Irish Sports
Welcome to Live View – Take the tour to learn more
Start Tour
There is currently 1 person viewing this thread.
for those of you who don't read "de paper", the following is pat keane's thoughts on the noble emperor episode at limerick. at least one journalist is calling a spade a spade and the most salient points he makes are in his final two paragraphs.
"There is a perception in Irish racing that when the stewards spring into serious action you can be reasonably certain those on the receiving end will qualify as “little guys’’.
Well, the Limerick stewards last Sunday didn’t half turn that particular theory upside down, going after some of the biggest fish in the sea.
That they had the balls to lift their collective heads miles above the parapet has to be regarded as highly commendable, whether you agree or not with the severity of the punishments they applied.
Noble Emperor, in a handicap hurdle, was given a puzzling drive by Barry Geraghty and the stewards were left with absolutely no option but to take action.
The horse is owned by J P McManus, with Geraghty in his first season as his number one, after replacing Tony McCoy.
A 30-day suspension for Geraghty, 60 days for the horse and a €3,000 fine for Noble Emperor’s trainer, Tony Martin, was a fair First things first. The stewards just had to react to what had unfolded before them. Noble Emperor went off the 7-4 favourite to beat six rivals and at no stage of the race did his supporters have any cause for optimism.
old statement by those in the inner sanctum.
I have read and heard rubbish this week about the mildly ragged start to the race, but that had no bearing at all on what subsequently transpired.
The winner, Velocity Boy, went straight into the lead and by the time he was at the first flight, the favourite was already miles out of his ground.
Look at the contest as they headed to the third from home. Geraghty is still sitting motionless, almost as if he doesn’t realise that the race is entering its final stages.
We see a good shot of the horses leaving that third last behind and still there is no sense Geraghty is about to get down and dirty.I watched the head-on up the straight this week and, quite honestly, Geraghty could not be accused of throwing the kitchen sink at his mount, indeed he actually does very little.
In the end Noble Emperor did all of his best work in the closing stages and, at the line, was a never nearer 11 lengths second.
The stewards quickly went into conclave, handed down the penalties and the one that caught everyone’s imagination, of course, was the thirty days for Geraghty.
Then this week, out of the woodwork, came those scrambling to be on side, most of whom seeing little wrong with what occurred.
Well, at best, this raised real question marks. I have no idea what the true Noble Emperor story was, perhaps the most logical explanation is that this was simply an ill-judged ride on the part of Geraghty.
But the stewards clearly didn’t see it that way and they acted accordingly. Geraghty, in his evidence, said the horse needs to be covered up and delivered late.
But when Noble Emperor won an admittedly weak beginners chase at Fairyhouse in January of last year, he was up front throughout, eventually scoring by 22 lengths.
When he was second behind the useful Very Wood in a Grade 2 chase at Navan in February of last year, Noble Emperor made most of the running.
When Noble Emperor scored over flights at Punchestown at the end of December, Geraghty drove him into the lead heading to the last.
The stewards were right to act so decisively, anything less would surely have been regarded as a dereliction of duty.
The integrity of racing and ensuring that punters can wager with confidence is of paramount importance.
This week as well, we had to endure endless waffle that if Geraghty was guilty then so were the other jockeys for not chasing the all-the-way winner much earlier. Bullshit.
Watch the race closely and you will soon conclude that not one of the other five runners could have been an inch closer to Velocity Boy at the end.
Through the final half a mile or so all five of those jockeys were more animated than Geraghty. A good example, for instance, is the third horse home, Cliff House.
He tried hard to close down the leader early in the straight and was in front of Noble Emperor at this stage.
His rider, Brian O’Connell, was rowing away but, in testing conditions, Cliff House was running up and down on the one spot in a matter of strides.
By the time the winning post was reached, Cliff House was legless, beaten a total of 26 lengths and 15 lengths adrift of Noble Emperor.
In contrast to the other horses in the contest, with the exception of Velocity Boy, Noble Emperor came home relatively well.
If the stewards erred then it was probably that they went too far and, in particular, depriving Geraghty from making a living for so long did strike one as a trifle harsh.
We know that both Geraghty and Martin are set to appeal and history tells us the likelihood is that the sentences will be greatly reduced.
But, no matter what happens going forward, Irish racing owes the Limerick stewards a debt of gratitude.
It cannot have been easy for them having to arrive at such conclusions when some of the biggest juggernauts in racing were involved. They have put down a marker and that is no bad thing."
"There is a perception in Irish racing that when the stewards spring into serious action you can be reasonably certain those on the receiving end will qualify as “little guys’’.
Well, the Limerick stewards last Sunday didn’t half turn that particular theory upside down, going after some of the biggest fish in the sea.
That they had the balls to lift their collective heads miles above the parapet has to be regarded as highly commendable, whether you agree or not with the severity of the punishments they applied.
Noble Emperor, in a handicap hurdle, was given a puzzling drive by Barry Geraghty and the stewards were left with absolutely no option but to take action.
The horse is owned by J P McManus, with Geraghty in his first season as his number one, after replacing Tony McCoy.
