General Betting
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THE PREMIUM CHARGE MUST BE SCRAPPED
THE PREMIUM CHARGE MUST BE SCRAPPED
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Who pays 20%? I thought it was 40-60%.
I remember the 20% days with some perverse fondness. |
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frog2,
you make some good points, but overall you lose the argument. The exchange was not somewhere designed for professional punters to bet amongst themselves. It was designed to be a better value place for everyone, taking advantage of the way the internet can pool communities together en masse, in a way which wasn't possible 15 years ago. The biggest problem Betfair now face is that their sportsbook prices are in the end derived from their own exchange. How can they get the information signals, whilst minimising the profitability of winning accounts. That is all they really care about now. You have to give Betfair a reason to care about maintaining a good value, low commission product. At the moment, sure it would benefit you yourself if there was a return to no-PC and low commission, but that doesn't help Betfair or their bottom line. You have to convince them that the pie would be bigger if they cut the percentage of the pie they take. That may well be true in the long run. |
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1.01 layer I'm trying to find out about it as my account total charges are near the 20% mark, I thought it started at 20%? Not explained under the help and learning tab.
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http://www.betfair.com/aboutUs/Betfair.Charges/
According to the above premium charge is 40+% only if lifetime net profits exceed £250,000. |
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Yeah it starts at 20%. It won't make much difference to you yomomma if you're on 22% already.
Enjoy yourself while you still can. |
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The lunchtime kick-off between Liverpool and Stoke this coming Saturday...
Purple are charging zero commission, whilst here it is 5% and yet even though the prices available on the market (as of this moment), are identical, liquidity on it here is much,much higher. Throw in the usual arguments about Pinnys, Smarkets, Matchbook and so on and my assumption is that the vast majority of users here are simply not price sensitive. |
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Maybe many are not price sensitive funkymonkey, but of the users who are price sensitive, it is better to pay 5% and get your bets matched here, than have no bets matched at all, so some of this money will be price sensitive, but trapped.
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ballabriggs, I agree with you in certain markets, but in the example I have given, money is available but not taken whilst people continue to take the same price here, with the added expense.
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funky - will i have a grand on here @1.42 and let Betfair have 4% of my winnings and then another 50% next Wednesday OR a grand with PURPLE @1.42 and keep the lot - tough one
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If you were a PC payer, it would probably make more sense to take the 1.42 on here DOUBLED. You would lose say 50% of your winnings should you win, but also should you lose, you will then have a big safety net before the PC kicked back in, allowing you to not pay PC on the next set of your profits. Backing Liverpool at 1.42 on here is unlikely to be positive EV, but even if it was, the PC is about the rate at which you win. The positive EV on backing at 1.42 is likely to be fractional. So, in the long run, you're better off backing at 1.42 on bets like that on here.
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funkymonkey
15 Aug 13 14:33 Joined: 12 Jun 04 | Topic/replies: 368 | Blogger: funkymonkey's blog The lunchtime kick-off between Liverpool and Stoke this coming Saturday... Purple are charging zero commission, whilst here it is 5% and yet even though the prices available on the market (as of this moment), are identical, liquidity on it here is much,much higher. Throw in the usual arguments about Pinnys, Smarkets, Matchbook and so on and my assumption is that the vast majority of users here are simply not price sensitive. ................. I am not sure that they are not price sensitive. Betfair is attractive if you want to trade. Pinny and the rest are more attractive if you are a position player. Once commission is taken into account the odds are similar or a bit worse on Betfair for outright players. The limits are generally better on Pinny for an immediate bet. If you are a winner on PC then obviously Pinny is better. |
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ballabriggs , if doubled is paying PC , it is because he is good at betting . so in the long run he is better of betting on purple .
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plenty will bet on here pre-off so they can continue to trade in play. BF is still the only realistic option for such bets.
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I agree with that. If people want to trade Betfair is the place. The commission structure favours it.
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You have to give Betfair a reason to care about maintaining a good value, low commission product.
The prob. is that they can't see beyond the end of their noses. In the short term, all the share price (so much down from the float) needs is for them to hold onto their moderately price-sensitive losers. Then they get to stay a second-rank sportsbook w/ a growing presence among football traders in Europe. The greater the share of their profits made up by the sportsbook, the less they will be able to price-find (because they will deprive themselves of winners' information) and the less sharp their lines will be. Absent regulatory and anti-competitive measures, and always bearing in mind the friction of ordinary bettors' price-insensitivity, Pinny and the Asians will take over the world. Bf don't want to do this and aren't able to run the kind of exchange that does. |
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Imv the exchange model is a failure. It probably envisaged swing-trading, which could have been a success, rather than scalping, 'find-the-lady'-type algo-determined liquidity and time-sensitive botting.
Now the company no longer believe in trading. 'Bet and win' is the motto I now see on the site. |
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Betfair (sportsbook) aren't interested in price finding. Their margins are sky-high even compared to other traditional British bookies, let alone pinny and the Asians.
"Now the company no longer believe in trading. 'Bet and win' is the motto I now see on the site." Well the thing is that Betfair's charging structure was actively designed to encourage trading (pre PC, but even with PC trading is often cost effective). Any small straight bettor on big markets that is price sensitive won't have a reason to bet here. You have to be on sub 3% before Betfair can compete with Asians and pinny on big markets like Match Odds Football. Betfair will tend to be best value (after 5% commission) for markets with many runners like Correct Score and Half Time Score, but not for Match Odds. Granted there aren't that many small straight bettors that are also price sensitive, but a disproportionally large share of Betfair customers will be price sensitive compared to the traditional UK bookies' customers. |
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Obviously Betfair does now have low commission betting available on asian handicaps and total goals. This is just introduced but people still prefer to bet on match odds and over/unders even when the same odds are available on these markets - asians I can slightly understand because bf offer so many options it is confusing but people betting on over/unders should be encouraged to switch to total goals.
