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The Gold Cup

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By:
CheltenhamRoar
When: 30 Dec 14 22:25
Mr Eboue i actually thought he jumped fine until about a mile out when he took every bloody fence with him!
Shame as he may well have played a part in the finish.
Hard to believe he's improving at his age but stranger things have happened!
By:
shockster
When: 02 Jan 15 20:44
Silviniaco Conti (3), Road To Riches (10), Holywell (14), Bobs Worth (16)in, Lord Windermere (16), Many Clouds (16), Boston Bob (20), On His Own (20), Shutthefrontdoor (20), Dynaste (25)in, Al Ferof (33), Captain Chris (33), Carlingford Lough (33), Cue Card (33), Don Cossack (33), Houblon Des Obeaux (33), Kings Palace (33), Morning Assembly (33), Sam Winner (33), Simonsig (33), Sir Des Champs (33), Smad Place (33), Wonderful Charm (33), Champagne Fever (40)out, First Lieutenant (40), Menorah (40), Rubi Ball (40), The Giant Bolster (40), Ballycasey (50), Djakadam (50), Fingal Bay (50), Harry Topper (50), Ma Filleule (50), Taquin De Seuil (50), The Young Master (50).

These are the top contenders with prices from Oddschecker upto 50/1.  So who do we think has a chance.

Silvianaco C - 3/1 has the best recent form but plenty short enough having his 3rd attempt at the race having been unplaces twice before.
RTR - 10/1 Looks progressive but never been to cheltenham, certainly got a chance but price is short enough.
Holywell - 14/1 Excellent course form 2/2 in Handicaps. Good win at Aintree last season in top novice race, but beaten and fallen this season and looked to be struggling to me when fell behind Sam Winner. Bound to be spot on March, but is he good enough and short again at 14/1 for me.
Bobsworth - 16/1 Apparently ready for first outing at leopardstown and very disappointing. Only Kauto Star has ever regained Gold Cup. Leave alone IMO.
Lord Windermere - 16/1 Should also have done better at leopardstown and only Best Mate retained Gold Cup in last 40 years is enough to put me off.
Many Clouds - 16/1 Progressive 2nd season chaser and Hennessy Winner. No worthwhile Chelt form though but can't write off.
Boston Bob - 20/1 A bit hit and miss but has ability and would have won the RSA from Lord Windermere in 2013 if he hadn't fallen at the last. Decent ground in march could be up his street. Chances.
Sutthefrontdoor - 20/1 Won his last 2 but only 6th in the NH chase and last behind Sam Winner the time before. Going the right way but too short and not sure he has the class.
On His Own - 20/1 Ran a cracker to be 2nd last year and again last week in the Lexus. In and out performer but can put in a good run. not for me but dangerous to completely rule out.
Dynaste - 25/1 Unlikely to run and will probably go for the Ryanair.
Al Ferof - 33/1 likely to run in other championship race.
Capt Chris - Hates Cheltenham not seen out yet an unlikely to run.
Carlingford Lough - 33/1 Ran with promise in Lexus and not disgraced in RSA last year despite 1 or 2 iffy jumps.  Could surprise?
Cue Card - 33/1 Won't run likely Ryanair.
Don Cossack - 33/1 Being aimed at the Ryanair.
Houblon Des Obeaux - 33/1 Was best horse at the weights in the Hennessy and is double the price of Many Clouds but probably needs soft at Cheltenham to give his running. Chance if it rides soft?
Kings Palace - 33/1 Bookies taking the Mick. RSA runner.
Morning Assembly - 33/1  Not seen out yet. Time running out.
Sam Winner - 33/1 Progressing well and Lexus 3rd. Good Chelt form and more than treble Road To Riches price. Looked to have Holywell in trouble at Aintree and more than double his price. Decent EW value but still needs further improvement.
Simonsig - 33/1 not run for nearly 2 years and not run over this distance, big ask.
Sir Des Champs - 33/1 out injured.
Smad Place - 33/1 Needs to improve on Hennessy 5th but 2nd in Last years RSA and 3rd in the previous 2 Stayers hurdles says 33/1 is a bit of value and not impossible.
Wonderful Charm - 33/1 Looks better over shorter.
Champagne Fever - 40/1 Mullins says will not run over this distance.
First Lieutenant - 40/1 Likes decent going and if allowed to take his chance might run into a place. 2nd in RSA behind Bobsworth and filled same position behind Boston Bob at Punchestown last season.
Menorah - 40/1 2 good races this season before flop in the King George. Percentage call is that he will miss out at Cheltenaham over 3 and a quarter miles.
Rubi Ball - 40/1 Not run for over a year and not won for 2 years. Big ask.
The Giant Bolster - 40/1 Comes alive at Cheltenham in Spring 2nd, 3rd & 4th in last 3 Gold Cups. Can't see him winning but would be foolish to dismiss out of hand. Place chances again.
Ballycasey - 50/1 Unlikely to run over this distance.
Djakadam - 50/1 Not good enough in the Hennessy should be double the price and still wouldn't be tempted.
Fingal Bay - 50/1 Broke blood vessel in Hennessy and not seen since. Has Chelt Festival form but a big ask and short on experience.
Harry Topper - 50/1 Would come into calculations if it was heavy, however thats unlikely so passed over.
Ma Filleuile - 50/1 at 3 1/2 times the price of Holywell might be a spot of value but beaten by Sam Winner at Aintree
Taquin De Seuil - 50/1 No chance on this seasons form, but Jonjo does have them ready for March and this lad won at last years Festival.
The Young Master - 50/1 Unlikely to run.