A 30-day suspension for Geraghty, 60 days for the horse and a €3,000 fine for Noble Emperor’s trainer, Tony Martin, was a fair First things first. The stewards just had to react to what had unfolded before them. Noble Emperor went off the 7-4 favourite to beat six rivals and at no stage of the race did his supporters have any cause for optimism.
old statement by those in the inner sanctum.
I have read and heard rubbish this week about the mildly ragged start to the race, but that had no bearing at all on what subsequently transpired.
The winner, Velocity Boy, went straight into the lead and by the time he was at the first flight, the favourite was already miles out of his ground.
Look at the contest as they headed to the third from home. Geraghty is still sitting motionless, almost as if he doesn’t realise that the race is entering its final stages.
We see a good shot of the horses leaving that third last behind and still there is no sense Geraghty is about to get down and dirty.I watched the head-on up the straight this week and, quite honestly, Geraghty could not be accused of throwing the kitchen sink at his mount, indeed he actually does very little.
In the end Noble Emperor did all of his best work in the closing stages and, at the line, was a never nearer 11 lengths second.
The stewards quickly went into conclave, handed down the penalties and the one that caught everyone’s imagination, of course, was the thirty days for Geraghty.
Then this week, out of the woodwork, came those scrambling to be on side, most of whom seeing little wrong with what occurred.
Well, at best, this raised real question marks. I have no idea what the true Noble Emperor story was, perhaps the most logical explanation is that this was simply an ill-judged ride on the part of Geraghty.
But the stewards clearly didn’t see it that way and they acted accordingly. Geraghty, in his evidence, said the horse needs to be covered up and delivered late.
But when Noble Emperor won an admittedly weak beginners chase at Fairyhouse in January of last year, he was up front throughout, eventually scoring by 22 lengths.
When he was second behind the useful Very Wood in a Grade 2 chase at Navan in February of last year, Noble Emperor made most of the running.
When Noble Emperor scored over flights at Punchestown at the end of December, Geraghty drove him into the lead heading to the last.
The stewards were right to act so decisively, anything less would surely have been regarded as a dereliction of duty.
The integrity of racing and ensuring that punters can wager with confidence is of paramount importance.
This week as well, we had to endure endless waffle that if Geraghty was guilty then so were the other jockeys for not chasing the all-the-way winner much earlier. Bullshit.
Watch the race closely and you will soon conclude that not one of the other five runners could have been an inch closer to Velocity Boy at the end.
Through the final half a mile or so all five of those jockeys were more animated than Geraghty. A good example, for instance, is the third horse home, Cliff House.
He tried hard to close down the leader early in the straight and was in front of Noble Emperor at this stage.
His rider, Brian O’Connell, was rowing away but, in testing conditions, Cliff House was running up and down on the one spot in a matter of strides.
By the time the winning post was reached, Cliff House was legless, beaten a total of 26 lengths and 15 lengths adrift of Noble Emperor.
In contrast to the other horses in the contest, with the exception of Velocity Boy, Noble Emperor came home relatively well.
If the stewards erred then it was probably that they went too far and, in particular, depriving Geraghty from making a living for so long did strike one as a trifle harsh.
We know that both Geraghty and Martin are set to appeal and history tells us the likelihood is that the sentences will be greatly reduced.
But, no matter what happens going forward, Irish racing owes the Limerick stewards a debt of gratitude.
It cannot have been easy for them having to arrive at such conclusions when some of the biggest juggernauts in racing were involved. They have put down a marker and that is no bad thing."
Show More
Hopefully the stewards decision is upheld in full ...
I'm no apologist for JP, BG or Tony Martin but there's plenty in this article I disagree with. The gluey ground conditions in Limerick saw five really easy winners who handled the ground far better than the rest.Harry Fry's horse in the bumper tried to go with Without Limites and practically walked over the line as a result.
In Noble Emperor's race, which was after all a handicap where they should all have a chance, the winner absolutely bowled along out in front while none of the other six had come off the bridle 7 furlongs out. Three of these were behind NE.The first to be pushed, Mr Cosmopolitan, died a death straight away.Cliff House was next to give chase and died also. Pat Keane says "In the end Noble Emperor did all of his best work in the closing stages and, at the line,was a never nearer 11 lengths second". This is just not true yet it appears to be the justification for the 30 day ban. He was as close to the winner between the last 2 hurdles as he was at the line.He wasn't closing down the very easy winner,it was just that the horses behind him were all legless.
Sure, Geraghty could have made his move earlier as all the other jockeys could have, but it would have made no difference whatsoever to the result. The ban will be overturned.
In Noble Emperor's race, which was after all a handicap where they should all have a chance, the winner absolutely bowled along out in front while none of the other six had come off the bridle 7 furlongs out. Three of these were behind NE.The first to be pushed, Mr Cosmopolitan, died a death straight away.Cliff House was next to give chase and died also. Pat Keane says "In the end Noble Emperor did all of his best work in the closing stages and, at the line,was a never nearer 11 lengths second". This is just not true yet it appears to be the justification for the 30 day ban. He was as close to the winner between the last 2 hurdles as he was at the line.He wasn't closing down the very easy winner,it was just that the horses behind him were all legless.
