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IanP and Mr Memory I started in the game with PTS.
Had the interview the week after Blakeney won the Derby. Hours spent settling all those multiple bets Harlequin, Shuffle, Dominoes, RTC. |
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Catford Toteboard,
I am sure if the local historians found out when the houses round Perry Vale were built in the thirties on open land that would have been were the meetings were held.There were a few older houses nearby because in one of them you could get a sunday dinner during the break. |
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Mr.Memory,
The R.B.E.S did marvellous work for the infirm and old workmen at the races and dogs.In the days before Social Security it was a life line during freeze ups and illness especially for men with families to support.Bill took over the Presidency from the late Willie Burt who traded in the name of Geo. Symonds.It is very commendable that you used to do this charity work. Do you know if Carrie is still alive?I used to always get a christmas card but recent years nothing. Did you know my dear friend Sonny? The tic tac at White City?Later years he worked in Mick Harveys betting shop before he moved down to Rustington.We used to talk on the phone every morning. |
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"whitmarsh".....I am ashamed to say that I do not know about Carrie......I will make some discreet enquiries.
I knew "Sonny" quite well...........always cheerful..........however, he sadly passed away a few years back. Mick Harvey told me that they played "straight down the middle" at the funeral. Bill gave me a copy of the Dinner & Dance brochure one year......the adverts were the lynchpin of the finances for the evening. I remember asking him who "Mr.Sufferer" was............the answer came back Danny Cooper Smith. People like Danny, Greville Baylis, Paddy Gallagher & Topper Robson were the shrewd punters of those days. |
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Thats right about Sonnys funeral, when he moved to Rustington he loved golf and bridge.I played neither.He was agood snooker player too, now I am 86, I can imagine him saying"you chalking your cue up for the hundred break?"We went to the funeral at Findon cemetery near where Gifford and Ryan Price trained.Sonny always had a joke to tell and was great company.Sonny had accounts with every bookmaker and he always used to get me on.He loved a bet himself and he named the first house he bought Sandiacre after the 1957 Cesarewitch winner.
Greville Bayliss was the husband of Katie** the T.v. personality,he died in tragic circumstances in Africa on holiday.He had an accident in the swimming pool and died on the way to hospital. Iwish I was a sufferer like D.C.S.he never stpped backing winners.I nicknamed him Dont Come Sunday. |
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Dont go back as far as you guys, I started gambling from middle 60s onwards and I look back on my memories fondly.. your era must have been great to be a part of, If you ever go racing nowadays you would cry.. totally empty, souless, no characters, ghost towns.. and total low class dross racing.
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Greville Baylis, he was an owner with Staff Ingham in Staff's early days. Probably second in line behind Stanley Wootton for Staff's card but none the less got his share.
I knew he died young, but didn't know the circumstances. |
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Topper Robson from Upper Poppleton near York was a very successful pro punter but wouldnt give a door a slam.Very mean man.Johnny the RAF "the Airman" used to put on for him.
Going back to the dogs two that always stick in my mind, because they done me some right favours punting were Almost Poisoned and Ginger Nuts, both Harringay trap one specialists. Almost Poisoned went to Stamford Bridge and they put him in a 1000 yard open one Thursday afternoon.I had a tenner at 25-1 and he led to the line,beaten a short head by the odds on favourite. |
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"Mister E"...............Danny Cooper Smith used to do the stable business on course for Staff Ingham.
Incidentally, the last time that I saw DCS............he was betting on Manny Kings joint at White City. |
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get thread - anyone on here have memories of Gloucester/Swindon ?
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Sparrow.
The posts about the old Epsom trainers jolted my memory about Jimmy Crockett who you enquired about in the Wite City thread.Asi said Jimmy worked for Ruby Huntman with whom Micheal Tabor began his career in the game in the Stratford office.Jimmy used to place the commissions for the shrewd Thrale yard at Epsom and in later years for Jackie Sirrett.Jimmy once told me he paid a monkey for his house in Gladstone St. Waterloo after a successful pre war touch.I went to that house for his funeral about thirty years or so ago. |
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Mr. Memory.
I have been puzzling my brains all weekend but I dont seem to recall Paddy Gallagher.Iremember a lot but I do forget a lot. Any clues? |
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Whitmarsh. I think you must mean someone else regarding Jimmy Crockett. In the White City thread I only mentioned my father clerking for the late John White and his brother Siddy.
