Irish Sports
There is currently 1 person viewing this thread.
for those of you who don't read "de paper", the following is pat keane's thoughts on the noble emperor episode at limerick. at least one journalist is calling a spade a spade and the most salient points he makes are in his final two paragraphs.
"There is a perception in Irish racing that when the stewards spring into serious action you can be reasonably certain those on the receiving end will qualify as “little guys’’.
Well, the Limerick stewards last Sunday didn’t half turn that particular theory upside down, going after some of the biggest fish in the sea.
That they had the balls to lift their collective heads miles above the parapet has to be regarded as highly commendable, whether you agree or not with the severity of the punishments they applied.
Noble Emperor, in a handicap hurdle, was given a puzzling drive by Barry Geraghty and the stewards were left with absolutely no option but to take action.
The horse is owned by J P McManus, with Geraghty in his first season as his number one, after replacing Tony McCoy.
A 30-day suspension for Geraghty, 60 days for the horse and a €3,000 fine for Noble Emperor’s trainer, Tony Martin, was a fair First things first. The stewards just had to react to what had unfolded before them. Noble Emperor went off the 7-4 favourite to beat six rivals and at no stage of the race did his supporters have any cause for optimism.
old statement by those in the inner sanctum.
I have read and heard rubbish this week about the mildly ragged start to the race, but that had no bearing at all on what subsequently transpired.
The winner, Velocity Boy, went straight into the lead and by the time he was at the first flight, the favourite was already miles out of his ground.
Look at the contest as they headed to the third from home. Geraghty is still sitting motionless, almost as if he doesn’t realise that the race is entering its final stages.
We see a good shot of the horses leaving that third last behind and still there is no sense Geraghty is about to get down and dirty.I watched the head-on up the straight this week and, quite honestly, Geraghty could not be accused of throwing the kitchen sink at his mount, indeed he actually does very little.
In the end Noble Emperor did all of his best work in the closing stages and, at the line, was a never nearer 11 lengths second.
The stewards quickly went into conclave, handed down the penalties and the one that caught everyone’s imagination, of course, was the thirty days for Geraghty.
Then this week, out of the woodwork, came those scrambling to be on side, most of whom seeing little wrong with what occurred.
Well, at best, this raised real question marks. I have no idea what the true Noble Emperor story was, perhaps the most logical explanation is that this was simply an ill-judged ride on the part of Geraghty.
But the stewards clearly didn’t see it that way and they acted accordingly. Geraghty, in his evidence, said the horse needs to be covered up and delivered late.
But when Noble Emperor won an admittedly weak beginners chase at Fairyhouse in January of last year, he was up front throughout, eventually scoring by 22 lengths.
When he was second behind the useful Very Wood in a Grade 2 chase at Navan in February of last year, Noble Emperor made most of the running.
When Noble Emperor scored over flights at Punchestown at the end of December, Geraghty drove him into the lead heading to the last.
The stewards were right to act so decisively, anything less would surely have been regarded as a dereliction of duty.
The integrity of racing and ensuring that punters can wager with confidence is of paramount importance.
This week as well, we had to endure endless waffle that if Geraghty was guilty then so were the other jockeys for not chasing the all-the-way winner much earlier. Bullshit.
Watch the race closely and you will soon conclude that not one of the other five runners could have been an inch closer to Velocity Boy at the end.
Through the final half a mile or so all five of those jockeys were more animated than Geraghty. A good example, for instance, is the third horse home, Cliff House.
He tried hard to close down the leader early in the straight and was in front of Noble Emperor at this stage.
His rider, Brian O’Connell, was rowing away but, in testing conditions, Cliff House was running up and down on the one spot in a matter of strides.
By the time the winning post was reached, Cliff House was legless, beaten a total of 26 lengths and 15 lengths adrift of Noble Emperor.
In contrast to the other horses in the contest, with the exception of Velocity Boy, Noble Emperor came home relatively well.
If the stewards erred then it was probably that they went too far and, in particular, depriving Geraghty from making a living for so long did strike one as a trifle harsh.
We know that both Geraghty and Martin are set to appeal and history tells us the likelihood is that the sentences will be greatly reduced.
But, no matter what happens going forward, Irish racing owes the Limerick stewards a debt of gratitude.
It cannot have been easy for them having to arrive at such conclusions when some of the biggest juggernauts in racing were involved. They have put down a marker and that is no bad thing."
