Is this another example?

motorgp

Gardea 1.1
Olive 2.98

2.98 did appear on the board. I assume that 180 to back was meant to be a lay. The bet did appear on board but was taken in a nano second.

Clock beaten or bf?

lucklylucas is clueless. Unless both parties to the bet are matched at the exact same price there is a leak of money somewhere.

In the current system we've got one customer being given, for example, 1/6 and the customer being given 4/1. Its just classic arbing. The extra money is leaking to Betfair one way or the other.

luckylucas
you seem like a jovial chap
what makes you argue black is blue with about 100 other people who have numerous examples why it is clearly black ?

Where is bot these days? gone awol on the forums.

Bayes. 09 Mar 17:54


How about the evidence that I spoke to "bot" on Friday on the phone and he said they were making money out of it?


again if that is true.....get it **g out there into the wide world (speak to the racing post, the sun, the gambling commission) and betfair want shutting down!!!

Before I get paranoid about being ignored, can one of the main people who are saying BF is skimming please respond to my post of 09 Mar 16:55 on page 32.

I just get the feeling that because we know punters will not get the best price, people have turned that into an assumption that that is the price BF will use for the matching, pocketing the difference.

Meaningless without an example, so please take a look and tell me what I have not understood.

Excuse the fact that I typed 'late' instead of 'take' in the earlier post.

LL.

I will attempt to tell you why you should have the option to cancel. This IS NOT easy.

When you place a bet, as a human you are subject to a set of time issues. As a human, this is natural, we are all limited by this in some way and this time compromises the accuracy of your bet to some degree every time - ie it introduces an ELEMENT OF RISK.

Before you bet - there is the time between your last visual snapshot of the market and when you place the bet. You see an opportunity, mentally process it, decide to bet, and enter the bet. Some of us have better reactions than others, some use various bits of software - in every single case - there is a portion of time between seeing and doing.

Then there is a period of time between submitting and it hitting the market. This is a split second in the case of pre-off markets and 5 seconds etc. in running. During this time Betfair processes the bet, but the market info continues to change as does the event you are betting on.

These periods of time - are the critical elements in this discussion.

What is important here is the fact that all human users are subject to this, this includes the people who will be attempting to take your bets and capitalise on your mistakes.

In markets as they used to be, you would ALWAYS get a bit of time to cancel an error. The only time you would not get chance to cancel was if another user submitted a counter bet, during the periods of time you had to go through before you submitted. This is bad LUCK for you, good LUCK for them. Neither of you KNEW that the other was submitting that bet, and both had that time leakage. Lets forget this scenario and concentrate on times when you could cancel. Why could you cancel ?

You could cancel, because everyone else is a human user. (lets leave bots out of this - I consider these as other users, but it's a different topic)

Lets now examine the current state of affairs. The market has the same number of human users, all with said time leakage and human limitations, with the addition of one NON HUMAN USER.

This "user" is Betfair, they own the platform. this is the same platform that processes your bets. This user has no concept of reaction times or processing time when it places a bet.

--So lets get this straight, no reaction time. since it is in control of your bet, and it is the platform, when it takes a bet - it's described as 'matching' the bet, not placing the bet. it's part of it's job, so it does it instantly.

--Critically, there is no time between it processing and it reaching the market. No time during which events change.

There is NO RISK to this user's bets. Time lapse is part of human punter's risk, this user has none.



***
The key thought here is, if this user did not exist, you would have time to cancel. Given the fact this USER has advantage no other users have, this is WRONG.

Just because you asked for a price, it doesn't mean you should get it, IF - the person matching it has a massive unfair advantage over every other single user. This makes it morally wrong ! Wouldn't you agree ?
***


Another bit of time has been negated altogether by this development. This used to be important if you wanted to cancel in time, now it doesn't even exist ! this was the time between your bet reaching the market and you taking your next snapshot of the market to assess it's new level of risk.


Really I have done my best to try to describe why this is wrong. I wish I had taken a philosophy degree.

With all due respect luckylucas. The guy phoned me after I spoke to my account manager. I'd hardly lie about it would I? I had a 50 minute conversation with "bot" and he confirmed that they were taking the profit.

tonyg
there seems to be examples by those that have tried exactly 100 % books
that the cross matching would not take place whereas 100.1 % books it would
so in your example the bets would just sit there all unmatched

I changed my mind on something I said earlier.

It seems betfair ARE taking a position in the market. If payout is dependent on which runner wins then that is exactly that - taking a position. It is irrelevant in this sense that betfair cannot lose. When the book isn't equally green they are taking a position.

This is getting worse almost by the hour, just when you think it can't get any worse.

---------

Another thing to mention is that is doesn't matter whether betfair are being greedy or not - they are running a business. More important issues are at stake here, and to me betfair are displaying illegal activity on a number of accounts.

NO LL.

I am being matched WITH BETFAIR ! not with other users.

if you could explain to me how another user could math every single on of my exampe bets in the same amount of money exactly and with a 0.00 second processing time then please do. This is match with only one other player, every time it is BETFAIR and no one else.


If this was another user, then I would have time to cancel my bet ! how hard can that be to understand ?

My example has 104% on the lay side.

If you think it is matched with Betfair...then why wouldn't they just set up a seperate trading arm and allow them free dabs at all the markets...sweeping up millions and millions undetected ???

LL, answer my last question please... how is this possible if it is a human user.

Nothing you have said has explained how it is another human users.

The numerous examples.

How the bets are matched with 0.00 second processing.

The exact amount every time.

Everytime - only when there is a mistake.

I speak to my account manager and he tells me this is betfair matching these bets.

I receive a Q&A telling me that it is betfair matching these bets.

How much more evidence can you disagree with ?!

I'm all for alternative view, and waiting for evidence, but frankly we have been physically told it is them - by them, and we have the examples of it occuring every single time. And now, I've just described to you why we must have the right to cancel !

argh my brain is frazzled too LL :) good banter as always.. a challenging subject and nothing personal mate.

i wasted another 2 on the arsenal match trying this out.

market was:

under 4.5: n/o / 1.01
over 4.5: 3 / n/o

I backed over 4.5 at 5 - matched instantly of course even though there was no money there.

4696736633 2008-03-09
17:43 Fixtures 09 March Wigan v Arsenal / Over/Under 4.5 Goals / Over 4.5 Goals
Back 5.00 2.00 Lost (2.00)



I risked 2 to win 8.


Where is the betfair customer that risked 8 to win 2?

There isnt one.

I suggest you phone up and ask for your money back robin.

*would we find

MoneyBagger 09 Mar 18:17


ll - then you;re saying those other users can beat the 5 sec clock

they have already gone through it to have their money on the board.....you always get matched instantly after the 5 seconds if the money is there!!! :)

LL, why are you so determined to defend Betfair on this. I just don't understand your motivation.

Anyway, as things happened;

a) Robin risked 2 to win 8.
b) one or more Betfair users who had been speculatively trying to back a near certainty at 1.01
were matched at 1.01 (ie they risk 200 to win 2)

In this example, therefore, you are right : Robins 2 has gone to one or more Betfair users.

HOWEVER

IF five goals had been scored then

a) Robin would have won 8
b) one or more Betfair users would have lost 200.

WHERE DOES THE 192 GO ?

We seem to have had it confirmed that it MUST go to Betfair. That is why some people are calling it skimming; illegal;immoral, etc.

(There are some posters on here who for whatever reason I don't know, only like to stir and confuse, so the next person to post on here better not say something like "only the overhead skimmers will lose" : soup, golgafrincham and others : if you have nothing useful to say then just don't)