|
By:
if it is in a market that this bot is being applied
|
|
By:
my books are always overround.
|
|
By:
I have to admit this looks like a lot of fuss stirred up to fever pitch with a lot of facts missing. The facts have clearly been muddied.
There is even confirmation that Betfair were going to do it anyway. But for some reason that post seems to have been ignored. 15 Dec, from a Betfair representative on this very forum. "What we probably will do at some point in the future is extend the bet matching algorithm to match a customer bets that could be matched, but aren't currently. " |
|
By:
They also stated
"There are no Betfair robots running on the sports exchange. If there was one we'd announce it, just like we did with the exchange games one." |
|
By:
without giving you the chance to cancel and match the best price...
|
|
By:
Golgafrincham
what facts have muddied then? |
|
By:
golgafrincham
what it didn't say was who would benefit from the overround from the large mistakes made that were quite often avoided previously |
|
By:
a lot of fuss
yes, best price execution is no longer applicable but lets not mention it, while we're at it let's increase our revenue stream |
|
By:
i see no overbroke markets all the way through the darts but one appears straight away on the cricket.
|
|
By:
"There is even confirmation that Betfair were going to do it anyway. But for some reason that post seems to have been ignored.
15 Dec, from a Betfair representative on this very forum. "What we probably will do at some point in the future is extend the bet matching algorithm to match a customer bets that could be matched, but aren't currently. "" -- Where is the thread where bot said that? |
|
By:
saw it.
|
|
By:
Golgafrincham-
"There is even confirmation that Betfair were going to do it anyway. But for some reason that post seems to have been ignored. Is that how Betfair are handling their announcements these days? Someone posts to a random thread on a completely different subject on a public forum months ago about how something will probably be done in the future possibly. And thats enough to warn us that the bet execution engine has been changed to leak our money into Betfair's coffers. "match a customer bets that could be matched, but aren't currently" ...should've read... "automatically ensuring that customer bets are matched at a worse price than is available, and pocketing the difference. Whilst pretending that the best execution system is still in place." ...and it should've been made as a formal announcement before we started losing money to it. |
|
By:
It seems unlikely to me that betfair would risk eroding their carefully and deservedly good reputation as a "whiter than white" betting exchange by nicking a few pence.
If the examples people have quoted were to be believed, then consider this one. There is a photo in a horse race. The markets ops person is taking a swig of hot tea when the photo result is announced, and it is suspended 3 seconds too late. The winner is offered to lay at 1.5. Someone tries to back it at 1.01. Betfair give the backer 1.01 but the layer is filled at 1.5. They couldn't do that, they wouldn't do that, it would be grotesquesly unfair, I am sure everyone will agree. But then if there were two horses in the race, and someone tried to lay the loser at 100, that is effectively the same thing if betfair matched the two bets and pocketed the difference, in the way that conspiracy theorists seems to think this fancy algorithm may work. |
|
By:
First of all thank you wiljon opening this thread i wanted to talk about this and was surprised that noone touched this until now.
I am matching manually quite a lot of an in-play soccer match odds market volume (only one market at a time). I noticed the change a while ago and it was quite clear something has changed dramatically. I was 99% sure (now 100%) it was a betfair bot. You can call it matching engine but the main thing is that it'll make minimum GBP 2-3 million a year for them by pocketing the overround - and i may well underestimate it. O.K. bets are mathced quicker, it's a plus. But i'm afraid the negative is quite big too. Example: you submit a lay at 10 instead of current price 8 creating an arbing opportunity for betfair. Until mid feb you had the chance to correct yourself for 1-2 seconds. Now you are not. Now fat finger trades has 0 chance corrected. The 5 sec delay is a great thing in inrunning markets, because they are so fast but you had the chance to cancel or modify your order if you had seen the moving of favorit market where the other prices are going but not from now. Now you are not able to modify cancel your order if you are in the zone of betfair bot arbing opportunity. Anyway from now/mid feb it's not a level playing field, you dont have the chance to compete. We have a delay of 5-8 sec but one of us doesn't. Okay they will say they just want more orders matched, that's great, they should do that with the same delay we have. They are stealing some chance away from us to win by not allowing to use up the 5 sec delay changing cancelling some bad order. This is not an exchange anymore. No exchange matches orders while profiting on the difference that the bid is higher than the ask. An exchange matches orders on preset rules price differences will profit the bidder or the ask size but not the exchange. The exchange is and should be only interested in volume. What should they do: They can operate this arbing bot but with the same delay what we have. Overround profit shouldn't be left in their hands it should be left for the lay or back order or for both. They would still profit from the increased volume/ commission. |
|
By:
getting better
why would anyone bother to make up these examples ? it has been happening definitely on tennis,probably on darts from my experience certainly haven't noticed it yet on horses but that horse example you quote is probably one of the reasons why not yet |
|
By:
dont know if its relevant as i havent read all posts, but a week or two ago people were having betss matched when there appeared to be no money.
Turned out that many users had a problem with refresh after an update and bets available were not being seen |
|
By:
This problem is now solved lippy, it isnt relevant.
|
|
By:
I think the reason this is ruffling so many feathers is that:
1) We, the public, can no longer profit from people who want to back/lay at 'inefficient' prices 2) Betfair (it would seem) are using their position to an unfair advantage However, for the majority of users, it is good, since it means more matched bets. The position has changed from the public taking advantage of overrounds to Betfair taking advantage. And, yes, it has happened to me too (found out in the last few weeks but put it down to coincidence) |
|
By:
3) There is ZERO chance of canceling a typo, unless the market is totally empty.
|
|
By:
yeah i know..
fat finger in 2 runner markets LAYS 1000 @ 22 (instead of 2).... the other side is evens to back. fully matched (assuming enough money on the evens on the other runner).... bf get 10,000 profit risk free. And fat finger guy has no chance to cancel his mistakes. There are going to be some horror stories out there :-( |
|
By:
is betfair going down the bookmaker route laying these bets ? with falling revenues and 95% of punters never used a exchange it might be the only way forward
|
|
By:
Whatever anger or concern this has caused for tennis bettors will be NOTHING compared to the effect of the cross-runner matching algorithm being implemented on horse IR markets.