"There is a perception in Irish racing that when the stewards spring into serious action you can be reasonably certain those on the receiving end will qualify as “little guys’’.
Well, the Limerick stewards last Sunday didn’t half turn that particular theory upside down, going after some of the biggest fish in the sea.
That they had the balls to lift their collective heads miles above the parapet has to be regarded as highly commendable, whether you agree or not with the severity of the punishments they applied.
Noble Emperor, in a handicap hurdle, was given a puzzling drive by Barry Geraghty and the stewards were left with absolutely no option but to take action.
The horse is owned by J P McManus, with Geraghty in his first season as his number one, after replacing Tony McCoy.
A 30-day suspension for Geraghty, 60 days for the horse and a €3,000 fine for Noble Emperor’s trainer, Tony Martin, was a fair First things first. The stewards just had to react to what had unfolded before them. Noble Emperor went off the 7-4 favourite to beat six rivals and at no stage of the race did his supporters have any cause for optimism.
old statement by those in the inner sanctum.
I have read and heard rubbish this week about the mildly ragged start to the race, but that had no bearing at all on what subsequently transpired.
The winner, Velocity Boy, went straight into the lead and by the time he was at the first flight, the favourite was already miles out of his ground.
Look at the contest as they headed to the third from home. Geraghty is still sitting motionless, almost as if he doesn’t realise that the race is entering its final stages.
We see a good shot of the horses leaving that third last behind and still there is no sense Geraghty is about to get down and dirty.I watched the head-on up the straight this week and, quite honestly, Geraghty could not be accused of throwing the kitchen sink at his mount, indeed he actually does very little.
In the end Noble Emperor did all of his best work in the closing stages and, at the line, was a never nearer 11 lengths second.
The stewards quickly went into conclave, handed down the penalties and the one that caught everyone’s imagination, of course, was the thirty days for Geraghty.
Then this week, out of the woodwork, came those scrambling to be on side, most of whom seeing little wrong with what occurred.
Well, at best, this raised real question marks. I have no idea what the true Noble Emperor story was, perhaps the most logical explanation is that this was simply an ill-judged ride on the part of Geraghty.
But the stewards clearly didn’t see it that way and they acted accordingly. Geraghty, in his evidence, said the horse needs to be covered up and delivered late.
But when Noble Emperor won an admittedly weak beginners chase at Fairyhouse in January of last year, he was up front throughout, eventually scoring by 22 lengths.
When he was second behind the useful Very Wood in a Grade 2 chase at Navan in February of last year, Noble Emperor made most of the running.
When Noble Emperor scored over flights at Punchestown at the end of December, Geraghty drove him into the lead heading to the last.
The stewards were right to act so decisively, anything less would surely have been regarded as a dereliction of duty.
The integrity of racing and ensuring that punters can wager with confidence is of paramount importance.
This week as well, we had to endure endless waffle that if Geraghty was guilty then so were the other jockeys for not chasing the all-the-way winner much earlier. Bullshit.
Watch the race closely and you will soon conclude that not one of the other five runners could have been an inch closer to Velocity Boy at the end.
Through the final half a mile or so all five of those jockeys were more animated than Geraghty. A good example, for instance, is the third horse home, Cliff House.
He tried hard to close down the leader early in the straight and was in front of Noble Emperor at this stage.
His rider, Brian O’Connell, was rowing away but, in testing conditions, Cliff House was running up and down on the one spot in a matter of strides.
By the time the winning post was reached, Cliff House was legless, beaten a total of 26 lengths and 15 lengths adrift of Noble Emperor.
In contrast to the other horses in the contest, with the exception of Velocity Boy, Noble Emperor came home relatively well.
If the stewards erred then it was probably that they went too far and, in particular, depriving Geraghty from making a living for so long did strike one as a trifle harsh.
We know that both Geraghty and Martin are set to appeal and history tells us the likelihood is that the sentences will be greatly reduced.
But, no matter what happens going forward, Irish racing owes the Limerick stewards a debt of gratitude.
