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Chit Chat
Message for Brexit voters.
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"you can bet on there being negotiations on a trade agreement"
But the EU is ruling that out Edy. They don't want a trade agreement that's a 'viable alternative to membership' for the UK, even if that means millions of EU jobs disappear as a result. We've come full circle. As I said at the outset:- It's beyond me why anyone in their right mind wants to be part of this organisation. |
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Room ...
"It's beyond me why anyone in their right mind wants to be part of this organisation." Totally agree. I voted out because I didn't agree that we should belong to and pay into an obviously corrupt organisation. Any doubters please read every year's audit report. |
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If it was obviously corrupt the audit reports that you mention as credible source wouldn't exist. The waste, corruption and mismanagement also happens mostly in the member countries, including the UK.
Room 0182 • October 16, 2016 3:06 PM BST "you can bet on there being negotiations on a trade agreement" But the EU is ruling that out Edy. They don't want a trade agreement that's a 'viable alternative to membership' for the UK, even if that means millions of EU jobs disappear as a result. Have they really? What EU officials and leaders of member states have always ruled out is that the UK gets full access to the single market without sharing the responsibilities and respecting the freedoms. That is what is meant with viable alternative, getting all the benefits without sharing the responsibilities of all the other members. That is also what the cicero group means when they talk about deal (notice how they do not write "trade deal"). If you have statements about the EU being unwilling to engage in negotiations regarding a bilateral trade deal, feel free to share it. Same goes for your allegation that the EU would sacrifice millions of jobs. Provide a source or I'll have to consider that a rather disingenuous effort from you. |
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edy
suggest you look up EU accounts and read audit reports. HTH |
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mememe, these audit reports are done by an EU institution. You seem to consider them credible. Would an obviously corrupt organisation create credible audit reports?
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and the other fact remains too - For the vast majority of projects, the vast majority of spent money, the individual member states are responsible for choosing the projects/recipients and final distribution.
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Edy ... and the other fact remains too - For the vast majority of projects, the vast majority of spent money, the individual member states are responsible for choosing the projects/recipients and final distribution.
Yep ... EU is a corrupt organisation. Read the audit reports |
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Why do you first "yep" that the member states are the source of the waste/corruption and then follow it by calling the EU a corrupt organisation?
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If you mean that the member states constitute the EU, that is of course correct. In that way you could I guess call the EU corrupt. What does it tell you about the EU institutions however if they make these audit reports (and also demand wasted money back from the member states) to fight that waste?
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And Remainers say that Brexiteers are thick.
Read the audit reports. I did before I voted out. |
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From the original quote:-
"Finally, all Member States agree that the cost of a deal that makes leaving the EU look like a viable alternative to membership far outweighs the cost of new trade barriers." Cicero are clearly talking about trade and it follows on from that the EU cannot agree a free trade deal as that would contradict the aim above - to make life as difficult as possible for the UK. Besides. they have no other way of punishing the UK once we're out. The 'millions of jobs' was of course a reference to the repeated threats from the Remainers about how many UK jobs 'rely directly' on the Single Market. It seems reasonable to assume that a similar number of European jobs would be also be affected - and Nick Clegg, Peter Mandelson et al. wouldn't have lied to us would they?  |
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Meaning of “obtuse” in the English Dictionary
obtuse adjective (STUPID) formal stupid and slow to understand, or unwilling to try to understand: The answer's obvious - or are you being deliberately obtuse? |
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more ducking?
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But if you want to hear it from me - I do not know the answer. Maybe that means I am stupid or slow to understand. Nonetheless, I'd be very grateful if you tried to explain the obvious answers to me.
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Also, Room, let's not behave like a lot of the Brexit spectacle wasn't about some of your politicians wanting to blackmail the EU into giving the UK whatever they wanted. Have the cake and also eat it at the same time and whatnot because the EU was considered weak and certain to give into the blackmail. Even on this forum I've read quite a few posts ala "they'll give us everything we'll want"
Only when the EU repeatedly made it clear that there would be no cherry picking, your leading politicians suddenly started insisting on Brexit meaning "Hard Brexit" |
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edy,
This has got nothing to do with the Single Market and you know it. It's not mentioned once in that report and I haven't once advocated the UK remaining in it. "Finally, all Member States agree that the cost of a deal that makes leaving the EU look like a viable alternative to membership far outweighs the cost of new trade barriers" Further up the introduction:- "There is a misconception that Member States will inevitably refrain from imposing tough sanctions on the UK through fear of harming their own economies" The statements above are quite clear. The EU wishes to punish, via 'trade barriers' any member state that leaves, including those that exit the Single Market. If that damages their own economies as a consequence, so be it. I understand you're trying to muddy the waters, now that you've painted yourself into a corner, by banging on about the Single Market, but it won't wash. Your last post is just an extension of that. |
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Are you actually following the debate and what various european politicians have said over the course of the last few months?