There you goScared
By:
Glossy
When: 02 Jan 15 21:49
I can't see the winner being a horse that has already ran (and failed) in the race.

The winner will come from Road to Riches, Holywell, Many Clouds, Carlingford Lough, Smad Place or Sam Winner.
By:
Glossy
When: 02 Jan 15 21:50
BTW, not sure I agree with your comment that Captain Chris 'hates' Cheltenham, being an Arkle winner!
By:
alleged22
When: 02 Jan 15 22:31
wouldn't nicholls know that SC  and AF  are diferent gravy to SW
By:
Glossy
When: 02 Jan 15 23:04
They are certainly classier, SW is the type to mop up a race that goes off too quick - think Synchronized or LW last year. Think he'll run - especially if we have rain. He's the one with the least chance of the ones I've listed though.
By:
CVByrne
When: 03 Jan 15 11:00
Carlingford Lough ran a blinder for a horse who needed the run in the Lexus. He was only 1l down jumping the last when On his Own jumped across him, he then showed his lack of fitness told in the straight. He wasn't disgraced 8l back. It was amazing how long he was on the go up until April last year. Talk about lots of racing.

He still won 2 grade 1's last season. He jumped poorly in the RSA though he kept plugging on to be only beaten 9l in the end. He may have been jumping poorly due to his unseating on his previous start. I think he'll run a blinder nto in the Hennessy in Feb. AP will be riding him then and he looks a proper stayer bound to end up in the National some day.

Conti was awesome in the King George but how many proper stayers did he beat? I've a feeling a strong brutal Gold Cup is in prospect with On His Own and Conti up making it a serious test of raw stamina. It suited Lord Windermere coming from held up with a charge up the hill last season and Carlingford Lough could do repeat of that and Synchronised's storm from bottom of the hill.

To win a gold cup you need to be a brutal stayer we've seen the past 3/4 winners win it on the run in, not leading after the 2nd last.

33/1 is a very big e/w price with the nrnb concession.
By:
CVByrne
When: 03 Jan 15 11:03
btw, not knocking Conti at all. Massively well deserved fav. 11/4 just isn't a price I like backing at in a race which has lots of murky dangers floating around. Just needs one to run the race of his life and you've lost.
By:
Benjy
When: 03 Jan 15 12:36

Jan 3, 2015 -- 11:03AM, CVByrne wrote:


btw, not knocking Conti at all. Massively well deserved fav. 11/4 just isn't a price I like backing at in a race which has lots of murky dangers floating around. Just needs one to run the race of his life and you've lost.


That last sentence literally applies to any race ever run.

By:
CVByrne
When: 03 Jan 15 12:48
That's nonsense Benjy, horses have a max level of ability. Running the race of its life still means it runs to it's best ability. The level of that ability could be a stone less than the fav's best regardless of how well the horse ran it'll still lose. Many horses who have a a big surprise win have needed fallers or a race to fall apart etc..