Sure, Geraghty could have made his move earlier as all the other jockeys could have, but it would have made no difference whatsoever to the result. The ban will be overturned.
i expect the ban will be shorter..but over turned? geraghty made no attempt to put the horse in the race? i hope the ban stands and its a shot accross the bows of irish trainers owners etc..we all know what goes on, but its epidemic in some cases..with this case and the notorious jim best, at least something has been done...
Yes it may not be overturned completely but I'd say 4/5 days max is all it deserves. But Tony, why single out Geraghty when none of the jockeys made an attempt, for half the race, to put their horse in the race?
tonys right..the other jockeys all tried at various times during the race but had no horse under them..
If these penalties are overturned the last man out should turn off the light.
As said already on other threads on the forum concerning this subject i,d agree with Pat. The start was immaterial and the rest of the other runners finished tired.
One of these ones where i'd actually like the original penalty to be raised.
I think unfortunately it will be cut for the reason it would taint Geraghty's career to a large extent if it stands.Overall it would be a travesty but there is no excuse for that ride.
One of these ones where i'd actually like the original penalty to be raised.
I think unfortunately it will be cut for the reason it would taint Geraghty's career to a large extent if it stands.Overall it would be a travesty but there is no excuse for that ride.
Totally agree that the start was irrelevant and the others finished tired, or had no horse under them when asked for an effort. So what does that tell us?-that the pace they went off was the correct one, had they gone any quicker early on they wouldn't be home yet.Noble Emperor didn't quicken or close on the winner when BG (eventually) asked him, he just stayed on at the same pace whereas the others died. If Geraghty rode that race 20 times in 20 different ways he wouldn't have beaten Velocity Boy. The winner won with the proverbial ton in hand.I see worse rides every day of the week. Now I don't deny that JP and TM are no angels, but the 30 day ban for BG in this specific case is,in my opinion, ridiculous.
NOBLE EMPEROR TO RELISH THE FORECAST UNDERFOOT CONDITIONS IN LIMERICK HANDICAP HURDLE
At Limerick on Sunday, I am on NOBLE EMPEROR (2.25) in the two-mile Book Online At www.limerickraces.ie Handicap Hurdle.
He has top weight, but he stayed on well at Gowran Park four weeks ago to finish a close second behind Toon River.
He is 4lb lower over hurdles than he is over fences, and he put up a nice performance to win a two-and-a-half-mile hurdle at Punchestown on New Year’s Eve.
This will be just his fourth run over hurdles, and he should appreciate the soft ground, with plenty of rain forecast.
This is what he said in his blog that weekend
At Limerick on Sunday, I am on NOBLE EMPEROR (2.25) in the two-mile Book Online At www.limerickraces.ie Handicap Hurdle.
He has top weight, but he stayed on well at Gowran Park four weeks ago to finish a close second behind Toon River.
He is 4lb lower over hurdles than he is over fences, and he put up a nice performance to win a two-and-a-half-mile hurdle at Punchestown on New Year’s Eve.
This will be just his fourth run over hurdles, and he should appreciate the soft ground, with plenty of rain forecast.
This is what he said in his blog that weekend
The pace of the race should have suited noble emperor seeing he stands further.The Handicaper did not think Velocity Boy had a ton in hand he put him up 6lbs only and noble emperor a 1lb.
First Time Visor , you should read Simon Rowlands in the Irish Field last week doing his sectional timing analysis on the race - ''Leader Velocity Boy got to the second flight ( after more than half a mile ) a couple of lengths slower than the leaders in the preceding ordinary maiden hurdle ( which had been run at a true not breakneck pace) with Noble Emperor and the rest 20 lengths or so adrift of him .. It should be no great surprise that Velocity Boy failed to come back in such circumstances... '' .
On this comparative analysis you have to wonder could Geraghty and his other experienced colleagues be guilty of such gross incompetence in letting the leader loose off a far from tearaway pace or is there a more sinister inference to be drawn ?
On this comparative analysis you have to wonder could Geraghty and his other experienced colleagues be guilty of such gross incompetence in letting the leader loose off a far from tearaway pace or is there a more sinister inference to be drawn ?
That would confirm what I said earlier that Velocity Boy had set off in a controlled manner and was not out of control. Considering what has since transpired it could be said that the start could be viewed in a different light also. However that may be very unfair but it confirms how ridiculous the starts are in Ireland and perhaps everything has become lax and needs quite a bit of tightening up. Perhaps that day in Limerick may signal a new beginning but I wouldnt hold my breath.
Stellar, only a few counted in that maiden hurdle and they went off too fast. Only the fav(winner) got home. Ruby came from way back on a slow one to nab second.
Velocity Boy is fast and a good horse on his day. He led Douvan and Sizing John over the second last in the Punchestown grade 1 last year so he has a lot more speed than Noble Emperor.
Yes, you are right, it was no surprise he failed to come back.He was clearly on a going day. Lots of money for him too. And yes it wasn't just Geraghty, but his experienced colleagues as well, who gave him a solo. But was there really much they could do about it? How many of these 6 handicappers have the speed to lead Douvan and Sizing John to two out at grade 1 level at level weights? From early on it was obvious,and reasonable enough to expect it would happen, that their only chance was if Velocity Boy hit a wall but he galloped to the line full of running.
