Angel Gabriel Joined: 09 May 05
Replies: 528 03 Sep 10 01:10   


Bush didnt murder 3000 of his own people, Israel did it. Before Sunset Kissinger Cristo asks for me to provide evidence. The evidence is all around you Sunset. Mossad where behind it.



You are a joke. I'm looking around, but not seeing any evidence.Feel free to post this evidence rather than keep wasting my time posting inane assertions.

Sunset
So following the logical fallacy of the conspiracy people, Concorde never crashed then.Is that what you believe Gene?

Don't be silly,Sunset.
There would have been(and still will be)hundreds of cctv cameras in and around the Pentagon and other buildings in that location.

Hundreds? What is your source for this? I think you are making things up.

You've said previously that images of the 757 would be unable to be captured because it would be travelling too fast.Well not all of those cameras would have been pointing at 90 degrees to the flightpath of that plane would they?

You have not proven that there was hundreds of cameras or even any other cameras. This is just you speculating.

Some of them would be pointing towards the oncoming plane and would capture the plane quite easily wouldn't they?


See above.

If such an image existed then why wouldn't the US government release it and shut half of the conspiracy theorists up at a stroke?



Why don't they just make one up? According to you are your ilk they can just manufactures evidence and plant eyewitnesses at will.Pity they couldn't have planted some womd in Iraq,don't you think?

Gene Hackman Joined: 07 Feb 02
Replies: 2023 03 Sep 10 20:52   


Sparky
The plane was only flying very low(obviously)before it smashed into the side of the Pentagon.You wouldn't need cameras pointing skywards or downwards to capture it.
Just ask yourself this:
If a 757 flies down The Mall at 500mph at 10 o'clock tomorrow morning and hits The Queens front door,do you think a decent quality piece of footage would be on the TV news within hours?
Please,a simple yes or no will do.



No . You assume that Buckingham palace and other royal residencies and the pentagon would have a certain kind on CCTV. They don't. This is CCTV from Hampton court.


http://www.pakistan.tv/videos-hampton-court-ghost-cctv-%5B7sjzjyfPJqA%5D.cfm



Places like Buckingham palace and the Pentagon are supposed to be very secure places, but it didn't stop that guy breaking in and sitting on the Queens bed did it.

Sparky
If no images were captured by those inefficient and wrongly positioned cameras,why were they confiscated by the US authorities?
Why not just say "Sparky and Sunset told us that those cameras wont show anything, so we don't need to show you"


You are begging the question again. You have provided no evidence that any cctv was confiscated. Are you ever going to start providing evidence? Or are you just going to keep making baseless assertions?

Gene Hackman Joined: 07 Feb 02
Replies: 2023 03 Sep 10 23:34   


Ok masher,done it.
The citgo one showed nothing because it was just trained on the shop and forecourt.

Yes that is what we have been saying.

The Hotel one was 22seconds long and showed smoke from The Pentagon.It showed nothing from before that.
Is that what's convinced you?
Of 85 apparent pieces of footage they released that,and that's what convinced you?


what 85 pieces of footage?

I shall take your replies as a sign that you have given up on the lack of cctv footage thing.

Take mine as more than a sign. However, I am deeply concerned about the lack of video of American Airlines Flight 587 crashing in Queens, New York. Apparently, this is the only video of it

http://www.911myths.com/index.php
/American_Airlines_Flight_587


"Must have been a missile then following gene's distorted logic."

Gene Hackman Joined: 07 Feb 02
Replies: 2023 04 Sep 10 11:29   


Orioles
Would you like to comment on the observations,highlighted above,made by Mark Twain and Adolf Hitler,and it's relation to(or not) the 9/11 "conspiracy"?
Surely,this is a chance for someone with a towering intellect,like you,to come to the fore and educate the likes of me.
Or you could continue to pop up now and again with a little "funny" every couple of days.



I agree on this one. Don't expect any intelligent contribution from Orioles. It's beyond him.

This is quite interesting Sunset.





