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Ok - but Van Persie, Fabregas and Nasri have all greatly benefited from Wenger's coaching, so are much better players than when they arrived.
If you doubt this, just read up on their comments. Or better still, ask them! |
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Sound mike.
He has transformed the club imo. Contrast the muck that Graham served up with todays fare. No argument, he is the 2nd best club manager ever in England after Ferguson. :-) |
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come on ketchup, brown obviously
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I don't think Wenger is over-rated. I think he is regarded as a great coach and he is one. He has won many trophies and his teams have played very good football.
However, I do think he has become a little self-indulgent in recent years and it has meant that Arsenal have been winning less trophies. This may pay off, it may not. It'd be interesting to see him in the Real Madrid job, where the expectation level is much higher (ie, it's no good finishing second, you must win and win well). I think that's the reason he never took that job; not an issue of control, but an issue of expectation. |
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Thanks for mugging yourself off Jaap, it saves me the trouble
In the years between Wenger arriving at Arsenal, and Roman arriving at Chelsea, we won 4 trophies Thats more than half the haul Wenger has picked up in total. Wenger's success was built with the players he inherited, the teams he has since created have won practically nothing. A fact you CAN'T deny |
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How many of the unbeaten 03/04 team were inherited please?
Fanks |
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How many league titles did Chelsea win pre Roman?
Fanks |
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Out of interest if the club was to be taken over by mega rich owners do ou think Arsenal would then win more trophies ?
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@CailiniDeas8
"he is the 2nd best club manager ever in England after Ferguson." PMSL.......... I can't stand the scousers, but both Paisley and Shankley were far better managers, with much better records |
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music man 29 Oct 15:17
mike i do know a bit about wengers past life , history etc, he has gone on record in the past as saying that he prefers blacks players.. in all honesty if another manager said i prefer white players he would be accused of being a racist, and would be pilloried for it... music man, such a comment doesn't appear in Rivoire's exhaustive biography, so I'd also like to know where you got that from, please. As it stands, I would strongly suggest that you re-examine the quote (if it exists) for its context. Besides, hasn't he also said, many times, that he's not at all interested in a player's passport, he's purely interested in "quality"? |
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@RP,
not unless Wenger was sacked. He's got himself stuck as being known as the manger who likes to buy cheaply. All the time Wenger stays at Arsenal they will continue to win feck all. Which I'm very happy about |
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The team he inherited was poor. Mid table. He added some players like a young viera, petit, changed the coaching methods, strict diet and exercise regime and won us the double.
The title was always between man u and arsenal for about 6 years until chelsea city were given a load of oil money. FFS, I'd be able to win the title with hull if you gave me £500m to build a squad. |
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As oppose to changing managers every couple of months.
That has got Chelsea far........... |
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Can you list hs 5 most expensive signings please
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Scoff away brainbox.
Any rightminded football fan knows they **ed their way to those trophies. :-) |
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For the last 5 years Arsenal fans have been getting carried away watching the C Cup, nothings changed.
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the dza:
It'd be interesting to see him in the Real Madrid job, where the expectation level is much higher (ie, it's no good finishing second, you must win and win well). I think that's the reason he never took that job; not an issue of control, but an issue of expectation. Disagree with you, dza. Wenger would never accept the sort of constraints that are built in to the Real manager's role, the interference from the owner, the Board etc. He was tempted, twice, by Real, but realised he couldn't work properly without the freedom he enjoys (and greatly appreciates) at Arsenal. And do you really think there's no such similar expectation at and about Arsenal? Why, then, this whole topic, where his record of recent trophy-less years is coming under attack? |
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Blimey - bought in Fabregas? He might have been rated etc but ffs he was still only 16! I've never read a decent argument for him not being the best manager the premiership has seen so far (for people who can look at the big picture, not just how many leagues/cups you have won, but what you have achieved compared to the resources at your disposal).
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Jaap you do make it easy for me..............LOL
As oppose to changing managers every couple of months. That has got Chelsea far........... Well since Roman arrived and gave us Jose Mourinho we have had a further 4 managers and won 2 PL titles, 2 FA Cups, 2 league Cups, Arsenal have had 1 manager and won 1 Fa Cup Seems to me that changing managers has done us quite well |
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How many trophies since Mourinho left? Not many.
Not good enough for a team that has as much resources as Chelsea. |
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His critics here seem to forget that it's his success - which, btw, is not only measured by trophies (but perhaps that's another topic altogether?) - is the very reason underpinning this current debate!
If he wasn't any good, there'd be no point in the topic, would there?! |
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People forget how long it was since Utd won the league when Fergie took over. He is second to none at bringing through youngsters and bargain buys.