It has everything to do with the single market because the EU is all about the single market. Most of the Brexit debate was about single market access vs. immigration control. Any exit negotiations are automatically about the future relationship to the single market. Look, again: The "viable alternative to membership" that the EU fears and opposes is single market access without the responsibilities, i.e what people like Boris Johnson openly bragged about gaining from Brexit because they thought the EU would be in the weaker position and bow down to the UK. If you had actually followed the debate you'd know this. Nobody of note in the EU or its remaining members is against signing trade agreements with the UK. That any such agreement will contain trade barriers compared to single market access is of course understood. |
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as do all trade agreements that the EU strikes
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as otherwise, if they didn't contain trade barriers compared to full single market access, we'd be back to the UK having privileged full access to the single market without sharing the responsibilities that all the other EU and EEA members have. You sound like you want that, but it'd hardly be fair on any of the other nations, would it?
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I think we have a winner. Well framed, edy.
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Adam S. Posen
Bank of England, and now president of the Peterson Institute for International Economics in Washington. “There were the people who thought Brexit would be reversed,” he continued. “There were the people who delusionally thought there would be a soft Brexit, and all the northern Europeans would be nice to them. And there were people who believed that this crew in charge of the British negotiations were somehow going to strike a good deal. All of the delusions have run out of material.” |
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More obfuscation Edy.
My original post wasn't about the wider debate, it was about the EU view as expressed in the report bigmo referenced. "Look, again: The "viable alternative to membership" that the EU fears and opposes is single market access without the responsibilities" That's not what it says. Nowhere does it mention single market access. Stop making it up. A free trade deal would be a "viable alternative to membership", obviously (my preferred option since you ask). So, the report says, the EU won't have it, even if it harms it's own citizens and no amount of bluster on your part changes that. Look, I understand you're too far in now to back down with pride intact, so I'll leave it at that. |
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the EU is all about the single market
Not true. Over half the money the EU has ever extracted from its taxpayers under threat of jail has gone on agricultural landowner subsidies - in other words servicing the coque of people who are not like ordinary people who generally don't own much land. People like richie biscuits who loves a hand out for a person who already has a lot. He especially gets hard when he sees numbers like UK median taxpayers subsidising UK landowners for £3bn a year, and UK median taxpayers subsidising non-UK landowners for a further £4bn a year. That kind of generosity in servicing foreign coque really gets him aroused. Probably owns a few Magyar vineyards. The fact that several European countries that are not in the EU participate in the Single Market is also evidence, a list which includes three of the world's four happiest. |
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at best well pay billions into the eu and be allowed to veto free movement.
anything less from either side will be construed as losing credibility |
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Room, of course to understand the meaning of such expressions like "viable alternative to membership" you need to see it in the context of the wider debate. I mean, you always have to that. For everything. Otherwise you will end up misunderstanding like you insist on doing even though it's now been explained to you plenty of times.
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id imagine the tariff will be high,if not extortionate though, to deter others from following suit.
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read my 2 posts,that is what will happen.
prevaricate all night,week,month,next year. |
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problem being for theresa may whilst holding out for the will of the people the eu will try to strangle the british economy through a ridiculous high tariff.
it may be a political pyrrhic victory and ultimately her waterloo |
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id imagine the tariff will be high,if not extortionate though, to deter others from following suit.
Any tariffs will be at mates rates. Why would another state want to Leave if Leaving puts a bomb under your economy? Their media will certainly mushroom the negatives. |
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For now anyway........
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The EU will have amendments in place to the Lisbon Treaty to make it even more difficult to leave the EU, especially if under the euro currency.
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Looked around the station car park last few days would say 50/60% of cars are from Germany/France
So yes they really want high tariffs don't they. |
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Interesting paper about trade agreements
https://www.sussex.ac.uk/webteam/gateway/file.php?name=briefing-paper-3.pdf&site=18 |
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Wit-ham
Agree, i believe at worse, any tariff will be in the 'friends' category. We will still be at the forefront on European NATO representation. So to class the UK as anything but 'friends' would be very odd. Also those that think the UK leaving with 'friendly terms' will encourage other states to do so, need to remember most of those other states are in the eurozone,schengen zone, or are net financial beneficiaries of the EU through EU membership fees. It would be a completely different kettle of fish for them to leave. If they look at how complicated it is for the UK to leave, they will realise it will be much more complicated for them to leave. And in the meantime, new EU reforms will make it even more complicated to Leave once the UK is out. So i think it is a bit of a red herring that the EU will punish the UK to protect themselves. They have a reform clause in the Lisbon Treaty which can tighten the screw on other states, perhaps under the guise of further privileges. |
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its like changing your energy company or your bank
if you are in debt to them its tougher than if you are a valued customer there is plenty for may to work with if she gets it right |
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Yeah,takes a couple of hours filling the forms out and hey presto everything is hunky dory, nothing to worry about..simples.
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I think the Lisbon Treaty is around 280 pages long.
Have you read it yet Breedingmad? |