But with this Gold Cup we've no idea  what the best of many of these horses is, hence the large number of dangers. Like what about shutthefrontdoor? Or Smad Place? Or Many Clouds etc.. so many can run the race of their lives and prove to be good enough to win a Gold Cup.
By:
shockster
When: 03 Jan 15 13:09
Ok Glossy maybe hates Cheltenham for Captain Chris is a bit strong but he is massively better going right handed. Sam Winner I have no doubt is inferior to S.Conti and Al Ferof, but over 3m2f I would fancy him to beat AF every time. Would you have expected him to beat Boston Bob, Bobsworth and Lord Windermere in the Lexus, yet he did.

CV agree re Carlingford Lough and have added him to my Gold Cup Bets.
By:
Benjy
When: 03 Jan 15 13:49

Jan 3, 2015 -- 12:48PM, CVByrne wrote:


That's nonsense Benjy, horses have a max level of ability. Running the race of its life still means it runs to it's best ability. The level of that ability could be a stone less than the fav's best regardless of how well the horse ran it'll still lose. Many horses who have a a big surprise win have needed fallers or a race to fall apart etc.. But with this Gold Cup we've no idea  what the best of many of these horses is, hence the large number of dangers. Like what about shutthefrontdoor? Or Smad Place? Or Many Clouds etc.. so many can run the race of their lives and prove to be good enough to win a Gold Cup.


Not sure where you're going with this...

If a horse is going to run the 'race of it's life' but can only run to 'the best of it's ability', then the only possible outcome is that we can't have seen that best of yet. Therefore it's a complete unknown how good they could be. It's just a through away statement to try and oppose SC at the price imo.

I would say even those you've named we can gauge what their maximum ability is and it's significantly below that of SC. 

I've not got a bet btw.

By:
CVByrne
When: 03 Jan 15 14:18
Benjy, there are many unexposed horses at the Gold Cup trip is the point.

First Lieutenant is exposed, On His Own is exposed, The Giant Bolster is exposed. We know how good there best is over the trip.

Same can't be said for many of the others. Hence the dangers lurking.
By:
buddeliea
When: 03 Jan 15 14:27
Yeh,ive got C lough on my side after watching the Lexus,thought he ran really well and will improve a lot for that. I Was also impressed with S Winner and think the Gold Cup conditions will really suit him.
Don't really think any of the beaten horses will beat the winner though, and he now for me is the most likely winner.
By:
duffy
When: 04 Jan 15 04:53
I would looking at Holywell for a main bet with a back up on Bobsworth, Holywell is another one that I simply disregard any negative runs throughout the season as you simply know that with this stable perhaps more than any other it's all about getting them to the festival in tip top shape, we know he's a spring horse, we know he'll stay the trip and we know that he is a grade 1 performer under the conditions that are likely in March.

With the race having a very open look about it we're beginning to get several double figure "hopefuls" being put up, usually these are in the shape of very good handicappers that their supporters are hoping can bridge the gap and stay on best in an open race.

I'm more than happy to rely on the O'Neill stable to run to form and get this horse to the race in the same form as he was in last spring, twice a festival winner and a demolition job of Don Cossack and co last April leaves a double figure price about Holywell looking very fair.
By:
buddeliea
When: 04 Jan 15 08:22
Duffy,
The Gold cup over the years has had a fair few handicappers placed and indeed won the race.
This race is a real stayers race and the so called class horses last year failed and I would not be at all surprised if that were to happen again.
I genuinely feel that horses like Houblon,Sam Winner,TGB etc, all available at nice odds,will prove to be threats in this years race.
Sine the likes of Kauto and Denman(class horses) we have had real proper stayers winning and placing in the Gold Cup,its become a handicappers type race in a way,certainly was last year, could well happen again this year.
By:
buddeliea
When: 04 Jan 15 08:46
Howdi
Joined: 13 Oct 04
Replies: 25663
    28 Dec 14 21:23 
sometimes i wish the gold cup wasnt such a test it was - i know it sounds daft and it is a great race but KEMPTON has the best horse of the year winning it, not cheltenham

Love that quote from Howdi........gets you thinking!!

