Ozymandius

I seem to recall that Sean Yates had a stroke a few years ago.

"Wiggins an average climber" .... that is some average! It is interesting that Froome sits behind Bradley for a bit more cover until his turn comes in the last 10km after Richie Porte is cooked.

I really think that people are confusing acceleration up a mountain with speed up a mountain. Nibali and Froome both showed tremendous acceleration on the steep stuff yesterday; however Brad kept a steady pace and caught Nibali. Froome is no doubt a precious talent and he will have his day.

Harry (respect to you) - in general you are correct that climbing is much more important than time trialling in the Grand Tours. In general they are won by the best climber who can timetrial (rather than the best timetrialist who can climb). TdF this year is more skewed towards timetrialling with only 3 summit finishes and 100km of trials.

This notion that Froome can cycle away from Wiggo and sustain it has never been proven and I believe flawed. The only evidence is a couple of impressive kicks and the very well documented instances in the Vuelta. There has never been a sustained break by Froome so the hypothesis that his ability is enough to cycle away is speculation. The punters that think he could might be right (again respect), but the evidence of training and what has actually happened is far from conclusive and not 'clear'.

I return to the unarguable point that Brailsford and Yates picked Wiggins to lead Sky because he is better than Froome ... if not then Froome would be leader. Respect their decision?

I will be the first to back Froome for a Grand Tour when he is leading Sky. Contador v Froome will be something special!!

Ozy - American?! Good grief no. Why did you come to that conclusion? I'm far too articulate for a Yank!

It's not really an issue because
a) Froome had that puncture in the first week and (because he wasn't protected) he lost significant time
b) There isn't really any threat to either of them as there was in the Vuelta (Cobo)

If Froome is only 30 secs behind and say Evans is on last year's form then clearly there would be a question as to who actually is their best bet for victory (i.e. would Froome gain more time in the mountain stages than Wiggins would in the TTs ? )

As we know in the Vuelta they had Froome work for Wiggins even when Froome was clearly one of the strongest riders in the race, then Froome proved by far the strongest, but their inflexible tactics cost them (and Froome) the race

GoBallistic
13 Jul 12 11:18
Joined:
20 Nov 00
| Topic/replies: 1,463 | Blogger: GoBallistic's blog
It's not really an issue because
a) Froome had that puncture in the first week and (because he wasn't protected) he lost significant time
b) There isn't really any threat to either of them as there was in the Vuelta (Cobo)





go ballistic he lost significant time because it was 4.5km from home and just outside the 3km rule which would of given him the same time nothing to do with being protected...his team mate paced him back but it was to late and the time had gone...

fair points otherwise

hod also some fair points although i don't believe that froome going away from wiggo is flawed

for me though when a guy can kick and show that acceleration up the mountain shows he (froome) had plenty left to give (as he did when giving wiggo and evans his wheel for 3km up the first mountain, that is strength, a very good climber...

wiggo has always been the same i.e same pace, the one pace but yesterday he would of been isolated and would of been broken by froome just my opinion and stand by it...

I am not saying froome would have got all the time back yesterday but he certainly would had pulled back plenty as rodgers had gone and wiggo had nothing to protect him

the tour is probably over now and those that took the 6/4 have done well and well done to you...but for me it is a tainted victory for wiggins and one that we will never know who rightly should of won but in horse racing terms froome has been pulled...

and I who had decent wager on froome at 36 down to 32 pre tour will just have to lick my wounds...

just one more point - those that have held froome back from being a tour winner potentially, may regret the decision, as may he when the major players come back next year i.e the greatest climber of all alberto contador and an equally great climber andy schleck who epitomizes the great race for me

be lucky

I think froome would likely have taken time out of wiggins given permission. But we will never know. Should be exciting next year though. I've layed froome. His win odds should be the odds that wiggins meets with disaster for whatever reason and should be around 20-30 IMO. Who ever is backing him into such short odds doesn't seem to understand the situation.