There may be something more to it.I don't know but possibly something may come to light at the appeal. But unless this is so I can see the stewards getting destroyed next week.
Velocity Boy is fast and a good horse on his day. He led Douvan and Sizing John over the second last in the Punchestown grade 1 last year so he has a lot more speed than Noble Emperor.
Yes, you are right, it was no surprise he failed to come back.He was clearly on a going day. Lots of money for him too. And yes it wasn't just Geraghty, but his experienced colleagues as well, who gave him a solo. But was there really much they could do about it? How many of these 6 handicappers have the speed to lead Douvan and Sizing John to two out at grade 1 level at level weights? From early on it was obvious,and reasonable enough to expect it would happen, that their only chance was if Velocity Boy hit a wall but he galloped to the line full of running.
There may be something more to it.I don't know but possibly something may come to light at the appeal. But unless this is so I can see the stewards getting destroyed next week.
FTV , we are talking about Velocity Boy here ( a handicapper rated 9lbs inferior pre race to Noble Emperor , it was a handicap after all ) not Limestone Lad flying off in front of hopelessly overmatched animals in a conditions race. How can you say they went off too fast in the maiden hurdle when 5 lengths covered the field of 11 jumping the first hurdle and yet the finishing time was 4.8 secs slower than the Velocity Boy handicap ?
Well if they got to the second hurdle a few lengths faster and finished 4.8 seconds slower then its a fair bet they went off too fast
Velocity Boy can run free but settled well enough this time. I would say hes better than his mark. Not the most consistent but when he settles and gets those glue pot conditions he has the pace to get away and stay galloping.True hes just a handicapper but a well handicapped one
Velocity Boy can run free but settled well enough this time. I would say hes better than his mark. Not the most consistent but when he settles and gets those glue pot conditions he has the pace to get away and stay galloping.True hes just a handicapper but a well handicapped one
Velocity Boy went much faster after passing the stands first time than the maiden hurdle not surprisingly given the disparity in class between him and the maiden hurdle horses and this accounts for the difference in overall time between the two races. The key thing is that he had already had a huge lead gifted to him before he really stepped on the gas during this period of the race - the key part of the race was over namely the early part of it and the outcome was inevitable from that point . As an earlier poster has mentioned , the handicapper is not exactly quaking in his boots about Velocity Boy being well handicapped - only raised 6lbs for a wide margin with a pound for Noble Emperor.
On 13 March , Velocity Boy ran in the 2.50 at Navan . He was last for most of the race , settled there , made up ground from the 3rd last ( where he was still last) , and finished second . 6/1 chance .
On 27 march , Velocity Boy ran in Cork , held up towards rear ( jockey settled him there , pulling and throwing his head about ) , progress into 5th 3 out , ridden before 2 out , no impression last , kept on same pace run in . 5/1 .
So on 3 April he comes out at Limerick , and instead of being settled in rear as in 2 most recent appearances , he comes out of the collecting area in front , is allowed a 3 lengths start by the starter ( or the other jockeys) , steals another 6 lengths or more before the first hurdle , maintains a decent gallop from there on winning comfortably .
Different tactics ?
Noble Emperor spent most of previous season over fences , on 5 March he ran second in a handicap chase where he was held up , finishing second . I had no interest in the race at Limerick , but had I , I would not have been taking the view that Noble Emperor was a good thing , and certainly would not have been backing him . Apart from anything else it was a long time since he had run over hurdles .
Having watched the race several times I would conclude that Velocity Boy ran far better than his 2 previous outings indicated , allied to different tactics ( which had worked in the past but had been set aside for whatever reason in his runs on 13 and 27 March where he was restrained in last place for most of those 2 races ).
Noble Emperor ran to his mark in relation to the other horses in the race , beating them comfortably as it happened, but Velocity Boy had stolen the race by the time Noble Emperor and the others attempted to catch him . If Geraghty was guilty of allowing Velocity Boy to set up a winning lead , so were the other jockeys . Noble Emperor was never out of his ground in relation to the other 5 horses in the race , all of them finished well behind him .
Noble Emperor is no world beater , but had Velocity Boy not been in the race we would have been saying Geraghty had ridden a comfortable winner .
The imponderable is any information the stewards had which we the general public are unaware of . Plus the fact that Geraghty was not the only guilty party as defined by the stewards , trainer was fined heavily , and horse banned for a period . If Geraghty was under instructions to hold the horse up , he did just that , but if in dong that he sacrificed any chance of winning the race , so did the other jockeys who finished behind him . Every race is different , tactics play a large part in a lot of races where relatively average horses are involved . Velocity Boy ran considerably better on 3 April than he did on 13 and 27 March races .
Backers of Noble Emperor are entitled to the view that Geraghty was not vigorous enough on Noble Emperor when it was obvious that Velocity Boy had set up a long lead and was maintaining it with only 3 hurdles to be jumped , Noble Emperor is no Istabraq and having been jumping fences for his previous six or seven ( or more ) runs , he was never going to ping the last 3 and make up 2 lengths at each .
In my view , Geraghty and the other jockeys in the race should have been called in , questioned as to the efforts shown by each jockey and horse , and if anything surfaced from those interviews the connections of the winner might have had to answer questions re improvement in form .