Seismic Proof 9/11 Was An Inside Job
12th November 2006 | 9/11 Truth, News Columns
5
Share    Craig T. Furlong & Gordon Ross

There is an appointed time for everything
And there is a time for every event under heaven
Ecclesiastes 3:1

SUMMARY
On September 11, 2001, the seismic stations grouped around New York City recorded seismic events from the WTC site, two of which occurred immediately prior to the aircraft impacts upon the Twin Towers. Because these seismic events preceded the collisions, it is clear they were not associated with the impacts and must therefore be associated with some other occurrence. None of the authorities charged with the responsibility for the investigation of the events of 9/11 have proposed a source for these seismic events, nor have they given a valid reason for the difference in times between the seismic events and the aircraft impacts. Only by consideration of the evidence of basement explosions before the aircraft impacts, as experienced by William Rodriquez and 36 others, can an explanation be found for the fact that the seismic stations recorded seismic events originating from the WTC sites prior to the aircraft impacts. It seems unlikely that Middle Eastern terrorists could have overcome the WTC security and managed this kind of high-level, technological coordination. Do the facts presented here, simple and few, raise the possibility of inside involvement in 9/11/01, both before and after the attack?

OVERVIEW
This paper is primarily concerned with the factual data surrounding the exact impact times of the two aircraft that hit WTC1 and WTC2. This is neither theory nor hypothesis, but a statement of publicized facts regarding the timing of the aircraft impacts. There exist two separate precision data time sets that address when the aircraft crashed into the Towers. Both data time sets are based on UTC (Coordinated Universal Time, the world’s atomic clock system) and the sources that determined these times were prestigious, reliable and credible. There is no question regarding the precision and accuracy of the instruments used to record both data time sets, since their entire function depends and relies upon temporal accuracy, and therefore there can be no doubt that both data time sets are correct. The time data sets represent objective scientific data recorded by two separate, independent entities.

The problem is the data sets have different impact times.

These times were given out years ago but at different times. Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory at Columbia University (LDEO) gave its findings around the time of the event with what it thought were impact times based upon the seismic data recorded, while the 9/11 Commission published its impact times, based upon FAA radar data and air traffic control software logic, years later in its Final Report. The Commission no longer exists.

Original seismic and Commission times.
Table 1
AA Flt 11
2001 LDEO 8:46:26 Original seismic
2004 Commission 8:46:40 (14 seconds difference)
UA Flt 175
2001 LDEO 9:02:54 Original seismic
2004 Commission 9:03:11 (17 seconds difference)

SEISMIC DATA AND TIMES
LDEO Published Findings 2001
Link: http://www.ldeo.columbia.edu/LCSN/Eq/20010911_wtc.html

LDEO confirmed its data as accurate:
Link: http://www.mgs.md.gov/esic/publications/download/911pentagon.pdf

9/11 COMMISSION DATA AND TIMES
Commission Timeline Link: http://www.gpoaccess.gov/911/index.html

The Commission’s times are based upon: “We have determined that the impact time was 9:03:11 based on our analysis of FAA radar data and air traffic control software logic.” [9/11 Commission Report, pg 460, Note 130]:
Link: http://www.insightful.com/infact/911/corpus/report_470_460.html
(Note 130 is the basis for WTC1 & WTC2 precision impact times to the second)

It is known that the FAA followed the aircraft using the four northeast ARTCCs (Air Route Traffic Control Centers) of Boston, New York, Washington DC, and Cleveland; there was also Air Traffic Control for the local air space of New York City. All of this radar and accompanying Air Traffic Control data was recorded to UTC timestamping. These stations utilized primary radar return tracking with all times to the second. Also, an Air Traffic Controller replied to this investigation stating that a time-check is done daily by all stations to make sure that all radar tracking is precisely coordinated to UTC. Radar is based upon microwaves that travel at the speed of light, so error variance is not stated. The Commission Report has the impact times. Their data set is based upon actual flight data that ended when the Towers were struck. There is no question: AA Flight 11 died at 8:46:40 and UA Flight 175 at 9:03:11 [UTC – 4 hrs]. Since the planes crashed at those times, the question is: What caused the LDEO times 14 and 17 seconds earlier? What caused those seismic spikes?

BASEMENT EXPLOSIONS
On the face, it seems tenuous that the spikes were “impact times”. How does an aircraft impacting the WTC near the 90th floor result in sufficient energy transference that travels all the way down to the earth, even through the massive multi-level, 6-story sub-basement structure, and be picked up by LDEO as a seismic spike? Energy from the crash should have mostly been absorbed by the building’s immense structure and mass.

