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Affecting the price before the clock has interesting implications with insiders in racing. Will this eventually become a more 'intelligent' matching system? The Magician may be able to comment on that one.
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Marcus
Instead of wasting your precious time discussing this why don't you get on to Betfair and sort it out with them direct. |
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Betfair making money using their client privilage and technology advantage is theft
there are no two ways about it |
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If you remove money from the market you will affect future prices ...
kirk st. moritz 07 Mar 15:08 Affecting the price before the clock has interesting implications |
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incidently i received this email from my account manager around 30 mins ago but it depressed me so much i havent posted it till now.
Here you go: Q. Are we now active our markets/are we running a bot? A. What weve changed is a core part of bet matching. When we get a bet request were now looking at all the customer bet requests it could be matched against, not just opposing bets on the same selection. It would be misleading to describe that as being a bot, or Betfair being active on our markets, as matching customer bets is what Betfair does. Betfair is not taking a position in the market as a result of this change. Q. Does this change raise any regulatory issues? A. As a matter of course Betfair highlights any changes to the code base or operations to the relevant regulator, in this case The Gambling Commission. Before any change was made Betfair approached the GC and explained the proposed changes in detail. Q. Why is this not happening on all markets all the time? A. Our first objective is not to cause any impact on bet matching performance, so the enhanced matching code is being rolled out gradually across our markets. Q. How does this affect the in-play delay/is someone bypassing the in-play delay? A. The new process works in exactly the same way as the old process: bets placed that are subject to the in-play delay are queued for the appropriate time, then their status changes to available to be matched. Only at this point does the matching process look to see if there are other unmatched customer bets to match against. While Betfair will now look for a greater range of possible customer bets to match against, the order and timing in which this is done remains unchanged. There is no selective matching taking place. Matching only occurs if there are opposing customer bet requests. Q. If a bet is matched by this new process why is the bet request never visible to other customers in the market view? A. If a customer places a back bet that matches an available lay bet on the same selection, that back bet request isnt displayed in the market view. Only bets that are unmatched are displayed in the market view as offers to other customers. This remains unchanged for bets matched across selections. Q. If Betfair can match across selections why arent those prices displayed in the market view? A. We believe that if a customer sees a price on the screen and they place a bet to match it they will expect to be matched at that price even if they request a worse price. We therefore expect to display prices that could be matched across selections once we have an efficient way of providing best execution across selections Kind regards, |
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best execution or not is mostly a separate issue..
and one they will shortly clarify |
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Here is another way to think of it
You send a bet, you are saying "Please can you match my bet at this price" Bet arrives at Betfair. They ask their system "Can we match this bet at the price they asked for? Well YES we can, as long as we just look at it from the other side" In the simplest of terms, you have got what you asked for Now we all know that we'd like to be matched higher, especially in certain instances. But Betfair can pocket themselves an extra profit from doing it this way And who is going to lose out? Probably only pros, and they don't give a flying f**k about us, because they know we'll keep coming back while we continue to win |
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I refer the gentleman to my previous answer
ie the contempt they've shown for me here isn't going to be replicated over the phone? |
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the man marcus,also if betfair are beating this delay they are effectively **ing their users as ordinarily that overround wouldn't occur until 5 seconds after it's been placed and **ing 5 seconds of thinking/cancelling time from the user who's bet is already sitting on the exchange who in normal circumstances would feel protected by the delay and may have cancelled. We all know just how vital that 5 seconds can be in play on fast moving markets
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We therefore expect to display prices that could be matched across selections once we have an efficient way of providing best execution across selections
Does that give cause for hope? |
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exactly
my bet hits the system it should take another further 5 seconds to be swallowed, which obviously allows me time to cancel |
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We therefore expect to display prices that could be matched across selections once we have an efficient way of providing best execution across selections
Does that give cause for hope? Not really no, 'But in the meantime we'll cream it for what we can' This shouldn't be running at all let alone when its flawed. |
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Actually it's worse, because somebody may have a bet that will hit in 2 seconds and will match yours. So they're stealing from said person as well.
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good point zeeny
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in it's current guise the jolly green giant is theft from the betfair customer and nothing else
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even when it's runnign properly are people here happy that betfair will have an in-running bot with no time delay operating on tennis markets?
surely not |
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I'm sure when all that was explained in detail to the GC they understood all the implications and ramifications it contained.
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Robin , I see they've convienientely left out details of odds their bet matching software is matching at and details of any excess that might occur from overs/unders.
Effectively they've admitted they'll happily match users bets but only when they can take the best prices out depriving others users who may come in milliseconds after betfair have mopped up the value. I guess they thought the tennis punters are such a placid lot they'd roll it out there first |
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I have no problem with BF running said both on markets as I'm pretty sure similar bots are already running. I have a huge issues with the in play simply because their bot, by being internal, does NOT follow market rules. In other words. Their bot is beating the clock. If they remove it from IP markets or make it abide by 5 second delay, I'd be fine with it.