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Sorry mate,I said I forget a lot.
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"whitmarsh"..............He used to keep company with Geoffrey Greenwood & had horses with the trainer who retired out to Garrison Savannah (I forget his name)
I saw him & Greenwood do Tony Haining up at Chepstow on a late card bet years ago. |
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"whitmarsh"...............The trainer was Bill Marshall.
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Mr. Memory,
Geoffrey Greenwood was a massive punter and a giant of a man.He was in the office furniture bussiness I think.He was a compulsive because he couldnt let a race go by, he would lay out as much on the "aways" as the meeting he attended.Bill Marshall was a genius of a trainer,4 and 5 year olds broke track records once in his care.The sprinter Raffingora and My Swannee are two that spring to mind. Still cant place Paddy Gallagher,I must be going. |
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I used to go to Wandsworth dogs years ago and Ive heard a couple of old timers talk of Perry Vale. Could you have been one of them Whitmarsh?
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Really interesting post, great memories from Mr M. as usual, and Whitmarsh. I also only old enough to have stated mid 60's. Quainton: I had some dogs with Ronnie Mills at Gloucester in early 70's. A true gentleman, stated off as a kennelhand at Wembley in the 50's and married in to the aristocracy. I hope this post goes on, an enjoyable read. Am off on holiday to-morrow, but will have to view it on the Hotel internet if I get the chance!
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Wood Lane,
I went to Wandsworth dog track two or three times to watch the boxing with my father.Jimmy Wicks, later to become a top boxing manager,was General Manager of the dog track at the time I believe. Mr. Memory, Was Paddy Gallagher the owner with Bill Marshall who had the light green colours with a pink sash?The man with those colours had a lot of horses in training with Marshall at the time.I cant say I knew the man though. |
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Mr Memory
Re your previous thread about a dog track at Mitcham. I got an aerial photo of it. As you said the old Sandy Lane ground was next door, and it was dwarfed by the stadium. It looked like at tight urn, but then long bends, Thanks very much. |
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Just like to say thank you to Mr Memory and Whitmarsh for such a wonderful and evocative thread. It's true that you don't know how much you had until it is gone.
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"Mister E"................Is it not a running track ?
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"Mr Memory"
Until I read the previous thread I was unaware of the dog track. The stands look impressive and dwarf Tooting and Mitchams stands. I lifted this description from the net. There appears to have been some sort of track around Mitcham Stadium which was used by Croydon Rovers football club in the 1950/51 season although the stadium existed as early as 1937 by which time it had covered grandstands down the whole of both straights and one of the straights was slightly extended. It may however have been a dog track. The infield was also used for Rugby League and in its later years for Irish Games (Hurling and Gaelic Football). The stadium was replaced by housing by the 1960s as it is not shown on an A-Z of the period and the location is now occupied by Ormerod Gardens and was on the other side of Sandy Lane to the football ground that is used by Tooting & Mitcham United FC. One of the stands was sold to Leyton Orient FC when the ground closed and the other one was also sold but need to check who to in Kerry Miller's book. |
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Mr. Memory, Did you know Jack Pinder,Jack The Judge,who made the tissue on course for about forty years.He lived your neck of the woods.
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"whitmarsh"..................You could pick up one of Jacks cards at Ascot from Hilda in the small bar by the entrance to the Rails. Horses priced & some marked with a dot, "C" or "W"
I knew him to speak to. "Careful" or "Wait" |
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Jack The Judge had a thankless task when you think of it.No early prices for a guide,he priced up every race every day on the southern circuit.He used to put hours in studying the formbook and had his own ratings systemwhich he updated nightly.Granted there wasnt so much racing then but he put some hours in.He attended most meetings with his son Malcolm,who started one of the first organic farms up in Norfolk before they were heard of thirty odd years ago.