The following is an excerpt about an eyewitness at WTC1 by the name of William Rodriguez (he worked at the WTC complex for 20 years, was acknowledged a hero for the many lives he saved that day, and he was the last person out of the building before it came down):
Link: http://www.newswithviews.com/Spingola/deanna17.htm
——-
Arriving at 8:30 on the morning of 9-11 he went to the maintenance office located on the first sublevel, one of six sub-basements beneath ground level. There were a total of fourteen people in the office at that same time. As he was discussing the day’s tasks with others, there was a very loud massive explosion which seemed to emanate from between sub-basement B2 and B3. There were an additional twenty-two people on B2 sub-basement who also felt and heard that first explosion.

At first he thought it was a generator that had exploded. But the cement walls in the office cracked from the explosion. “When I heard the sound of the explosion, the floor beneath my feet vibrated, the walls started cracking and everything started shaking.” said Rodriguez, who was crowded together with fourteen other people in the office including Anthony Saltamachia, his supervisor for the American Building Maintenance Company.

Just seconds later there was another explosion way above which made the building oscillate momentarily. This, he was later told, was a plane hitting the Tower at about the 90th floor. Upon hearing about the plane, he immediately thought of the people up in the restaurant. Then there were other explosions just above B1 and individuals started heading for the loading dock to escape the explosion’s resulting rampant fire. When asked later about those first explosions he said: “I would know if an explosion was from the bottom or the top of the building.” He heard explosions both before and after the plane hit the Tower.
——-

The number of witnesses who presented evidence of explosion and explosion damage, and particularly the injuries that some witnesses received, again leaves no room for doubt that there were explosions in the basement of WTC1. The following video link is powerful testimony by William Rodriguez and is evidence that corroborates the facts of this paper; also, these facts corroborate the 37 eyewitnesses in the WTC1 basement: Link: http://www.jonhs.net/911/william_rodriguez.htm

BASEMENT AND LOBBY DAMAGE
It is noted that the damage caused by these explosions had previously been attributed to aircraft impact. However, refutation of this is provided by both the testimonies of William Rodriguez in the above link, and by NYFD Lieutenant William Walsh in the below link. This concerns specifically the middle, local elevators that were blown off their hinges from below, as evidenced by the doors resting outward at 45 degree angles that met in the middle near the bottom. These local elevators serviced only Floors 34 down to the lowest level of the building, Level B6 in the basement. They could not have been the result of aircraft impact:
Link: Testimony, Lt. William Walsh NYFD, Jan 11, 2002.pdf
WTC Building Layout Link: World Trade Center Building Layout, Floors and Elevators
—————————-
Lt. Walsh- Answer: What else I observed in the lobby was that – there’s basically two areas of elevators. There’s elevators off to the left-hand side which are really the express elevators. That would be the elevators that’s facing north. Then on the right-hand side there’s also elevators that are express elevators, and that would be facing south. In the center of these two elevator shafts would be elevators that go to the lower floors. They were blown off the hinges. That’s where the service elevator was also.

Chief Congiusta- Question: Were these elevators that went to the upper floors? They weren’t side lobby elevators?

Answer: No, no, I’d say that they went through floors 30 and below.

Question: And they were blown off?

Answer: They were blown off the hinges, and you could see the shafts. The elevators on the extreme north side and the other express elevator on the extreme south side, they looked intact to me from what I could see, the doors anyway…….
…….So I headed for the B stairway. I did not want to deal with elevators. So Ladder 1—

Question: Were there any elevators working or no? Probably no, I assume.

Answer: I couldn’t tell about the express elevators. The elevators that I mentioned before that were on the extreme north end and the extreme south end, I don’t know about those elevators. But I headed for where the service elevator was, which was in the center where the lower floor elevators were, the ones where the doors were blown off them.
—————————-

Lieutenant Walsh makes an extremely relevant point when he shows that the local elevator shafts acted as a conduit for the explosive effects and thereby limits the source of the explosion to the area covered by those shafts. His evidence shows that the elevator shafts affected by the explosions served only the lower floors and not those at the impact levels, thereby ruling out jet fuel from the aircraft as being involved in the explosions.