It cannot have been easy for them having to arrive at such conclusions when some of the biggest juggernauts in racing were involved. They have put down a marker and that is no bad thing."
sort by:
Show
per page
Replies: 101
|
By:
wellsaid pat keane
|
|
By:
Hopefully the stewards decision is upheld in full ...
|
|
By:
I'm no apologist for JP, BG or Tony Martin but there's plenty in this article I disagree with. The gluey ground conditions in Limerick saw five really easy winners who handled the ground far better than the rest.Harry Fry's horse in the bumper tried to go with Without Limites and practically walked over the line as a result.
In Noble Emperor's race, which was after all a handicap where they should all have a chance, the winner absolutely bowled along out in front while none of the other six had come off the bridle 7 furlongs out. Three of these were behind NE.The first to be pushed, Mr Cosmopolitan, died a death straight away.Cliff House was next to give chase and died also. Pat Keane says "In the end Noble Emperor did all of his best work in the closing stages and, at the line,was a never nearer 11 lengths second". This is just not true yet it appears to be the justification for the 30 day ban. He was as close to the winner between the last 2 hurdles as he was at the line.He wasn't closing down the very easy winner,it was just that the horses behind him were all legless. Sure, Geraghty could have made his move earlier as all the other jockeys could have, but it would have made no difference whatsoever to the result. The ban will be overturned. |
|
By:
i expect the ban will be shorter..but over turned? geraghty made no attempt to put the horse in the race? i hope the ban stands and its a shot accross the bows of irish trainers owners etc..we all know what goes on, but its epidemic in some cases..with this case and the notorious jim best, at least something has been done...
|
|
By:
Yes it may not be overturned completely but I'd say 4/5 days max is all it deserves. But Tony, why single out Geraghty when none of the jockeys made an attempt, for half the race, to put their horse in the race?
|
|
By:
tonys right..the other jockeys all tried at various times during the race but had no horse under them..
|
|
By:
If these penalties are overturned the last man out should turn off the light.
|
|
By:
As said already on other threads on the forum concerning this subject i,d agree with Pat. The start was immaterial and the rest of the other runners finished tired.
One of these ones where i'd actually like the original penalty to be raised. I think unfortunately it will be cut for the reason it would taint Geraghty's career to a large extent if it stands.Overall it would be a travesty but there is no excuse for that ride. |
|
By:
Totally agree that the start was irrelevant and the others finished tired, or had no horse under them when asked for an effort. So what does that tell us?-that the pace they went off was the correct one, had they gone any quicker early on they wouldn't be home yet.Noble Emperor didn't quicken or close on the winner when BG (eventually) asked him, he just stayed on at the same pace whereas the others died. If Geraghty rode that race 20 times in 20 different ways he wouldn't have beaten Velocity Boy. The winner won with the proverbial ton in hand.I see worse rides every day of the week. Now I don't deny that JP and TM are no angels, but the 30 day ban for BG in this specific case is,in my opinion, ridiculous.
|
|
By:
NOBLE EMPEROR TO RELISH THE FORECAST UNDERFOOT CONDITIONS IN LIMERICK HANDICAP HURDLE
At Limerick on Sunday, I am on NOBLE EMPEROR (2.25) in the two-mile Book Online At www.limerickraces.ie Handicap Hurdle. He has top weight, but he stayed on well at Gowran Park four weeks ago to finish a close second behind Toon River. He is 4lb lower over hurdles than he is over fences, and he put up a nice performance to win a two-and-a-half-mile hurdle at Punchestown on New Year’s Eve. This will be just his fourth run over hurdles, and he should appreciate the soft ground, with plenty of rain forecast. This is what he said in his blog that weekend |
|
By:
The pace of the race should have suited noble emperor seeing he stands further.The Handicaper did not think Velocity Boy had a ton in hand he put him up 6lbs only and noble emperor a 1lb.
|
|
By:
First Time Visor , you should read Simon Rowlands in the Irish Field last week doing his sectional timing analysis on the race - ''Leader Velocity Boy got to the second flight ( after more than half a mile ) a couple of lengths slower than the leaders in the preceding ordinary maiden hurdle ( which had been run at a true not breakneck pace) with Noble Emperor and the rest 20 lengths or so adrift of him .. It should be no great surprise that Velocity Boy failed to come back in such circumstances... '' .