Harry, surely if people had "watched a lot of tour de france's"  they'd know that its tourS deS franceS, no?

Actually it's Tours de France.

Your version means Tours of the Frances, or Tours of Frances. Implies there's more than one France, as well as more than one tour.

Harry, I wasn't intending to pull you up as you put it, but Skewball.

In retrospect I kind of missed the 'mischief' face, and the fact that he was joking.

I thought he was being a pedant, and failing at that to boot.

No offence intended to either of you.

I generally only pick people up on their grammar or spelling if they're slagging other people off, particularly if they're questioning another poster's intelligence.

no problem chaps...

debating today whether to lay off all my chris froome green...awful situation and a bet is a bet and was my strongest ever opinion i have had on a tour...but as clay davis thread states is it time to take the handbrake off chris froome??? i am having doubts now and might just take the easy money...but then knowing my run at the moment they will take the handbrake off and i will be cursing lol

In the interests of seeing a race I'm hoping Froome ignores team orders in the final week

He'd probably cost himself a few hundred grand in contractual obligations/bonuses aswell

Wiggins very strong today. Blew Froome off his wheel when Froome was supposed to be wing man.

Where the eck is Froome going to take time off Wiggins even if he decided on his own from tommorrow he was doing his own thing??
Get in the real world it aint going to happen.

It will be the last ride of his professional career if he ignored team orders so I can't really see it!

What garbage. There are riders who have ignored team orders for ages. Vinokourov and some slightly bonkers Russian whose name escapes me at the mo.

Froome is easily good enough to get a contract at several of the ProTour teams, and him blowing his top in frustration in the second successive grand tour in which he's been held back would be forgiven by a number of team bosses.

As things stand and barring accidents, Froome realistically needs at least 2.30 on Wiggins, and it would be a terrible judgement call for Sky to let him off the leash.

If I was him I'd be looking for a cast iron (as in written) guarantee from Brailsford that he'd be given a shot as team leader at one of the grand tours next year with proper support, or I'd want to leave. Having a cyclist who doesn't want to race for you is even more damaging than a footballer who doesn't want to play for you.

I think there are very few riders who'd rock the boat to that degree nowadays. Maybe 20 years ago but everything is so professional and high-stakes now that its far less likely to happen.

p.s. I went to a talk this evening with Shane Sutton and he hinted strongly (v much 'off the record') that Wiggins wouldnt be riding the tour next year so I wouldnt be at all surprised to see Froome as sky's tour de france GC man in 2013.

Think it would be very interesting if BMC let the handbrake off Van Garderen.
If SKY did the same we would be in for a right treat this coming week,as he and Froome imo look stronger than Wiggins and Evans.
Wont happen though - shame i think.

Good read here from the guardian


History shows Chris Froome that there is only room for self-sacrifice

The Sky rider must be prepared to suppress his own Tour de France ambitions to help his team-mate Bradley Wiggins retain the yellow jersey



Chris Froome
Chris Froome, right, is expected to support Sky team-mate Bradley Wiggins, left, as he tries to retain the Tour's yellow jersey. Photograph: Bryn Lennon/Getty Images

Some of cycling's most enduring and hotly debated plotlines have emerged when two equally talented and ambitious cyclists on the same team find themselves racing for the same prize. The dilemma Team Sky faced as the Tour de France entered its final week, with Bradley Wiggins and Chris Froome lying first and second overall respectively, was one that cycling teams had encountered in the past – and history indicated that the team's management would be tested as never before.

The problem stems from the fact that cycling is an individual sport run on a team basis. Talented cyclists are expected to subjugate their ambitions to those of the collective, in feudal style. Hence the sight, on this Tour, of Michael Rogers, Richie Porte and Froome – all capable of leading a team in their own right – working selflessly for Wiggins. The system only breaks down when a designated worker becomes aware of his ability and his ambition, and becomes frustrated, which is what appeared to be happening with Froome on Thursday, at the toughest mountain-top finish at La Toussuire in the French Alps.