Unless the stewards ( more likely stipe) had more information than us normal race watchers, the 30 day ban seems excessive . If there was any question of actually not wanting the horse to win , it was a hurdle race , and if Velocity Boy had fallen Noble Emperor would have been a comfortable winner . If you are trying to ensure that a horse gets beaten , you dont take that chance .
On 27 march , Velocity Boy ran in Cork , held up towards rear ( jockey settled him there , pulling and throwing his head about ) , progress into 5th 3 out , ridden before 2 out , no impression last , kept on same pace run in . 5/1 .
So on 3 April he comes out at Limerick , and instead of being settled in rear as in 2 most recent appearances , he comes out of the collecting area in front , is allowed a 3 lengths start by the starter ( or the other jockeys) , steals another 6 lengths or more before the first hurdle , maintains a decent gallop from there on winning comfortably .
Different tactics ?
Noble Emperor spent most of previous season over fences , on 5 March he ran second in a handicap chase where he was held up , finishing second . I had no interest in the race at Limerick , but had I , I would not have been taking the view that Noble Emperor was a good thing , and certainly would not have been backing him . Apart from anything else it was a long time since he had run over hurdles .
Having watched the race several times I would conclude that Velocity Boy ran far better than his 2 previous outings indicated , allied to different tactics ( which had worked in the past but had been set aside for whatever reason in his runs on 13 and 27 March where he was restrained in last place for most of those 2 races ).
Noble Emperor ran to his mark in relation to the other horses in the race , beating them comfortably as it happened, but Velocity Boy had stolen the race by the time Noble Emperor and the others attempted to catch him . If Geraghty was guilty of allowing Velocity Boy to set up a winning lead , so were the other jockeys . Noble Emperor was never out of his ground in relation to the other 5 horses in the race , all of them finished well behind him .
Noble Emperor is no world beater , but had Velocity Boy not been in the race we would have been saying Geraghty had ridden a comfortable winner .
The imponderable is any information the stewards had which we the general public are unaware of . Plus the fact that Geraghty was not the only guilty party as defined by the stewards , trainer was fined heavily , and horse banned for a period . If Geraghty was under instructions to hold the horse up , he did just that , but if in dong that he sacrificed any chance of winning the race , so did the other jockeys who finished behind him . Every race is different , tactics play a large part in a lot of races where relatively average horses are involved . Velocity Boy ran considerably better on 3 April than he did on 13 and 27 March races .
Backers of Noble Emperor are entitled to the view that Geraghty was not vigorous enough on Noble Emperor when it was obvious that Velocity Boy had set up a long lead and was maintaining it with only 3 hurdles to be jumped , Noble Emperor is no Istabraq and having been jumping fences for his previous six or seven ( or more ) runs , he was never going to ping the last 3 and make up 2 lengths at each .
In my view , Geraghty and the other jockeys in the race should have been called in , questioned as to the efforts shown by each jockey and horse , and if anything surfaced from those interviews the connections of the winner might have had to answer questions re improvement in form .
Unless the stewards ( more likely stipe) had more information than us normal race watchers, the 30 day ban seems excessive . If there was any question of actually not wanting the horse to win , it was a hurdle race , and if Velocity Boy had fallen Noble Emperor would have been a comfortable winner . If you are trying to ensure that a horse gets beaten , you dont take that chance .
Noble Emperor won over hundles on 31 of december 2015.Not so long a go.
See that Velocity Boy's next engagement is the Punchestown Champion H'dle (Grade 1) on Friday 29th...must be a gud un !
Velocity Boy had been settling a little better in his two previous races when held up and running well and this time settled well enough in front and saw his race out well. I think that was the key to the improved performance.
Noble Emperor is more of a stayer and did stay on.
Take the winner out and Noble Emperor would have won 15 lengths. The handicapper took the view that NE gave an improved performance from his previous mark( up one pound) over a trip short of his best which should give the defence team plenty to argue about at the appeal.
Noble Emperor is more of a stayer and did stay on.
Take the winner out and Noble Emperor would have won 15 lengths. The handicapper took the view that NE gave an improved performance from his previous mark( up one pound) over a trip short of his best which should give the defence team plenty to argue about at the appeal.
The jockey in Downpatrick in the Betfair laying case got a 3 or 4 years ban for not trying on a horse that was laid for a place for big amounts by the owners/connections thereof. In Asian jurisdictions you will get 6/12 months ban for not getting your best finishing position even though you didnt stop it from winning and when you time your challenge too late in suspicious fashion and fail to get up you get a two year ban as the former champion jockey in Singapore did a couple of years ago. In that context , is a 30 day ban really excessive even if it is above the Irish norm ? Pat Keane has exposed the nonsense about the hold up tactics being necessary for this horse based on his profile in the past and as for the Nuremberg defence of Barry Geraghty and not wanting to depart from his riding instructions , a seven pound claimer could make some plausible argument to that effect but not a top class experienced pilot - it would not surprise me if the Stewards felt their intelligence was being insulted by that and put the boot in accordingly.
We all look at things a bit differently Firsttime which is a good thing and a lot of it is only conjecture as the jockey is probably the only one that really knows how much horse is left.