How much did Scheimchel, Keane, Solskaer, Cantona cost? |
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well for a guy interested only in Quality, considering England are ranked always in the top 10 of FIFA footballing nations, currently 6th i believe. he does seem to prefer the "quality of those nations players in africa etc that are ranked 50-100 places lower,and in fairly hefty quantities..
he also seems keen to unload english and or white players even though they may be international standard or have the potential to be before too long (cole,upson,bentley,pennant for example),whilst retaining french and african players for longer.. obviously making it into the England team would mean you are not of the same qaulity as the ivory coast, togo, etc,etc.. re the black quote,the context is irrelevant, ask big ron... |
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Still waiting for the source, Magic man
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Music man?
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There is a very simple answer to end this thread. Look at what Arsenal were before Wenger took over. Look at what they have acheived since.
If you still think he is over-rated, you are focusing too much on 1 thing (lack of trophies over the past couple of years). Either that or you haven't a clue about the overall impact a manger has on a club. |
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@Jaap
How many trophies since Mourinho left? Not many. Not good enough for a team that has as much resources as Chelsea. Lets just say we've only gone one season since he left without winning a trophy, how many years since Arsenal won one. But hey you stick up for Wenger, I'm on your side. the longer he stays, (just like Benitez at Liverpool), the less I have to worry about Arsenal being a rival to Chelsea |
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As jaap says, you have to take into account a manager's financial resources when assessing how good they are.
How many managers would have the passion for the game and strength of resolve to commit to developing young, promising players rather than merely just buying 'the finished article'? And how many would make an equally good job of that policy as Wenger has? Very, very few indeed. |
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look it up, if you dare....
its actually on some arsenal fans sights and has been discussed their...!!!! are you really a gooner !!! or just a forum p taker ??? |
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total non answer mike...says it all really.
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Source please Music man
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mikenichols 29 Oct 15:40
As jaap says, you have to take into account a manager's financial resources when assessing how good they are. ......... so wengers got less resources than all other prem clubs has he ?? |
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music man:
he also seems keen to unload english and or white players even though they may be international standard or have the potential to be before too long (cole,upson,bentley,pennant) Your point doesn't bear closer scrutiny, music man, as you fail to discriminate between the individual cases above. It wasn't merely a matter of "unloading" these guys, each was either low in the pecking order, behind very good, established players, or had some adverse personal/temperamental issues, or was, er, 'tapped up' by a richer club. Are you some sort of peculiar racist or what? |
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music man 29 Oct 15:45
mikenichols 29 Oct 15:40 As jaap says, you have to take into account a manager's financial resources when assessing how good they are. ......... so wengers got less resources than all other prem clubs has he ?? Actually, yes. |
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music man 29 Oct 15:41
total non answer mike...says it all really. No, mm, I'm most unimpressed by your views, you seem a rather prejudiced sort to me, I'm afraid. |
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think if any of the big 4 had won as few trophies as arsenal the managers would have gone, the fact they get 60 000 and wenger is still there tells it,s own answer only problem would be if you finished outside top 4,surely its how you win trophies not how many you win,thats why chelsea ,s owner and fans havnt been happy with the football they are watching. id rather watch arsenal play good football for 30 odd games and come 2nd than watch raffa and who ever is chelsea,s manager plot there way to a title
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music man:
so wengers got less resources than all other prem clubs has he ?? mikenichols: Actually, yes. To be more accurate, less available to spend than most clubs in top half of table, I'd say. And quite possibly less than a lot or most of the others. And infinitely less than the likes of Man Utd. Man City, Chelsea, Liverpool. |
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no i would imagine that anyone who says the arsenal have got less resources than , burnley, or stoke, or wigan,or hull, etc,etc, etc,etc.. is actually the rather prejudiced one in his views...
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i"d rather watch arsenal play good football for 30 odd games and come 2nd than watch raffa and who ever is chelsea,s manager plot there way to a title"
Biggest load of bull going............ If you asked 99.9% of posters on this forum, if they had a choice of 38 boring games but the PL title at the end of it OR 38 great games and runners up spot, they'd all opt for the former. |
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Wenger is not only a great coach, he has created and is implementing a vision of football and of a club that will last way beyond his tenure and even his lifetime (if we all make it through till then, of course).
Reading Rivoire's biography, I have found it truly mind-blowing to learn not only of the hours he puts in, but also the extraordinary attention to detail that characterises his management style. I do again recommend a read of this book for any who really would like to find out more about this man. But the terminally prejudiced just love to cling to their fossilised views, so I doubt whether any of his detractors here will bother themselves with such an irrelevance as actually learning how the man lives and works. Too much trouble, too, er... inconvenient?! |