On this comparative analysis you have to wonder could Geraghty and his other experienced colleagues be guilty of such gross incompetence in letting the leader loose off a far from tearaway pace or is there a more sinister inference to be drawn ? |
|
By:
That would confirm what I said earlier that Velocity Boy had set off in a controlled manner and was not out of control. Considering what has since transpired it could be said that the start could be viewed in a different light also. However that may be very unfair but it confirms how ridiculous the starts are in Ireland and perhaps everything has become lax and needs quite a bit of tightening up. Perhaps that day in Limerick may signal a new beginning but I wouldnt hold my breath.
|
|
By:
Stellar, only a few counted in that maiden hurdle and they went off too fast. Only the fav(winner) got home. Ruby came from way back on a slow one to nab second.
Velocity Boy is fast and a good horse on his day. He led Douvan and Sizing John over the second last in the Punchestown grade 1 last year so he has a lot more speed than Noble Emperor. Yes, you are right, it was no surprise he failed to come back.He was clearly on a going day. Lots of money for him too. And yes it wasn't just Geraghty, but his experienced colleagues as well, who gave him a solo. But was there really much they could do about it? How many of these 6 handicappers have the speed to lead Douvan and Sizing John to two out at grade 1 level at level weights? From early on it was obvious,and reasonable enough to expect it would happen, that their only chance was if Velocity Boy hit a wall but he galloped to the line full of running. There may be something more to it.I don't know but possibly something may come to light at the appeal. But unless this is so I can see the stewards getting destroyed next week. |
|
By:
FTV , we are talking about Velocity Boy here ( a handicapper rated 9lbs inferior pre race to Noble Emperor , it was a handicap after all ) not Limestone Lad flying off in front of hopelessly overmatched animals in a conditions race. How can you say they went off too fast in the maiden hurdle when 5 lengths covered the field of 11 jumping the first hurdle and yet the finishing time was 4.8 secs slower than the Velocity Boy handicap ?
|
|
By:
Well if they got to the second hurdle a few lengths faster and finished 4.8 seconds slower then its a fair bet they went off too fast
Velocity Boy can run free but settled well enough this time. I would say hes better than his mark. Not the most consistent but when he settles and gets those glue pot conditions he has the pace to get away and stay galloping.True hes just a handicapper but a well handicapped one |
|
By:
Velocity Boy went much faster after passing the stands first time than the maiden hurdle not surprisingly given the disparity in class between him and the maiden hurdle horses and this accounts for the difference in overall time between the two races. The key thing is that he had already had a huge lead gifted to him before he really stepped on the gas during this period of the race - the key part of the race was over namely the early part of it and the outcome was inevitable from that point . As an earlier poster has mentioned , the handicapper is not exactly quaking in his boots about Velocity Boy being well handicapped - only raised 6lbs for a wide margin with a pound for Noble Emperor.
|
|
By:
On 13 March , Velocity Boy ran in the 2.50 at Navan . He was last for most of the race , settled there , made up ground from the 3rd last ( where he was still last) , and finished second . 6/1 chance .
On 27 march , Velocity Boy ran in Cork , held up towards rear ( jockey settled him there , pulling and throwing his head about ) , progress into 5th 3 out , ridden before 2 out , no impression last , kept on same pace run in . 5/1 . So on 3 April he comes out at Limerick , and instead of being settled in rear as in 2 most recent appearances , he comes out of the collecting area in front , is allowed a 3 lengths start by the starter ( or the other jockeys) , steals another 6 lengths or more before the first hurdle , maintains a decent gallop from there on winning comfortably . Different tactics ? Noble Emperor spent most of previous season over fences , on 5 March he ran second in a handicap chase where he was held up , finishing second . I had no interest in the race at Limerick , but had I , I would not have been taking the view that Noble Emperor was a good thing , and certainly would not have been backing him . Apart from anything else it was a long time since he had run over hurdles . Having watched the race several times I would conclude that Velocity Boy ran far better than his 2 previous outings indicated , allied to different tactics ( which had worked in the past but had been set aside for whatever reason in his runs on 13 and 27 March where he was restrained in last place for most of those 2 races ). Noble Emperor ran to his mark in relation to the other horses in the race , beating them comfortably as it happened, but Velocity Boy had stolen the