Imo the crux of the matter is why didn't he try to close until the 2nd last?
The "sinister" answer there is he was afraid VB would fall in a hole.
The "innocent" answer is he thought he would.
Again i'm with Pat,surely he should have tried to close sooner and why didn't he try to?
Pat also shows the "have to be held up" isn't necessary true.
Imo the crux of the matter is why didn't he try to close until the 2nd last?
The "sinister" answer there is he was afraid VB would fall in a hole.
The "innocent" answer is he thought he would.
Again i'm with Pat,surely he should have tried to close sooner and why didn't he try to?
Pat also shows the "have to be held up" isn't necessary true.
Missed that one cloone river , Punchestown . Maiden hurdle , 11/8 fav. Must look it up to see if he beat anything .
Pa, every day of the week horses go off too fast and the other jockeys have to make a judgement call. Mostly, the best jockeys call it right.If VB had fallen in a hole 2 furlongs out, as all bar one of his pursuers did even though ridden more conservatively, nobody would have batted an eye and the assumed wisdom would have been that Barry Cash gave the well fancied 2-1 shot a brain dead ride and the other jockeys were right to ignore him.
Its a thin line. Cash got it right. The horse hosed up. BG was'nt just riding to beat VB. He had 5 others in a tight handicap to worry about too.
The fact that all 6 behind were still travelling on the bridal past halfway, 3 of them sitting behind NE, when the race was already VB's to lose, shows that ALL the jockeys, not just BG, misjudged it.This is my point. How can BG be singled out? We know that when BG did ask for an effort he didn't quicken or narrow the gap, it was just that the horses behind became further detached.Had he ridden a finish a furlong earlier he may or may not have got a length or 2 closer but it would have made no difference whatsoever to the result but the optics may have been better. Imo no matter how NE was ridden he could not have beaten VB on the day.
Hindsight is wonderful. Everybody has an opinion(myself included) after a race as to how it should have been ridden but the jockeys have to make spur of the moment decisions and judgement calls and its inevitable that some they can make mistakes for no sinister reasons.
Its a thin line. Cash got it right. The horse hosed up. BG was'nt just riding to beat VB. He had 5 others in a tight handicap to worry about too.
The fact that all 6 behind were still travelling on the bridal past halfway, 3 of them sitting behind NE, when the race was already VB's to lose, shows that ALL the jockeys, not just BG, misjudged it.This is my point. How can BG be singled out? We know that when BG did ask for an effort he didn't quicken or narrow the gap, it was just that the horses behind became further detached.Had he ridden a finish a furlong earlier he may or may not have got a length or 2 closer but it would have made no difference whatsoever to the result but the optics may have been better. Imo no matter how NE was ridden he could not have beaten VB on the day.
Hindsight is wonderful. Everybody has an opinion(myself included) after a race as to how it should have been ridden but the jockeys have to make spur of the moment decisions and judgement calls and its inevitable that some they can make mistakes for no sinister reasons.
FTV, we are after all talking about one of our top jockeys ,who has ridden the winner of every major race worth winning.A trainer who has trained winners at the highest level , a owner who leaves nothing to chance , now put those 3 together and what do you come up with ,a team at the top ,there has been mumerings around the same team practically every week on here . are you saying they didn't do their homework on the race ,would they not have looked into All possibilites and come to a conclusion . What amazes me is , the fact that NE was said to need futher , is given a strongish pace to help him ,yet is held so far back that when they do decide to go after the winner he finds little ,strange or what...
He was singled out because he appeared to have a lot of horse left FTV,the others were dead,point that did they ride poorly in giving the winner too much rope is fair enough but it comes back to Noble Emperor not looking as if it had a race til 2f out.
Agree that Velocity Boy would have won on the day very probably,very fancied, also being backed from 4/1 to 2/1.
I'd love to apologise for the jockey and usually do but for someone of Barry's calibre to ride like that and the colours and stable to boot.Do i think the horse ran on its merits? I don't,that day wasn't the day.
Agree that Velocity Boy would have won on the day very probably,very fancied, also being backed from 4/1 to 2/1.
I'd love to apologise for the jockey and usually do but for someone of Barry's calibre to ride like that and the colours and stable to boot.Do i think the horse ran on its merits? I don't,that day wasn't the day.
Workrider, I'm not defending the team in general. I'm talking about this specific case strictly on its merits. If it was any other owner, trainer or jockey I would still have the same opinion. VB tore the race apart. NE doesn't have the pace to live with him over 2 miles.
Pa, the damage was done before half way. Every jockey behind sat still. None of them knew when on the bridle what they would find off it so either all guilty or none guilty.
Pa, the damage was done before half way. Every jockey behind sat still. None of them knew when on the bridle what they would find off it so either all guilty or none guilty.
Its simple. Most people know it stinks to high heavens just like plenty of other instances
... Anyone who says otherwise is deluded or has some sort of vested interest.Surely the starter also has questions to answer. Either he is incompetent or something worse. The winner was backed from about 4/1 and I cant remember but certainly NE's price did not contract. Was there more to this than a horse getting a soft lead. Smelly smelly.
Arkle, I'm saying otherwise and I have no vested interest or had no bet in the race. There's plenty saying otherwise who had no vested interest either and who are not deluded. I have no problem at all with you having an opinion but I just don't share it.