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bingo bongo, Betfair also ran a 1% deal on Asian Handicaps back in 2006/2007. That's why I started on here trading Total Goals.
Bet Volume will rise on the Asians/Total Goals, but it could take a while. |
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Total goals and asians on here have zero liquidity.
Chelsea V Hull at -1.75 can have £25 quid at 1.9 on Chelsea on Betfair. Then pay 0.5% commission. At the time of writing on in one bet (then price may or may not change and you can bet again) Pinny you can have £20,947 at 1.917 SBO you can have £6667 at 1.93 IBC you can have E13,980 at 1.93 No commission and no PC to pay if you win. |
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I'd guess that less than 5% of Betfair's customers know about these
new commission rates. |
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Betfair grew because it was remarkably better value to let us set prices between ourselves, and let Betfair take a reduced margin - having saved the cost of hiring its own traders and risk managers.
The dream of Breon Corcoran is to hammer small recreational gamblers, a la Paddy Power/365 etc, and suffocate the winners one by one. Ironically, he is probably right that this where the money is to be had - this is why 365 et al are making vastly bigger profits. Perhaps if Betfair had been a nasty sportsbook ten years ago, rather than now, this strategy would have left them as a clear market leader. As it is, there is the question of if the horse has already bolted. Whether or not it has bolted, there is more and more a wide open gap for a new entrant to take the value exchange approach. Purple haven't had the competence to do it, but in time, someone will. By that point, Betfair will have got through another 1 or 2 CEO's, and the spoils will go to the current incumbents. Fair enough, but not really much of an achievement to be proud of for anyone involved, in the way that people used to be proud of Betfair. |
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Like Yomomma I'm also on 22%, at some point I hope/expect/aspire to get to 20% - at which point I'll have £415 of PC allowance to use up. After that point I am hoping that bet daq has reached a liquidity level and has enough markets for me to do most of my betting over there.
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whats the latest on lads takeover of bet daq are the going in big time v betfair
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Like Yomama I thought that the so-called 20% PC maxed out at 22.5%. But it turns out that (on a 5% commission rate) that 22.5% is actually the minimum total charge, not the maximum.
eg if you win £500 and lose £400 you will have paid £25 commission on a net profit of £100. That is a rate of 25%, so you might reasonably assume that you have nothing to fear from the PC. Wrong! The PC takes that 25%, deems it to be 18.5%, and charges you an extra 1.5% PC! Your total charges are 26.5%. The result is that everybody with a commission rate hovering near 5%, who has already paid 26% of their lifetime winnings in profits, is subject to PC. This can easily happen by chance even to genuine punters pursuing a losing betting strategy. |
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...lifetime winnings in COMMISSIONS I mean
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...lifetime winnings in COMMISSIONS I mean
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Won 8k last week on the purple.Kept about 98% of that.Won about 6k on here and gave most of it to PC charge and hedgeing cost.Won on here abvout £70.This place is a joke now.
Total waste of time with less liquidity every week. |
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agreed - when is the change to PC happening ?
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It ain't (nap).
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Bf does not want skill-based winners, w/ the poss. exception of arbers and their hugely churning incumbent mass-volume layers.
But in the end the strategy might not be good for them, in that losers will finally have a reason to bet at the same site as winners. Winners will bet at the site that allows them to hold onto their winnings as much as possible, through easier charging or being able to get on; and the simultaneous presence of lots of different styles of winners leads to fine prices and liquidity, which are both good for recreational punters. I can't see at the moment why any winner (who isn't playing in obscure markets or isn't close to being a parasite) wd want to bet on bf. A small player can get the exchange price through BetButler at 3% comm. and usually a better price elsewhere in football or tennis. Someone looking to trade a price over time is a worse customer for bf than the point-in-time pricetaker and even then has other options. Bf are left with a reasonably price-sensitive backer who's not well-organised enough to have set entry and exit points. They've giving a sliver of their wins from this player to their incumbent layers. I'm not sure that the market is big enough for them to sustain marketing spend and come to overtake High St. firms in Britain and their online competition in other markets. |
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This has been an interesting read so far, which is a bit of a rarity these days on the forums. I have found myself nodding in agreement to a lot of it, and perhaps not so aligned with bits and pieces but diversity of opinion is what makes it interesting.
What does seem clear to me though, is the level of overall animosity towards BF has never been as high as it is currently. |
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Hear hear funkymonkey.
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gerard
Date Joined: 28 Aug 02 Add contact | Send message When: 21 Aug 13 18:48 Joined: Date Joined: 28 Aug 02 | Topic/replies: 1,413 | Blogger: gerard's blog It ain't (nap). like a small wager on that gerard(nap)  |
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Gladly.
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even monkey something changes by end of 2013
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Doubled I hope you have some inside info
Unless we are talking about pc3  |
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If you're genuine, you're on - subject of course to the definition of "something" - I wouldn't want to be paying out because those on 60% were getting commission free on the Albanian Volleyball....
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Albanian Volleyball surely counts
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won 600 quid here today on the cricket run lines... barring the -120 which goes next week.... but
+25.14 On D-a-q.... which im almost happier about! The people are finally speaking! |