Iremember that small bar it was always packed. John Power,Johnny The Viking,used to come out of that bar five minutes before the off with more bets than the other rails bookies had taken and they had been bettingfor fifteen minutes.Amazing how he used to rememberthem, he never wrote anything down.Terry Ramsden used to get in that bar. |
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"whitmarsh"............Bill always used to refer to John Power as "Custer"......I had a nice draw off him at Royal Ascot in 1974...he was betting in the front line under the name of "Sterling"
Charles St George had a bigger draw as the horse, "Fools Mate", was the last leg of a winning yankee.......as the "Sporting Life" said next morning..."Noted Owner wins £120,00 (or so) in a yankee" Dickie Gaskell was asked what it was like to lose that much on a bet......he replied..."Not me...the Firm" |
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Mr. Memory, With John Powers long blonde hair General Custer was a very good name for him.Sammy Sinkovitch who traded in the name of Sterling always had governors in the book.Going back to Jack The Judge how he started in the racing jobwas that he had a car hire firm in London after the war.He told me he was from the country and his people had bred work horses for the farms years ago.He started driving the Billy Phillipson firm to the races and on the way he would say"put me ten bob each way so and so horseor a pound win something else.Over time Bill realised he was a consistent winner and Bill got him to put prices to every runner every day.A few years later he sold the car business and started selling his card at the races.That was how the southern bookies got a tissue for their meetings.Billy Phillipson also made a book at Slough dogs,Leslei Spencer who was the senior rep for Wm. Hill for many years worked for him in his early days.
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"whitmarsh"..............Leslie was a good workman & became an excellent representative for the firm................the one drawback was that when Dorothy Squires came in for a bet, Leslie had to give her a kiss.
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"whitmarsh"............I could never beat Leslie.......if by chance I backed a 7/2 winner with him, it would be returned 4/1 or bigger.
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Great Mr Memory, Leslie was the greatest ever at laying under the odds. You would walk up to him and say " FAVOURITE PLEASE LESLIE " it would be 5/4 every where 11/8 for looking Leslie would reply " 6/5 " and you turned away Leslie would call you back " OK JUST FOR YOU 5/4 " and you would back it with him. Walking away from the pitch you have taken under the odds and you would think you had a bargain. Leslie was a master in the ring. A funny story I can remember, JAWS was backing the FAV 5/4 everywhere went into Leslie to fill him in at 6/5 asking Leslie for the FAV Leslie said 11/10 he walked away Les had guessed right again. I wonder how he would play today LOVED A BAR ONE AT THE DOGS. One of his favourite sayings was TEN PAST THREE, 10/1 bar 3. Great memories FANTASTIC. Just for the record John Mc worked for Sam Sterling!!
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Mr. Memory,Leslie owned the Ebor Hcp winner Western Dancer trained by Con Horgan.Horgan used to be head lad to Ryan Price in his heyday.
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"whitmarsh".........I have learned more from this thread than I ever did at night school. I never knew that Leslie even owned a horse, but I was at Cheltenham the day that Duggie Tyler won the Triumph Hurdle.
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Copper Beeches 50/1,trained by Dina Smith.
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Great stuff.
Jack's job was a real task. Pricing every race, easy today by comparison with exchanges. When Jack retired I recall him saying that his son was opening an organic farm, at the time I didnt really know what it meant. |
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Jimmy Styles, who traded in the name of Bob Stock,owned a Stewards Cup winner,Briarvanter.Itwas in the days when the race was run on tuesday the first day of the meeting.Briarvanter was home bred, out of Jims mare Briar Rose.Interestingly a horse named Jimmy Styles won on the flat last season,it was well named because Jim lived at Felpham and the sire of the horse was called Inchinor which is a town nearby.
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"whitmarsh"..I was at a May York meeting when a horse owned by Colin Webster won the first race at 33/1. As the horse passed the winning post, every eye in the Ring turned on Colin.
Years later he told me that the horse became soured with racing after a certain Classic winning jockey pulled its head off going down to a start. |
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Another rails bookmaker,John Banks,owned the Royal Hunt Cup winner Katmandu trained by Frank Carr landing a massive touch in the purple jacket,white cap with purple spots colours.
Charles St George was a very lucky owner and an even luckier punter.The black and white chevron colours were carried by such greats as Primera, Lorrenzaccio, Ginevra, Giacommetti and Bruni amongst others.He held Lester Piggott in high esteem and Lester often stayed at his Mayfair home when in London.He had a painting of Piggott in his house done by the world renowned portrait artist**Skipp.For a man so successful in racing he ended up a big loser in his business ventures. |
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"whitmarsh"................There was not a lot of love between certain personalities in the Ring. John Banks had a proposed name for one of his horses turned down by Weatherbys......"Greenwich Mean Stein"
Johnny Springer used to do a lot of putting on for Cyril. |