Firsttimevisor makes a good point about all the hold up jockeys not knowing for sure they would find nothing when push came to shove.Some of them had ground/ long absence from the track issues to engender pessimism at the start but does that justify why they refused to line up at the start and crawled to the first flight behind a horse who was not going half as fast as he appeared to be visually ? The race was over at the first hurdle not at half way which does raise an integrity issue.
The King had no clothes on and the Stewards stood up and said so on the day,sad state of affairs that we have to applaud them for doing so as it's been going on for eons (We all know it).....
Stellar I agree with you that the race was over very early. The question I would ask was it over even before the start. Firstime wasnt aiming my thoughts at you and apologies if it came across that way. My problem overall is that at most Irish meetings there are a number of non-triers and its going on for years and nothing is being done about it. Today is not the day and all the other cute hoor stuff that goes on only turns off the casual racegoer who is loathe to return to get his pockets picked again.
there are so many vested intrests at work in irish racing.journalists etc in with this one and that one..the comments here reflect a better judgement of it and what went on i think...like johnny ward(who i like) had a completely different read of it than pat keane(i also like).johnny made a very telling statement when he said bg asked him afterwards did he think there was anything wrong with the ride...now not accusing johnny of stars in his eyes or anything but it had to colour his opinion..
It begs the question Kavvie ,why would a world class jockey ask a journalists opinion if he didn't feel it was too obvious. The biggest gravy train is about to have its mettle tested .
Ya i say Barry asked johnny at tipperary back in october did he think there was anything wrong with the ride he gave thomas edison?
I expect the outcome of the appeal, will be a reduction to 5 days for Geraghty as an injudicious ride and Harvey will be have his fine lifted.
yes, it may be a shot across the bows, though the last 2 or 3 involving the green and gold also escaped, the 2 at Fairyhouse, and the Harrington one at Tipp last summer.
on the issue of policing: the percentage of prosecutions of non triers to actual races is miniscule. we all see on a daily basis in Ireland at least 2 or 3 blatant non triers, frequently evident inside the first 200 yards. if the police(stewards and in particular the professional stipes) are not prepared to act, then we might as well dispense with them altogether. It seems that they can readily be bracketed as reactive instead of being pro active.
some time ago, an individual was recruited(from ppowers as it happens) to police the exchanges and general market movement...apart from that Lambe case at Downpatrick, the lack of prosecutions would lead one to believe the sport was squeakly clean. The individual in the portfolio may have his hands tied from above, so it may be unfair to blame him. The fact that I have seen him acting as a stipe at point to points when racing was also taking place on the track at the same time in Ireland, indicates, it is not a high priority for the turf club, more like, a position for positive imagery rather than positive action.
the general punting public, as distinct from those behoven to the green/gold within the industry, are sick and tired of the antics with their horses. the public are at best second guessing all the time...compare and contrast with Giggs whose horses are fairly campaigned.
If you want the classic comparison between green/gold and giggs......prince of scars and gladiator king dead heated at Leopardstown in a maiden hurdle in January 2015. Study how they have been campaigned in the interim.
one closing point which may knit together certain pieces of the original puzzle.
In the not too distant past, a successful trainer, and a committee member of the trainers association, dropped into me for a chat one night. Various topics were discussed, the 2 items that he was very confident in talking about were (1) certain trainers were getting "the non detectable gear" from Canada, (2) Sunday was the main day for stopping/laying(for exchange purposes) in Ireland.
item (1) is not "in play" in this Limerick case. Regarding item(2), I suspect if the trainers know what is happening on the sundays, the officials must too, hence eventually someone was going to be fingered. the stipes may have had the gun loaded for some time, unless they are armed with extra information, from the outside looking in, they may have pulled the trigger on the wrong race.
yes, it may be a shot across the bows, though the last 2 or 3 involving the green and gold also escaped, the 2 at Fairyhouse, and the Harrington one at Tipp last summer.
on the issue of policing: the percentage of prosecutions of non triers to actual races is miniscule. we all see on a daily basis in Ireland at least 2 or 3 blatant non triers, frequently evident inside the first 200 yards. if the police(stewards and in particular the professional stipes) are not prepared to act, then we might as well dispense with them altogether. It seems that they can readily be bracketed as reactive instead of being pro active.
some time ago, an individual was recruited(from ppowers as it happens) to police the exchanges and general market movement...apart from that Lambe case at Downpatrick, the lack of prosecutions would lead one to believe the sport was squeakly clean. The individual in the portfolio may have his hands tied from above, so it may be unfair to blame him. The fact that I have seen him acting as a stipe at point to points when racing was also taking place on the track at the same time in Ireland, indicates, it is not a high priority for the turf club, more like, a position for positive imagery rather than positive action.
the general punting public, as distinct from those behoven to the green/gold within the industry, are sick and tired of the antics with their horses. the public are at best second guessing all the time...compare and contrast with Giggs whose horses are fairly campaigned.
If you want the classic comparison between green/gold and giggs......prince of scars and gladiator king dead heated at Leopardstown in a maiden hurdle in January 2015. Study how they have been campaigned in the interim.
one closing point which may knit together certain pieces of the original puzzle.