Additional corroboration of the elevators being blown out is provided by Lt. Brian Becker & Firefighter Robert Byrne, NYFD: Link: Lt. Brian Becker, NYFD, Elevators Were Blown Out
Link: Firefighter Robert Byrne, NYFD: Core Elevators (Blown Apart)

Since only one elevator shaft was continuous from the aircraft impact level to the basement level, we can further rule out the aircraft impact as being the cause of the basement explosions by using additional testimony of William Rodriguez. In direct response to a question which postulated that the explosion was caused by aircraft fuel traveling down the elevator shafts, he stated, “Very strange indeed, since there were only one elevator shaft (the 50A car) that went all the way to B6, the operator was inside, Mr. Griffith and he survived with a broken ankles. He should have died burnt since on this theory the ball of fire went down. He is alive and well and I will interview him in the future to clear the disinformation.”
Link: William Rodriguez | 08.18.06 – 12:20 am

When talking about the lobby damage and his experiences, Rodriguez added, “I said many times that when I got back to the basement after escorting a person totally burnt and 14 people from my office out of the building, there were sprinklers going off on the basement and not on the upper floors. Also when I got to the lobby, the passenger elevators in the field of view, their doors were popped open sideways like a pyramid, from the bottom up.”

The evidence of William Walsh and William Rodriguez shows that there were explosions that affected the basement and lobby levels, and these were not caused by the jet fuel.

TIME DELAY FROM BASEMENT EXPLOSIONS TO AIRCRAFT IMPACT
The authors have located evidence that possibly shows how long the time was between the initial explosion and the later impact of AA Flt 11 at WTC1. Jenny Carr was at a business meeting with others on the morning of 9/11 at 1 Liberty Plaza, and a recording was being made of that meeting. During this recording a first explosion is heard, and then a second one about 9 seconds later. This data still needs to be corroborated, and both authors and the Scholars for 9/11 Truth are involved in this; however, it is worth presenting at this time. This was found inside a movie compendium, “9/11 Controlled Demolitions of September 11, 2001″. To repeat, this needs further corroboration.
Link: Jenny Carr, Video – 9 Seconds and go in 14 minutes, 30 seconds.

FAA TIMES
Within the Federal Aviation Administration’s “Summary of Air Traffic Hijack Events September 11, 2001” are found the impact times of 8:46:35 and 9:03:14.
Link: FAA Summary of Air Traffic Hijack Events September 11,2001
What is interesting is, when the 9 seconds found on the Jenny Carr tape are added to the original LDEO seismic time of 8:46:26, the result is 8:46:35, the exact FAA impact time for AA Flt 11.

And although anecdotal, it is also intriguing that the FAA’s 9:03:14 for UA Flt 175 matches closely to the time of 9:03:17 found in the recent Vanity Fair article by Michael Bronner.
Link: Vanity Fair article by Michael Bronner This 9:03:17 time occurred when NEADS received the call notifying them of a 2nd possible hijacking while “almost simultaneously” people in the NEADS control room watched Flt 175 crash into WTC2 on CNN, including Colonel Marr, the commanding officer. This adds credibility to the Commission’s impact time of 9:03:11. Nevertheless, although the 9/11 Commission referred to this FAA Summary many times in its Final Report, it still based its impact times upon all the data they had and issued impact times of 8:46:40 and 9:03:11.

NTSB TIMES
Within the flight path studies by the National Transportation Safety Board are found approximate impact times of 8:46:40 and 9:02:40.
Link: NTSB report, “Flight Path Study-American Airlines Flight 11,” Feb. 19, 2002
Link: NTSB report, “Flight Path Study-United Airlines 175,” Feb. 19, 2002

These reports, as a matter of course, state times of impact as approximate, this done with an understanding that higher authority will review all data in determining actual times of impact.

The 9/11 Commission’s impact time of 8:46:40 for AA Flt 11 is the same as is found in the NTSB report that the Commission referred to in its Note 39.

The Commission referred to the NTSB report for the impact time of UA Flt 175 in its Note 51, but even in doing so, it rejected the NTSB’s approximate 9:02:40 time and issued instead 9:03:11 as the official time.

When one examines the radar graph from the study on AA Flt 11, it can be seen there was one last radar position-plot at the end. This coincides with testimony by Controller Dave Bottiglia who tracked AA Flt 11 that morning: This is from an article that covers this: “It was now being tracked by New York Centre, where a controller, Dave Bottiglia, saw it disappear from his screen just before 8.47. It had ploughed into the World Trade Centre’s north tower.”
Link: Controller Dave Bottiglia, AA Flt 11 Disappears From Radar

Reference is now made to the original source data used by the 9/11 Commission when analyzing the impact time supplied by the NTSB flight path study for AA Flight 11. Examination of this and particularly the radar graph supplied by magnification of the ending point area shows the last radar return from the aircraft before impact at 08.46.40.

AA Flt 11 crashed at 8:46:40 EDT.