Yep,the best, maybe classiest?? 3 miler normally wins the King George........but the Gold Cup.......totally different.
By:
wellchief
When: 04 Jan 15 11:38
Conti was also suffering from stomach ulsers last year, which Nicholls has said contributed to his weak finish in the Gold Cup, and don't forget he wandered around in the finish of the Aintree Bowl, where he beat the Ryanair winner. 

Everyone seems to have forgiven Al Ferof for his stomach ulsers, but conveniently forget about it for Conti.  Shows his class imo.

Nicholls says all he does is stay, so I take his word for that (he is the master 3m chase trainer), so with the all clear with the ulsers, added to the cheekpieces, and imo this has been his most impressive season in terms of jumping and travelling in his races, he is rightfully favourite for the Gold Cup.
By:
wellchief
When: 04 Jan 15 11:43
After this year's Betfair:

That failure to get up the hill at Cheltenham persuaded some observers that Silviniaco Conti’s stamina did not last out a demanding three-and-a-quarter miles. Paul Nicholls, his trainer, is convinced that the eight-year-old was not right, however, and will design the rest of his schedule this season around getting him back to Prestbury Park to dispel any doubts about his stamina.

“He’s always looked like a non-stayer at Cheltenham but he definitely wasn’t right when he jumped the last in the Gold Cup this year,” Nicholls said. “For some reason last season he hung left and right and didn’t gallop up the hill, and he did the same thing at Aintree [a few weeks later].

“The Monday after Aintree, I gastroscoped him, and he had Grade 4 ulcers, which is the worst you can get. When they come under pressure they can get in pain, and we’ve sorted that out now. I knew there had to be something stopping him at Cheltenham last season, so hopefully we can go forward with him now.”

“That’s two Betfairs and a King George and my mission now is to get him in the form of his life for the Gold Cup,” Nicholls said. “If he’d been right last year we might have had a different result, but he wasn’t and he didn’t but I’m convinced Cheltenham won’t be a problem for him.”
By:
buddeliea
When: 04 Jan 15 13:32
Nice to see hes changed his mind and now thinks Cheltenham wont be a problem after saying hes better on flat tracks.He will have to be at his best to win over 3m2f at Cheltenham imo,with so many tough stayers to beat.
Now the horse has to prove his comments are correct,i wont be taking current price to find out, that's for sure.


No one is doubting his class,just his ability to win a tough 3m2f race at Cheltenham,i think that's fair enough when the horse is pretty short in the betting, and for whatever reasons has failed in that race twice.
No problem with people looking at the excuses..... ulcers or whatever, and now cheekpieces, and thinking that will make a big difference,thats fair enough.
By:
unclepuncle
When: 04 Jan 15 14:07
I think the 'Cheltenham Factor' is overplayed a bit with SC. He was still cruising when falling 3 out 2 years ago, and looked all over the winner half way up the run him last year so clearly handles the fecnes and the undulating course. I guess some may argue he has yet to get up the hill convincingly and this is why I would still prefer to back Lord Windermere at 4 times the price.
By:
buddeliea
When: 04 Jan 15 14:13
Well he was going well last year 3 out, did not fall, and still did not win after jumping the last in front.
The course and distance could well be the reason behind that.
The excuses put up by connections could also have something to do with it.
Up to us what we believe or think, and then look at the odds.
Yep, I would rather look at LW at the prices and a fair few others e/w would appeal as well before 3/1 the fav.
By:
ReaseHeath
When: 04 Jan 15 14:46
aside from the actual form of his runs at Cheltenham, I do wonder why Conti has only had two chase starts (none even as a novice) and three career starts at Cheltenham, can only think that connections are not overly convinced that the course plays to his strengths. I appreciate that his programme as an established chaser does n't lend itself to him running there given the Pillar (or whatever it's called now) would be the only realistic option pre Festival.

Kauto Star did win his first Gold Cup having fallen on his only previous Chase start at Cheltenham but he was only 7yo at the time and a genius of a racehorse (don't get me wrong Conti is very,very good and I'm amongst those who have damned him with faint praise).