Wiggins had already had to restrain the Kenyan-born climber from setting too high a pace at the first summit finish, La Planche des Belles Filles, last Saturday, when the Londoner took the yellow jersey. Froome had to be drawn back again this week when, having sat on the back of the lead group to recover for a short while, he attacked, briefly leaving Wiggins behind.

The problem, clearly, was that the race leader might lose time to two of his key rivals, Vincenzo Nibali and Jurgen Van Den Broeck. Froome had started the stage almost two minutes behind Wiggins, having lost more than a minute on the first stage with a puncture and a further 35 seconds in Monday's time trial, and the risk was obvious: if he gained time on his leader, so too might those rivals, potentially putting the entire race at risk.

The twist in the Wiggins-Froome tale is that the pair had been in this situation before. At last year's Tour of Spain, they surprised themselves by being in the mix at the sharp end of the race. Wiggins was coming back from a broken collarbone, Froome from the illness bilharzia. Froome was expected to work for his leader when Wiggins took the leader's jersey, but beat him in a key time trial, then rode for him at a crucial summit finish when he was probably capable of contesting the overall win.

Froome finished second to the Spaniard Juan José Cobo by just 13 seconds; the race looked to have been lost largely because Sky were in unknown territory, with a leader who was not in his best form and a second-in-command who had never performed at that level before. The situation now is different, because Wiggins has a two-minute advantage on Froome and the rest, and unleashing the little climber could risk others eating into that as well.

History suggests this is a tough situation to manage unless the hierarchy is clearly stated. In 2009, the Astana team boasted Alberto Contador and Lance Armstrong as leaders. Contador won the Tour, but, by the end, the team had split into two camps, with Armstrong sniping at the Spaniard on Twitter. The most extreme episode dates back to the 1987 Giro d'Italia, when Stephen Roche and Roberto Visentini were going for the win. Roche attacked the Italian when he was wearing the pink jersey – he claims in his recent autobiography that the Italian had gone back on a deal to help him in the Tour de France – and the team fell to pieces, with the Irishman going on to win, largely helped by one domestique and the Scotsman Robert Millar, who rode for a rival team.

The Froome-Wiggins situation has an uncannily close parallel in one Tour in particular, that of 1985, when Bernard Hinault of France started the race as the uncontested leader of the La Vie Claire team, tilting for his fifth win, with the American, Greg LeMond, as his designated domestique. As the race progressed, Hinault took the yellow jersey, but weakened in the final week after a crash. LeMond got stronger and sensed he might be able to win himself. On one key stage in the Pyrenees, LeMond got in an escape with other contenders, leaving Hinault behind. He was ordered not to collaborate, in exactly the same way that Froome was reined in at La Toussuire. LeMond remained convinced that had he ridden for himself, he would have won the Tour.

The Hinault-LeMond plot thickened the following year because, in 1985, the formal agreement was that the Frenchman would assist the American. LeMond eventually won that Tour, but only after being pushed to the limit by Hinault, who insisted that any attacks he made were to soften up the opposition, toughen up the American and make the race entertaining. A quarter of a century later, LeMond remained convinced that Hinault had tried to win for himself, while Hinault maintained he was capable of winning but had enabled his team-mate to do so.

More than two decades after his dispute with Roche, meanwhile, Visentini could barely tolerate hearing the Irishman's name spoken in his presence. The plotlines fascinate, but the faultlines they open run deeper than most of us can imagine.

wiggins beat him 2 mins in time trial - so therefore hes no1 ,might look a bit better up the odd hill ,but froome would loose it again at time trial - so ,only one can win ,per centage call is wiggins,no point froome lettings wiggins loose a minute cos he left him then a none sky rider beats wiggins by a min - you deciede who as best chance and go with that ,unless something alters.

Wiggins beat him about 40 secs in the main one iirc. Froome lost a minute to a puncture. Not sure where the other 20 secs were.

froome lost 1min 24seconds to puncture