No only will users miss best execution, they will lose the opportunity of capitalizing on mistakes made within single runner markets in the succeeding very thin timeslices after they have submitted their bet. For fluctuating overbroke books they will get what they ask for and no more. This is going to be the difference between profitability and otherwise for some people and will also take a huge element of fun away from the casual player. |
|
By:
one word for this greed if all punters on here have to have a 5 sec delay surely it is unethical that something is opperating on here without that delay at best.
|
|
By:
It would be more honest of bf to overhaul the interface completely to a back-only screen with a back/lay option adjusting from the quoted price and an overround showing 100% or something above 100%.
If these reports are true, they are not entirely a person-to-person site any more; they shd then front up as a bookmaker. |
|
By:
*before they put in their bets for the above (an attempted amplification of the point about best execution)
|
|
By:
I have just realised
even if betfair wanted to offer best execution ( which form the above examples seems they are not) I think they can not legally, as that would be pools betting ( no shade of grey - IMHO) |
|
By:
Can someone just confirm for me please (I didn't get a chance to experiment yesterday):
Are we saying: 1. That an overround bet is immediately matched. 2. That in the process of creating an overround best price execution is NOT implemented? #1 simply means zero seconds to cncel incorrect bets (as if someone with a 0 second delay were to scrape the pennies). #2 is a major issue and is entirely wrong (eg: I back @ 1.1 and get matched at that price even if 1.15 is available). |
|
By:
Not sure if it's coincidence or not, but since 18th Feb I've lost 35k in the in-play footie markets. Can I claim this back?
|
|
By:
1. True
2. We are not sure. Marcus asked for 1.10 and got just that when he should have at least had some 1.15. We still don't know where this bet was matched from - either the existing layers, or an order to back the opponent hitting the market. |
|
By:
It's no wonder Betfair have kept this develpment quiet, they know damn well what they are doing is unethical! I guess they have to get the money back they wasted on the SP product somehow?!
|
|
By:
I'm not sure it's unethical - it just means they've taken away the ability forother punters to take the overround - whether or not we like it is another matter. But Betfair certainly didn't like people hammering the system monitoring 1000s of markets 10 times a second.
If #2 is true then that's totally wrong. I can't see how it can be true. |
|
By:
I would like to see an announcement from BF on exactly what markets this is operating on.
Mistakes are now playing directly into the hands of BF. You don't get a chance to cancel and BF gets to keep whatever money the over 100% equates to and then they will charge the winner of the bet commission on top. Nice work if you can get it - and nobody else can as BF can match the bet instantly before it hits the market. |
|
By:
Agreed Betfairy if #2 is somehow true then that would be a nightmare.
|
|
By:
The Magician,
Why would offering Best Execution be considered pool betting? I see that Betfair's help pages state 'A user will always get the best odds available at the time of matching.' If Betfair matched someones lay bet against an opposing back bet offer, it follows that they should be passing on the very same equivalent odds. I'm not sure how pool betting comes into this? |
|
By:
Betfair's terms & conditions are confusing on the subject of who you are betting against:
"Subject to Clause 6.14 we do not accept bets ourselves, but we provide our customers with an automated facility for the placing of bets with each other." 6.14: "Notwithstanding any statement to the contrary in these Terms and Conditions, TSEL may elect to nominate one or more of its subsidiaries or joint venture companies to act as counterparty in respect of bets or offers for bets involving a certain category of its customers or a certain bet-type category (a "Nominated Counterparty"). If we do so in relation to our agreement with you we will take reasonable steps to bring this to your attention. In any event, where you attempt to match a bet with a customer who is bound by terms that specify they will bet against a Nominated Counterparty, you shall be deemed to have matched your bet with the Nominated Counterparty as if it were that customer to the extent of the amount so matched." So... surely if they are not offering 'best execution', then they are not directly matching your bet with one or more other customers. In this case, your bet has been matched by Betfair (TSEL). And the T&Cs state that they should have taken steps to bring this to your attention first. |
|
By:
The thing I don't understand about this thread is why one of you doesn't phone Betfair like I did. Then you would get some answers, like I did. Including why they didn't announce it.
I'll leave you to ponder the answers I got. At the end of the day I got so much abuse for trying to relay the message I have lost interest in trying to explain what explanations I was given. |
|
By:
I would rather betfair hoovered up on markets that went over/underround than some spotty bot user.
More profits betfair make the better |
|
By:
Haven't Betfair now made the dutching and bookmaking facilites in your software defunt, Scrip, now that they are operating in some markets?
|
|
By:
The thing I don't understand about this thread is why someone of obvious intelligence does not recognise any problem with this.
In tennis trading specifically you often do not want to get matched. Late calls, overrules, hawk-eye challenges can all lead to the "wrong" player winning the point. In the past it hasn't mattered too much because lots of people make the same mistake, including the ultra-fast boys, so you get matched at a decent price. Now we run the risk of getting matched out of the money. And the price differences can be massive. |
|
By:
"Now we run the risk of being matched out of the money"
should read "Now we run a much higher risk of being matched out of the money" some risk is always there, obviously |