If you forced me to bet now, I'd prefer to back something like Smad Place who has solid festival form and would arguably be a tad shorter if not touched off by a neck in last year's RSA by a horse who won't be running.
By:
cufcno1
When: 04 Jan 15 15:15
Holywell will be a different horse in the spring back at Cheltenham,probably with Richie on !
By:
SEATHESTARS....NO1
When: 04 Jan 15 16:16
Can't be touching Jonjo's horses with a proverbial barge pole until at least i see a few run with at least a hint of fitness! For some reason, this season his horses have just not been performing to the level that would be normal. I said this to a friend the other day and we both kinda agreed a little, just a thought, but his stable seems to be under a huge cloud, maybe and dare i say it, a bug in the yard and nothing has or is to be said to the media?

In other seasons you could comfortably say that his horses will come good in the spring etc etc cos he was getting winners and placed horses etc. But he isn't even running to a similar level of runners as he usually does. I for one is keeping my powder well and truly dry as far as this stable is concerned for at least the forseeable!
By:
CVByrne
When: 04 Jan 15 16:23
Oh certainly some sort of illness in Jonjos yard, he's not had a winner since the paddy power meeting in mid November. He's not been putting out many runners and flu jabs time now too. I'd imagine he's hoping they can come back to form in Feb
By:
buddeliea
When: 04 Jan 15 16:42
Holywell never been a realistic price imo,and certainly aint right now.
How on earth hes stayed around 3rd fav after his 2 races this season is beyond me,both races his jumping was pretty poor.
Yes he had a couple of good races at Chelt and Aintree,but not at the level of a Gold Cup,and not to warrant the price hes been antepost imo.
Taquin aint been that good either with his jumping,and anyway he aint a 3m2f horse.

Gambling on the stable rather than the horse if you back either of these imo.
As someone else said....this aint some sort of handicap plot we are talking about!!
By:
wellchief
When: 04 Jan 15 16:58
Noel Meade yet to win a chase at the Cheltenham Festival.  Road to Riches probably his best chance, but I was surprised when I read that.
By:
CVByrne
When: 04 Jan 15 17:06
Those kind of stats don't bother me tbh, sure the last one was he hadn't won a race since Nicanor. Also Montjeu's don't get up the hill etc..

If Noel Meade had Sprinter Sacre would he win a chase? Kauto Star? etc..

What is a stat to worry about is Henderson has only had 4 chase winners in the past 6 months. Four!!! What's up with his chasers?
By:
wellchief
When: 04 Jan 15 17:09
Yeah, it wouldn't stop me backing RTR, just surprised someone of his stature hasn't broken his chase duck yet.
By:
cufcno1
When: 04 Jan 15 17:38
Buddeliea johnjo can win gold cups,he said all along Holywell was a spring horse and hasn't tried to plot anything,I agree the yard has to come back but I'm sure it will,I don't think last year's winner will be far away,sc will be outstayed off something,the question is what ? Holywell was the best novice chaser from last season !
By:
buddeliea
When: 04 Jan 15 17:45
Yes he can,but just talking about current prices...in particular Holywell and his form this season.

Aintree form is not reliable imo when looking at the chelt festival following year, races often containing horses over the top after being trained for Chelt. Some carry their form on to Aintree, some don't.
Personally I don't take a lot of notice of these races when thinking of punting for the following festival.
By:
duffy
When: 04 Jan 15 19:48
We're not talking about handicap plots, but the race is chock full of decent handicappers that people are putting up.

Incidentally

buddeliea 04 Jan 15 16:42 
Holywell never been a realistic price imo,and certainly aint right now.
How on earth hes stayed around 3rd fav after his 2 races this season is beyond me,both races his jumping was pretty poor.
Yes he had a couple of good races at Chelt and Aintree,but not at the level of a Gold Cup


He beat Don Cossack who's since gone from strength to strength himself beating last years gold cup winner, he also had last years RSA winner and this years Hennessy winner in behind and he didn't just beat them, he smashed them to bits and was running away from them at the end of the race, when we consider that this year lacks the proper grade 1 stayer over the trip...this piece of form shines very strongly in my book.
By:
ReaseHeath
When: 04 Jan 15 20:14
You pays your money and you takes the choice.

I can't have it that the O'Faolain's Boy ran to anything like his true (RSA) form at Aintree - he's reported as sustaining the injury which ruled him out for this season during that race too. The Hennessy winner has subsequently smashed Holywell to bits at Carlisle also.

He needs to come out and prove his wellbeing ahead of the Festival for me but if he turns up for the Gold Cup without another run, I could n't really have him on my mind and if he won I would n't regret not backing him either.

