where all the classes were thrown together, an intoxicating mix.
More 'faces' : Lulu Mendoza, Michael Mendoza R.I.P, Jimmy the One, Frankie 'row for the shore' Cohen, Jackie Cohen, Johnny White Snr., Bill Gillings, Chrissie Brown, Judge Michael Hancock, Peanuts, Little Himey, Gerry Parker and all the others, thanks for the memories. |
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Clapton,Dominic died 11 or 12 years ago,aged 88.
Mr. Memory,Leslie Woods is in a retirement home off of Harrow rd.He came to London from Yorkshire and his first job was in the Embassy club as a waiter,thats how he got the nickname "the baked taiter".He had many a game of snooker with Ted Binns in the Victoria Club.Is Harry Hyman still alive?I last saw him years ago in the cheap ring at Romford.Philly Marsh was the clerk,Raphie was betting and though it was Harrys pitch he was the tic tac.I think Ginger Newman was on the bag. Expat,Stanley Porter had a brother ,Tommy,that made a book in the cheap ring at Wimbledon and Catford in the name of Rank.They had another brother,Ronnie,who kept chickens and if I told him a winner he would give me half a dozen eggs for my greyhounds.They were such good eggs I used to eat them myself.I think Stan was the black sheep. |
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I was at Harringay one night and a security man I knew said a man that I knew couldnt pay his bill in the restaurant,so I went upstairs and there was Stan with his head hanging in his bowl of apple and custard very drunk.I ended up paying his bill,cleaning him up and putting him in a cab to Walworth Rd., along with a carrier bag containing a pigs head off the hog roast stall at Sandown that afternoon.Knowing Stan he probably had that for his breakfast the next morning.Their father,from Walworth Rd.,always used to be at the ponies at Hawthorn Hill and Northolt.Hewas a good driver of trotting horses and pacers.
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"avontuur"...............It is good to hear from you & I go along with your observations.......when the Government started to give out knighthoods for bike riding, I considered you to be a prime candidate.
Perhaps you can help over Harry Hyman & Philly March.................when I last heard, they were both turned 90 & still working, although Harry had been involved in a car accident. Your mention of "Jimmy the One" took me back nearly 40 years. |
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Whitmarsh, thank you for your recollections, and enlightening me. I bumped into Stan on many occasions, usually reasonably oiled, but not problematical, he could pop-up anywhere. A lot of bland people around now, comparatively that is. My main track in my early days was Slough, I started occasional forays to Wimbledon when the cheap ring was then on the first bend, but I cannot quite remember the Bookies names, although "Atlantic" comes to mind. There were so many more opportunities and places to go then, even more in your time. For me Northolt was always an estate, bud did see ponies once at Hawthorn Hill on the Ascot - Maidenhead road in its latter days.
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whitmarsh,
do you know if Les Swabey is still alive? I asked Alan Ish last year and he didnt know. Stamford Bridge was another track where Les got plenty. Re The Singer, I saw him in the box at ascot, they were on a cruise when his wife died. Dennis hadnt changed a bit. |
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I last saw Les Swabey 15 or 16 years ago by chance.I had a blue and white ** who had gone in season and I brought her home from Catford before giving her to Stan Kennett to trial in at Hackney.I was walking her and met Les,he looked well but said he never goes to the dogs or even follows them in the paper had no interest in the game any more.I never saw or heard of him again.Johnny Phillips,the old boxer,was his right hand man at Stamford Bridge and Harringay.When Harringay closed I used to see him at Hackney every meeting but when that closed I never saw him again.A very nice man,does anyone know if he is still alive?
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Mr.Memory,do you remember the White City punter Jimmy Rogers?Variously known as Jimmy the wig,Burnley Jim,or Manchester Jim.He gave me his card one day,he termed himself James Rogers,Bloodstock Agent.
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"whitmarsh".................I cannot recall him, but I remember "Manchester George" in his white overcoat..............last spotted in Marbella.
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Mr.Memory,I spoke to someone last year who saw Manchester George in Fuengirola........doing some charity work,no doubt.
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Was flicking through the tv channels tonight, and the old Joan Collins film The ** was showing, in the closing scenes it was showing a race from Lingfield, the cameras spanned across the betting ring to show the Tic Tacs, it focused on Billy Brown working, he had a big curly perm and looked about 8, cant remember him with that curly hair!
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