FAA & NTSB times added.
Table 2
AA Flt 11
2001 LDEO 8:46:26 Original seismic
2001 FAA 8:46:35 Rejected by Commission
2002 NTSB 8:46:40
2004 Commission 8:46:40
UA Flt 175
2002 NTSB 9:02:40 Rejected by Commission
2001 LDEO 9:02:54 Original seismic
2004 Commission 9:03:11
2001 FAA 9:03:14 Rejected by Commission

NIST TIMES
NIST (National Institute of Standards and Technology) developed its own times over the years regarding the plane impacts of AA Flt 11 and UA Flt 175, and these were made available in the progress report of June 2004. Link: NIST Interim Progress Report June 2004 – Appendix H

So, what are these NIST times? NIST had around 14,000 photos and videos of the events of 9/11 and wanted to bring this information into a chronological timeline to better understand the events of that day. They first had to determine a standard or baseline to use in order to bring all the data into temporal alignment. They decided to use the impact time of UA Flt 175 crashing into WTC2 at 9:02:54 because of the many TV stations and cameras trained on WTC1 at the time, as it had just been hit by AA Flt 11 moments before. This 9:02:54 time is seismic data from LDEO. NIST later claimed that the actual impact time of UA Flt 175 was not 9:02:54 but 9:02:59 ± 1 sec. Their basis for this were four TV stations with timestamped transmissions, times that are presumed to have been accurately updated to UTC at the time of the event. The difference between 9:02:54 and 9:02:59 is 5 seconds. NIST then took this 5 second differential to make the other 4 major events “relative”; i.e., they added 5 seconds to each time they had for the other 4 major events (the impact into WTC1, and the collapses for WTC2, WTC1, and WTC7). This meant they took the supposed time of “impact” for AA Flt 11 into WTC1 of 8:46:25 [seismic] and added 5 seconds to it to come up with their new supposed time of “impact” of 8:46:30. (Please recall that the facts put forth in this paper bring into question the causes of the seismic spikes, and this is why these seismic times are referred to as “supposed” times of “impacts”.)

NIST used false logic in doing this 5-second addition. It is wrong. Adding 5 seconds is sleight-of-hand statistics, a non sequitur that is meaningless. The 9:02:59 is from a discrete event with a time set derived from TV stations (one type of source). The other time of 8:46:25 is from another distinct event derived from seismic data (another type of source). These then are two detached time sets for two separate events from two different source types. Therefore, the adding of 5 seconds can not be done according to either logic or statistics. (In accounting this type of error is known as “mixing apples with oranges”.) Therefore, the NIST 8:46:30 “Adjusted Time from Television Broadcasts”, for their first aircraft “impact”, is not real. To reiterate: the NIST 8:46:30 a.m. time labeled as “First aircraft impact” under the column “Adjusted Time from Television Broadcasts” is artificial.
Table 3
AA Flt 11
2001 LDEO 8:46:26 Original seismic
2004 NIST 8:46:30 Artificial
2001 FAA 8:46:35 Rejected by Commission
2002 NTSB 8:46:40
2004 Commission 8:46:40
UA Flt 175
2002 NTSB 9:02:40 Rejected by Commission
2001 LDEO 9:02:54 Original seismic
2004 NIST 9:02:59 Adjusted per TV
2004 Commission 9:03:11
2001 FAA 9:03:14 Rejected by Commission

NIST times added.

NIST SPONSORED RE-ANALYSIS SEISMIC TIME STUDY
Additionally, NIST contracted in 2005 for the services of Dr. Won-Young Kim of Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory (LDEO) to re-analyze the original seismic data and times that were issued by LDEO back in 2001 (Kim was instrumental in the issuance of the original times). This new study resulted in Kim issuing revised seismic times in 2005 that added three seconds to both of the 2001 originally calculated times for aircraft “impacts”. The revised times were 8:46:29 and 9:02:57.
[Reference report: “NIST NCSTAR 1-5A, WTC Investigation, Chapter 3, pages 22-24]
See Table 3-1 Link: NIST NCSTAR 1-5A, Chapters 1-8

NIST’s determination of 8:46:30 time of first “impact” is artificial. It is not only erroneous, but may be specious if time manipulation is the motive. This phony time for AA Flt 11 is directly contradicted by the statement made by the NTSB and is not supported by the radar data supplied by the NTSB. The last radar signal from the aircraft before impact was received at 8:46:40, ten seconds after the time that NIST now says is when the aircraft impacted the Tower. One wonders again if the NIST 2005 contract with Dr. Kim to re-analyze the seismic times is also an attempt at time manipulation in order to find credibility for the bogus 8:46:30 NIST time. An audit by independent seismological experts to determine the authenticity of the revised seismic times would be in order to resolve this matter. It would be worth doing as this concerns the mass murder of nearly 3,000 people.