race by the time Noble Emperor and the others attempted to catch him . If Geraghty was guilty of allowing Velocity Boy to set up a winning lead , so were the other jockeys . Noble Emperor was never out of his ground in relation to the other 5 horses in the race , all of them finished well behind him . Noble Emperor is no world beater , but had Velocity Boy not been in the race we would have been saying Geraghty had ridden a comfortable winner . The imponderable is any information the stewards had which we the general public are unaware of . Plus the fact that Geraghty was not the only guilty party as defined by the stewards , trainer was fined heavily , and horse banned for a period . If Geraghty was under instructions to hold the horse up , he did just that , but if in dong that he sacrificed any chance of winning the race , so did the other jockeys who finished behind him . Every race is different , tactics play a large part in a lot of races where relatively average horses are involved . Velocity Boy ran considerably better on 3 April than he did on 13 and 27 March races . Backers of Noble Emperor are entitled to the view that Geraghty was not vigorous enough on Noble Emperor when it was obvious that Velocity Boy had set up a long lead and was maintaining it with only 3 hurdles to be jumped , Noble Emperor is no Istabraq and having been jumping fences for his previous six or seven ( or more ) runs , he was never going to ping the last 3 and make up 2 lengths at each . In my view , Geraghty and the other jockeys in the race should have been called in , questioned as to the efforts shown by each jockey and horse , and if anything surfaced from those interviews the connections of the winner might have had to answer questions re improvement in form . Unless the stewards ( more likely stipe) had more information than us normal race watchers, the 30 day ban seems excessive . If there was any question of actually not wanting the horse to win , it was a hurdle race , and if Velocity Boy had fallen Noble Emperor would have been a comfortable winner . If you are trying to ensure that a horse gets beaten , you dont take that chance . |
|
By:
Noble Emperor won over hundles on 31 of december 2015.Not so long a go.
|
|
By:
See that Velocity Boy's next engagement is the Punchestown Champion H'dle (Grade 1) on Friday 29th...must be a gud un !
|
|
By:
Velocity Boy had been settling a little better in his two previous races when held up and running well and this time settled well enough in front and saw his race out well. I think that was the key to the improved performance.
Noble Emperor is more of a stayer and did stay on. Take the winner out and Noble Emperor would have won 15 lengths. The handicapper took the view that NE gave an improved performance from his previous mark( up one pound) over a trip short of his best which should give the defence team plenty to argue about at the appeal. |
|
By:
The jockey in Downpatrick in the Betfair laying case got a 3 or 4 years ban for not trying on a horse that was laid for a place for big amounts by the owners/connections thereof. In Asian jurisdictions you will get 6/12 months ban for not getting your best finishing position even though you didnt stop it from winning and when you time your challenge too late in suspicious fashion and fail to get up you get a two year ban as the former champion jockey in Singapore did a couple of years ago. In that context , is a 30 day ban really excessive even if it is above the Irish norm ? Pat Keane has exposed the nonsense about the hold up tactics being necessary for this horse based on his profile in the past and as for the Nuremberg defence of Barry Geraghty and not wanting to depart from his riding instructions , a seven pound claimer could make some plausible argument to that effect but not a top class experienced pilot - it would not surprise me if the Stewards felt their intelligence was being insulted by that and put the boot in accordingly.
|
|
By:
We all look at things a bit differently Firsttime which is a good thing and a lot of it is only conjecture as the jockey is probably the only one that really knows how much horse is left.
Imo the crux of the matter is why didn't he try to close until the 2nd last? The "sinister" answer there is he was afraid VB would fall in a hole. The "innocent" answer is he thought he would. Again i'm with Pat,surely he should have tried to close sooner and why didn't he try to? Pat also shows the "have to be held up" isn't necessary true. |
|
By:
Missed that one cloone river , Punchestown . Maiden hurdle , 11/8 fav. Must look it up to see if he beat anything .
|
|
By:
Pa, every day of the week horses go off too fast and the other jockeys have to make a judgement call. Mostly, the best jockeys call it right.If VB had fallen in a hole 2 furlongs out, as all bar one of his pursuers did even though ridden more conservatively, nobody would have batted an eye and the assumed wisdom would have been that Barry Cash gave the well fancied 2-1 shot a brain dead ride and the other jockeys were right to ignore him.