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If the facility exists to place bets without delay what are the chances some unscrupulous individual could exploit this.
BF will say it's not possible, I wouldn't be too sure. |
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I have just had a 50 minute conversation with Betfair, who at least have discussed this with me. They are suggesting this is the first phase of a best execution implementation that will be completed in 2-3 weeks.
How they can defend the current implementation is beyond me though. The rationale seems to be that if someone makes a mistake it is their lookout and it would be taken by someone anyway. Hence Betfair might as well have it. This ignores the point that in running all users make mistakes and we leak to each other in varying degrees. It also ignores the fact that we have a set time to cancel bets it they land unmatched. |
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They do seem to be making a fairly candid admission that they are not providing best execution.
Not sure I buy that they haven't "worked it out" yet. The arithmetic isn't difficult. |
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oh great, so this is just the thin end of the wedge.
Now, what was my purple password? |
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" It also ignores the fact that we have a set time to cancel bets it they land unmatched."
-- Well, it's time some of you guys in the UK call the GC. |
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purple has apparently being doing this for some time, according to a post earlier
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The rationale seems to be that if someone makes a mistake it is their lookout and it would be taken by someone anyway. Hence Betfair might as well have it.
goof fc uking lord |
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Are we to take it that the 'betfair are beating the clock' brigade don't think betfair are doing anything wrong when they're skimming from the pre-in play markets?
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"How they can defend the current implementation is beyond me though. The rationale seems to be that if someone makes a mistake it is their lookout and it would be taken by someone anyway. Hence Betfair might as well have it."
This was said back on page 1 of this thread. They have identified an arb opportunity and adjusted the software to exploit it instantaneously, rather than let other users step in, or give the user opportunity to cancel. Tell it like it is Betfair. |
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They are suggesting this is the first phase of a best execution implementation that will be completed in 2-3 weeks.
so in the meantime betfair, the people v people exchange, are pocketing the overrounds |
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"The rationale seems to be that if someone makes a mistake it is their lookout and (that part does not follow from the first, so it's not a valid conclusion) it would be taken by someone anyway."
-- You may as well challenge that. It's a statement that can not be defended as it does not follow logic. |
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No Feck theyre not because any customer can skim from the pre match market provided they have fast software.
Thats the difference. No customer can replicate the profits Betfair are enjoying in the inplay markets because no customer can bet without the 5 second delay. |
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"Are we to take it that the 'betfair are beating the clock' brigade don't think betfair are doing anything wrong when they're skimming from the pre-in play markets?"
-- Unless one can prove that bets do not hit the market, it's impossible to have a case about their pre-in-play activities. So I do not see how it could be legally challenged. The IP thing is a pretty much clear cut case. |
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If you accept the concept that a bet is exactly the same as the opposite on all the other runners, then the current monster is not giving best execution. If you take the view that it is not exactly the same thing, then taking out the other side(s) is beating the time delay.
I think this is why there is so much disagreement on this thread, between intelligent people who are looking at it in a slightly different way. |
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No Feck theyre not because any customer can skim from the pre match market provided they have fast software.
Not any longer they can't Robin. |
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this is a fundamental change to any in running market it has been applied to and as such we should have been informed
why has tennis been the guinea pig and we are not told ? basically any fat fingered mistake that had a chance of being rectified will now go towards the betfair benevolent fund it will be interesting to see how many apoplectic customers they create when it is rolled out for horse racing in running markets like most things you can put a plausible spin on it but they cannot have been in the position of making a silly big mistake in a relatively illiquid market iand still think that this is fair |
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The money skimmed from markets by BetFair, before they are allowed to arrive as unmatched, should be revealed and donated to charity.
There is a difference when the operator uses it's technology to skim a market. A big difference. |
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Guys, I'm sorry if I'm asking a question that already has an answer.
If I sit @ 3.45 on the market. The money is there. The other side is a 1.4 back. If somebody tries to take my 3.45 by submitting a bet, I won't be the one who gets matched, would I? Even if we're both agreed on the price? |
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As a course of action all we're left with is to keep up the rant until it delivers best execution
They know we'll notice when it doesn't, regardless of the lack of announcements. I wonder if they're testing it for 2 to 3 weeks to see how much it makes. |
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weatherman2004 07 Mar 15:23
purple has apparently being doing this for some time, according to a post earlier From what I understood purple are mirroring bets i.e.on a two runner event a back at 3 on player A is also shown as a 1.5 lay on Player B. They've probably done it to give the impression the market is mor active than it is but at least you'll be matched at the best odds available in their version |
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"As a course of action all we're left with is to keep up the rant "
-- Again, why? You're in the UK. Why do you have a GC if you don't use it? |