Table 4
AA Flt 11
2001 LDEO 8:46:26 Original seismic
2005 LDEO 8:46:29 Revised per NIST contract
2004 NIST 8:46:30 Artificial
2001 FAA 8:46:35 Rejected by Commission
2004 Commission 8:46:40
2002 NTSB 8:46:40

UA Flt 175
2002 NTSB 9:02:40 Rejected by Commission
2001 LDEO 9:02:54 Original seismic
2005 LDEO 9:02:57 Revised per NIST contract
2004 NIST 9:02:59 Adjusted per TV
2004 Commission 9:03:11
2001 FAA 9:03:14 Rejected by Commission
NIST sponsored revised seismic times added.

The first aspect of these times that must be commented upon is the fact that, after three major enquiries, we are still left without answers, even on such basic questions as when the various events occurred. It must be seen as an indictment of these bodies that most people would probably regard the best evidence as having come from television rather than the official investigations. Are we to understand that NIST, FEMA and the 9/11 Commission did not have access to exactly the same, many, television sources of the event? It is a sad commentary that the words “9/11 Commission” are not found once throughout both NIST reports [NCSTAR 1-5 and NCSTAR 1-5A]. And if a word search is done on the Final Report of the 9/11 Commission for the words “Lamont” or “LDEO” or “8:46:26”, the answer is the same: nothing. This appalling lack of attention to detail is inexcusable and can be viewed by some as highly sinister.

NIST suffers a lack of credibility for its issuance of the false 8:46:30 “impact” time for AA Flt 11. It is an unreal time and is not an impact. What is needed from NIST are: (1) the names of the four television stations whose data was used, (2) the actual times of impact from these four stations, and (3) the procedures used by each station in the regular synchronization process to UTC.

Regarding UA Flt 175, a question remains: What are the main specifics that the Commission based its time of 9:03:11 on, those that go to the heart of their Note 130? The Commission based it on something, as one doesn’t just come up with such a precise number out of thin air. “FAA radar data and air traffic control software logic” needs to be elaborated upon. Something is behind this time, and if this something is credible, this would confirm once and for all the large time-gap between seismic and impact, and would be another conclusive demand for a new investigation. Nevertheless, until the specifics become known, the 9:03:11 remains the official time of impact, and this by itself demands a new investigation.

Regarding AA Flt 11, there still remains a huge 11 – 14 second time-differential between the precision times of seismic & impact. This time-gap, along with the many corroborating WTC1 basement eyewitnesses and fire department personnel, demands a new investigation now, and this can not be emphasized or stressed any stronger.

CONCLUSION
Several seismic stations recorded seismic signals originating from two events which occurred at the WTC site, immediately prior to both aircraft impacts. Because these signals preceded the impacts there can be no doubt that the seismic signals recorded were not those associated with the aircraft impacts on the Towers. These signals were in fact the seismic spikes associated with the huge basement explosions reported by witnesses. Only by a revision of the previously well-regarded seismic times has NIST been able to attempt to say the times of the aircraft impacts coincide with the seismic signals, and even then, their 8:46:30 first impact time is a fake. Meanwhile, the evidence of basement explosions prior to the impact of AA Flt 11 has not been explored or examined at all, even with so great a cloud of witnesses.

The inescapable conclusions drawn from this analysis and the facts contained herein, cast extreme doubt on the government’s claim that these attacks were carried out solely by Middle Eastern terrorists, who would not have had the ability or opportunity to plant the explosive devices, nor to detonate them so as to be masked and partially hidden by the aircraft impacts. The real perpetrators, those who actually did plant these devices, clearly had free access to the Towers. The total number of people who had this opportunity was small and a list of these people should be easily available. Middle Eastern terrorists alone could not have been responsible as they do not have the wherewithal of this kind of scale. It is more than remarkable that the 9/11 Commission, although it had heard the testimony of William Rodriguez regarding the explosions in the basements, did not deem it important enough to be included in the Final Report. In Rodriguez’s testimony he says many of his fellow witnesses wanted to give their testimony to the Commission, and tried repeatedly to bring this about, but the 9/11 Commission never called any of them. Rodriguez said the only reason he was able to appear out of all of them was because he was instrumental in bringing about the actual formation of the Commission (he was heavily involved with many of the families of the victims who were trying to get a commission formed to investigate 9/11).