Its a thin line. Cash got it right. The horse hosed up. BG was'nt just riding to beat VB. He had 5 others in a tight handicap to worry about too. The fact that all 6 behind were still travelling on the bridal past halfway, 3 of them sitting behind NE, when the race was already VB's to lose, shows that ALL the jockeys, not just BG, misjudged it.This is my point. How can BG be singled out? We know that when BG did ask for an effort he didn't quicken or narrow the gap, it was just that the horses behind became further detached.Had he ridden a finish a furlong earlier he may or may not have got a length or 2 closer but it would have made no difference whatsoever to the result but the optics may have been better. Imo no matter how NE was ridden he could not have beaten VB on the day. Hindsight is wonderful. Everybody has an opinion(myself included) after a race as to how it should have been ridden but the jockeys have to make spur of the moment decisions and judgement calls and its inevitable that some they can make mistakes for no sinister reasons. |
|
By:
FTV, we are after all talking about one of our top jockeys ,who has ridden the winner of every major race worth winning.A trainer who has trained winners at the highest level , a owner who leaves nothing to chance , now put those 3 together and what do you come up with ,a team at the top ,there has been mumerings around the same team practically every week on here . are you saying they didn't do their homework on the race ,would they not have looked into All possibilites and come to a conclusion . What amazes me is , the fact that NE was said to need futher , is given a strongish pace to help him ,yet is held so far back that when they do decide to go after the winner he finds little ,strange or what...
|
|
By:
He was singled out because he appeared to have a lot of horse left FTV,the others were dead,point that did they ride poorly in giving the winner too much rope is fair enough but it comes back to Noble Emperor not looking as if it had a race til 2f out.
Agree that Velocity Boy would have won on the day very probably,very fancied, also being backed from 4/1 to 2/1. I'd love to apologise for the jockey and usually do but for someone of Barry's calibre to ride like that and the colours and stable to boot.Do i think the horse ran on its merits? I don't,that day wasn't the day. |
|
By:
Workrider, I'm not defending the team in general. I'm talking about this specific case strictly on its merits. If it was any other owner, trainer or jockey I would still have the same opinion. VB tore the race apart. NE doesn't have the pace to live with him over 2 miles.
Pa, the damage was done before half way. Every jockey behind sat still. None of them knew when on the bridle what they would find off it so either all guilty or none guilty. |
|
By:
Its simple. Most people know it stinks to high heavens just like plenty of other instances
|
|
By:
... Anyone who says otherwise is deluded or has some sort of vested interest.Surely the starter also has questions to answer. Either he is incompetent or something worse. The winner was backed from about 4/1 and I cant remember but certainly NE's price did not contract. Was there more to this than a horse getting a soft lead. Smelly smelly.
|
|
By:
Arkle, I'm saying otherwise and I have no vested interest or had no bet in the race. There's plenty saying otherwise who had no vested interest either and who are not deluded. I have no problem at all with you having an opinion but I just don't share it.
|
|
By:
Firsttimevisor makes a good point about all the hold up jockeys not knowing for sure they would find nothing when push came to shove.Some of them had ground/ long absence from the track issues to engender pessimism at the start but does that justify why they refused to line up at the start and crawled to the first flight behind a horse who was not going half as fast as he appeared to be visually ? The race was over at the first hurdle not at half way which does raise an integrity issue.
|
|
By:
The King had no clothes on and the Stewards stood up and said so on the day,sad state of affairs that we have to applaud them for doing so as it's been going on for eons (We all know it).....
|
|
By:
Stellar I agree with you that the race was over very early. The question I would ask was it over even before the start. Firstime wasnt aiming my thoughts at you and apologies if it came across that way. My problem overall is that at most Irish meetings there are a number of non-triers and its going on for years and nothing is being done about it. Today is not the day and all the other cute hoor stuff that goes on only turns off the casual racegoer who is loathe to return to get his pockets picked again.
|
|
By:
Punches 100% correct.
|
|
By:
there are so many vested intrests at work in irish racing.journalists etc in with this one and that one..the comments here reflect a better judgement of it and what went on i think...like johnny ward(who i like) had a completely different read of it than pat keane(i also like).johnny made a very telling statement when he said bg asked him afterwards did he think there was anything wrong with the ride...now not accusing johnny of stars in his eyes or anything but it had to colour his opinion..
|
|
By:
It begs the question Kavvie ,why would a world class jockey ask a journalists opinion if he didn't feel it was too obvious. The biggest gravy train is about to have its mettle tested .
|
|
By:
Ya i say Barry asked johnny at tipperary back in october did he think there was anything wrong with the ride he gave thomas edison?
|
|
By:
Cracking thread tbf.
|