S'pose I might feel slightly differently on the morning of the race if Jonjo has already had multiple winners earlier in the week but although it might not be a vintage Gold Cup renewal in terms of quality it is shaping up to be pretty competititive in my opinion.
By:
buddeliea
When: 04 Jan 15 20:38
Duffy

It was a novice chase at the end of season.
The handicap chasers that people are putting up are producing good pefomances this season......big difference imo.
By:
duffy
When: 04 Jan 15 22:20
budd

you make it sound like it was some sort of two bob race at the end of the season that no-one really could bother with, it was a grade 1 race with a decent field contesting it.

Rease

Yes Many Clouds has smashed up Holywell this term but just like with O'Faolain's boy and actually even more so in Holywell's case we know he's far better than that because of what he did to Many Clouds last year....the form of that grade 1 novice chase is very strong in relation to a progression towards this years GC.
By:
judorick
When: 05 Jan 15 12:33
Happy New Year, as it is Initial Entry Stage Day I thought I would drop by and post some predictions, based on the long term stats (33 renewals) about the 2015 Winner. This is all about 'balance of probability', we'll see how many of these the eventual winner matches afterwards. I try to put these in order of most significant to least significant but that's only opinion.

On balance the 2015 Gold Cup winner:

is already a Grade 1 Chase winner
is younger than 10 years old
ran in either the King George or Lexus Chase in 2014
has won a chase at 3 miles +
has not been beaten in the Gold Cup before
is not attempting to defend the title
achieved a top 3 placing in a Grade 1 chase at the 2014 Cheltenham Festival
is a second or third season chaser
has run 15 or fewer times over fences
is Officially rated at least 166
achieved an RPR of at least 167 on either of last 2 starts before the Gold Cup

The other thing I really want to take into account is the Dosage Index of each of the entrants. Apart from about 5 who really fit the averages of previous winners, the rest can be argued whether they will or won't have the stamina so that would be a tool to separate short listed runners.

Champagne Fever does have a snug fit on the dosages but is lacking a Grade 1 at 3 miles. His stablemate SDC won the Irish Hennessy before running 2nd in the Gold Cup (weak renewal imo) so should CF win the same trial he would tick all my boxes.

Anyway, really interesting field. Such a shame O'Faolains Boy went wrong. In hindsight he should have never have run at Aintree.

Just sharing thoughts Wink
By:
judorick
When: 05 Jan 15 12:45
sorry initial entry is tomorrow Blush
By:
Makybe_Diva
When: 05 Jan 15 13:04
Good afternoon, Rick.

An interesting read.

I'm hoping Dynaste or Cue Card can win the Gold Cup this year, should they both get there. Not sure David Pipe is very keen to enter  Dynaste. I hope he does.

Not so hopeful for a Cue Card anymore. Such a pity he had his injury in The KG last year and couldn't get to Cheltenham with Joe.

I will see where Dynaste fits in to your stats.

I'm only just catching up with Saturday's racing. I have just seen Arabian Revolution win for AP. What a gorgeous looking horse. I am in love Love

Liking Mr Mole very much, too.

I bloody love jump racing! Do you realise that 10 weeks today will be Cheltenham Eve. I already have my week booked off work Excited

Nice to see you posting on here. You're not around much these days.

Happy New Year to you Happy
By:
Quvega
When: 05 Jan 15 13:21
Cue Card going for the Ryanair I'm afraid Makybe


COLIN Tizzard has abandoned plans of winning the Cheltenham Gold Cup with Cue Card.

The Milborne Port icon will instead target the shorter Ryanair Chase, a race he won by a record nine lengths in 2013. After the eight-year-old’s fifth place in the William Hill King George VI Chase at Kempton Park on Boxing Day the trainer admitted: “Cue Card doesn’t stay 3m.

“He wasn’t far away two out but didn’t get home. I know he won the Betfair over a shade longer than 3m at Haydock Park last season but on that day he was the only horse who had had the benefit of a previous run.

“We have now tried him three times round Kempton in the King George and three times he has not stayed.”

There is even a doubt about the horse going anywhere because he returned from the King George with a cut fetlock but Tizzard thinks he will recover in time for his Festival appointment over 2m5f on Thursday, March 12.
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