This analysis has examined the evidence of basement explosions as given by William Rodriguez and others and has shown by the evidence given by William Walsh, and by examination of the Tower’s elevator layout, that it is not physically possible that these could have the aircraft impact as their source.

The analysis has identified further information from Jenny Carr and shown that this confirms the evidence of William Rodriguez that the basement explosions preceded the first aircraft impact by nine seconds. Examination of the various times given for the seismic events and aircraft impacts, detailed by the FAA, the NTSB and the LDEO original seismic analysis confirm that there was a time delay between the basement explosions and the aircraft impact.

THEREFORE, the facts in this paper, which pertain directly to the greatest crime and conspiracy of modern times, demand a new independent, quasi private/public, non-politicized 9/11 investigation (a real one this time, one with teeth) be formed immediately to pursue this crime investigation until the murderers / conspirators are identified, apprehended, and brought to justice. All Americans, especially the NYPD, the Attorney General for the State of New York, Congress, and the Bush Administration need to work in answering this question: Who are the ones responsible for the explosions before the planes hit the buildings?

To ignore the facts of this paper would be intellectual dishonesty at best, and if the government and the media do not respond, it is like an admission of guilt and/or continued coverup.

Five years is long enough.

Now is the time for justice for those who died that day, justice for their families and friends who grieve to this day, justice for all the victims who survived, and that those who did this heinous act receive the full measure of justice befitting their crime.

No stone should be left unturned until these murderers are caught.

Now is the time for the new 9/11 investigation.

The official times for plane “impact” [precise to the second] as declared by the US Government, from both the 9/11 Commission and from NIST (National Institute of Standards and Technology), are different and yet both are true and accurate times. What can this factual contradiction mean? Looking exclusively at WTC1, there is found the indisputable causal link:

One World Trade, September 11, 2001
American Airlines Flight 11 “impact” time:
8:46:30 UTC, per LDEO seismic data (National Institute of Standards and Technology, 2005)
8:46:40 UTC, per FAA last primary radar contact (9/11 Commission Final Report, 2004)

Q- What caused the 8:46:30 seismic event that occurred 10 seconds before the actual aircrash at 8:46:40?
A- The only possibility is huge explosions, as corroborated by many eyewitnesses at the time.
Q- Who caused these explosions before the plane hit?

In 2004, the 9/11 Commission avoided addressing the earlier seismic event time (which had been, in error, attributed by Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory, Columbia University, originally in 2001 as “plane impact”).

In 2005, NIST avoided addressing the 9/11 Commission’s later time for the aircraft’s actual impact time.

Both the 9/11 Commission and NIST avoided addressing the many witnesses who testified of explosions in the basements before the plane crashed.

This precision data has yet to be refuted by anyone. It is from the two highest governmental entities charged with looking into what happened on 9/11, and both declared these times as accurate, and in doing so they corroborate William Rodriguez and the many eyewitnesses the morning of 9/11 who testified of explosions in the sub-basements of WTC1 before American Airlines Flight 11 struck the building. This is indicting evidence of governmental coverup, and thus implication of complicity.

Before it is too late, demand a new 9/11 investigation, except this time a real one.
Justice waits…{and there is no statute of time limitation on murder}

by Craig T. Furlong & Gordon Ross
Scholars for 911 Truth

@Slarty

Both the CVR and  the transcript of it were accepted into evidence in US v. Zacarias Moussaoui. Conversations were in both English and Arabic. I can't say for sure who did the translation, but if you can find a transcript of the court proceeding for April 12th, 2006, you will almost certainly get the answer.

According to david ray griffin:

Griffinballs dealt with here:

http://www.911myths.com/index.php/
American_Airlines_Flight_77_Calls

The interesting thing about David Ray Griffin is that he is an advocate for a world government. Normally this would make him evil personified, but Griffin actually gets deified by the same people because he is a prolific creator of 9/11 conspiracy nonsense. It seems to me that some people have sold their to the New World Order in exchange for a barrow load of conspiracy bollux.

I congratulate the conspiracy boys on their indefatigability.

Or as I prefer it, their brainwashed automaton-like behaviour akin to that found in religious cult members. Plus the rampant antisemites, of course.

This is quite interesting Sunset.





Seismic Proof 9/11 Was An Inside Job
12th November 2006 | 9/11 Truth, News Columns
5
Share    Craig T. Furlong & Gordon Ross



The interesting thing about this is that the lead author, Craig T Furlong, has admitted they got it wrong and that the paper is crap.
Don't believe me? Drop him an email and find out for yourself.

That the "Scholars" for 9/11 Truth outfit leave the paper up should tell you a lot about them.

Oh God - please stop me logging into this forum and this thread in particular. I'm considering amputation of the clicking finger.

There were no seismic events other than crashes and collapses. It's just more conspiracy dross that, if it's repeated often enough, drops into the mainstream and is accepted as true. It isn't. It's an outright lie.

http://www.ldeo.columbia.edu/LCSN/Eq/20010911_wtc.html

Cue next mole.

They rejected Northwoods.

Gulf of Tonkin.
That happened Sparky.

The Gliewitz incident.
That happened too.


I wouldn't put it past the Americans to do something like this,but it wouldn't have to be something as dramatic as 9/11. And it's irrelevant any way because there is very little evidence that this is what happened on 9/11.

Journalist James Bamford summarized Operation Northwoods in his April 24, 2001 book Body of Secrets:

Operation Northwoods, which had the written approval of the Chairman and every member of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, called for innocent people to be shot on American streets; for boats carrying refugees fleeing Cuba to be sunk on the high seas; for a wave of violent terrorism to be launched in Washington, D.C., Miami, and elsewhere. People would be framed for bombings they did not commit; planes would be hijacked. Using phony evidence, all of it would be blamed on Castro, thus giving Lemnitzer and his cabal the excuse, as well as the public and international backing, they needed to launch their war.[18



This might be true, but it's a massive leap from this to then say well 9/11 must be a false flag. All the evidence is against it. Of course evidence means nothing to people like you. That's your problem.

Angel Gabriel Joined: 09 May 05
Replies: 529 04 Sep 10 22:57   


From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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"Northwoods" redirects here. For the forests of the subarctic, see Taiga and Boreal forest.

Operation Northwoods memorandum (March 13, 1962).[1]Operation Northwoods, or Northwoods, was a false-flag plan that originated within the United States government in 1962. The plan called for Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) or other operatives to commit genuine acts of terrorism in U.S. cities and elsewhere. These acts of terrorism were to be blamed on Cuba in order to create public support for a war against that nation, which the US had recently labled as communist under Fidel Castro. One part of the Operation Northwoods plan was to "develop a Communist Cuban terror campaign in the Miami area, in other Florida cities and even in Washington."




Pity you have taken this out of context.Further down it says.


Several other proposals were included within the Operation Northwoods plan, including real or simulated actions against various U.S. military and civilian targets. The plan was drafted by the Joint Chiefs of Staff, signed by Chairman Lyman Lemnitzer and sent to the Secretary of Defense. Although part of the U.S. government's Cuban Project anti-communist initiative, Operation Northwoods was never officially accepted and the proposals included in the plan were never executed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods



You have lost your credibility with me.

Gene Hackman 
Pandorica
I simply asked you whether those facts I posted were a coincidence.
A simple yes or no would have done tbh.

I think, as its a public forum I can answer any way I wish.

How come if you got a GCSE in logic you can't just tell me if it was a coincidence that those planes were more lightly loaded than usual?
Btw You and Klaus could get together and watch your Dr Who box set.

Sighhhhhhhsssssssssss...

"If it was "widespread" knowledge that the planes would be hijacked and crashed, ie. a conspiracy, the planes would carry fewer passengers"

is not he same as

"The planes had fewer passengers, therefore there was a conspiracy."

It's not even GCSE standard Gene. It really isn't.

It's that failure to grasp conditional probability et al that is at the heart of all conspiracy theories.

No. Strike that. Money is at the heart of all conspiracy theories. Money surrounded by egotism, encased in confirmation bias and then wrapped in a total, desperate failure to grasp the basics of probability.

This is of course setting aside the common sense, that for planes to be deliberately carrying fewer passengers would then implicate God knows who else in an already ridiculously number heavy connspiracy.

Of those - the lack of probability awareness is the most frustrating, the egotism is the most annoying, and the money grabbing is the most hateful.