In the not too distant past, a successful trainer, and a committee member of the trainers association, dropped into me for a chat one night. Various topics were discussed, the 2 items that he was very confident in talking about were (1) certain trainers were getting "the non detectable gear" from Canada, (2) Sunday was the main day for stopping/laying(for exchange purposes) in Ireland.
item (1) is not "in play" in this Limerick case. Regarding item(2), I suspect if the trainers know what is happening on the sundays, the officials must too, hence eventually someone was going to be fingered. the stipes may have had the gun loaded for some time, unless they are armed with extra information, from the outside looking in, they may have pulled the trigger on the wrong race.
Irish field website , 15 minutes ago .
Cant say I am surprised , but there is always a doubt in cases like this .
Cant say I am surprised , but there is always a doubt in cases like this .
You wonder why they bother hiring barristers in these appeals.
Be much cheaper to overturn the original decision immediately on rumour of possible appeal imo.
No creditability anymore.
Be much cheaper to overturn the original decision immediately on rumour of possible appeal imo.
No creditability anymore.
Afraid its the stipes who lack credibility . This whole episode has been bordering on farce . Most observers on here were of the opinion that the ban was near to ridiculous based on what we the general public saw happening . So how can so called experts get it so wrong ( and not for the first time in recent memory) .
Looking back through the posts , reckon one (or more) of mine has gone missing . How can you check if a post of yours has been removed ?
Sunday was the main day for stopping/laying(for exchange purposes) in Ireland and I suspect if the trainers know what is happening on the sundays, the officials must too, hence eventually someone was going to be fingered. The stipes may have had the gun loaded for some time.....they may have pulled the trigger on the wrong race.
BJG has successfully appealed with Justice Tony Hunt clearing the jockey of his suspension - RP.
BJG has successfully appealed with Justice Tony Hunt clearing the jockey of his suspension - RP.
Barry Geraghty is free to ride at next week’s Punchestown Festival having had his 30-day ban overturned on appeal at the Turf Club on Monday evening.
Geraghty received the ban for his ride aboard Noble Emperor at Limerick on April 3rd. The 7/4 favourite finished fast to take second place in the handicap hurdle won by the front-running Velocity Boy. The stewards said Geraghty had failed to take all reasonable and permissible measures to obtain the best possible placing. They also fined the trainer Tony Martin, who expressed his satisfaction with the ride, €3,000 and punished owner J.P. McManus by suspending the horse for 60 days.
However, after a three-hour hearing the Appeals Panel overturned that decision and all parties were completely cleared of any wrongdoing.
Delivering the verdict, Judge Tony Hunt said: “It was an unsatisfactory race, mainly down to the very enterprising ride of Barry Cash. Our view is that the opportunity for Noble Emperor to finish first was gone from very early in the race. Second was the best placing he could achieve.
Geraghty received the ban for his ride aboard Noble Emperor at Limerick on April 3rd. The 7/4 favourite finished fast to take second place in the handicap hurdle won by the front-running Velocity Boy. The stewards said Geraghty had failed to take all reasonable and permissible measures to obtain the best possible placing. They also fined the trainer Tony Martin, who expressed his satisfaction with the ride, €3,000 and punished owner J.P. McManus by suspending the horse for 60 days.
However, after a three-hour hearing the Appeals Panel overturned that decision and all parties were completely cleared of any wrongdoing.
Delivering the verdict, Judge Tony Hunt said: “It was an unsatisfactory race, mainly down to the very enterprising ride of Barry Cash. Our view is that the opportunity for Noble Emperor to finish first was gone from very early in the race. Second was the best placing he could achieve.
“In hindsight different tactics could have been adopted and it may have been wise to be seen to make more of an effort.”
Accepting Geraghty’s evidence that “Plan A was to get cover and be close to the pace”, Judge Hunt said: “There is no evidence that the result would have been any different given the way Velocity Boy finished.”
Accepting Geraghty’s evidence that “Plan A was to get cover and be close to the pace”, Judge Hunt said: “There is no evidence that the result would have been any different given the way Velocity Boy finished.”
So its all Barry Cash,s fault !
I didnt see that one coming.
I didnt see that one coming.
It has been said that Frank Berry gives the instructions to the riders before a race. I dont know if that is the true but if swo does anyone know if Frank was questioned on what instructions he gave and whether he was satisfied with how they were carried out.
From the Racing Post...the full quote is
"In our view, there was no opportunity for Noble Emperor to win the race at any relevant time," Judge Tony Hunt told the floor his verdict.
"This race must be looked at as an individual race. It turned out to be an unsatisfactory race with enterprising tactics used by the winning jockey. In our view, the opportunity to finish first was gone very early in the race. Second was the best possible position he could achieved given the way the race panned out."
I am struck by the comment....this race must looked at as an individual race. Shot across the bows?
"In our view, there was no opportunity for Noble Emperor to win the race at any relevant time," Judge Tony Hunt told the floor his verdict.
"This race must be looked at as an individual race. It turned out to be an unsatisfactory race with enterprising tactics used by the winning jockey. In our view, the opportunity to finish first was gone very early in the race. Second was the best possible position he could achieved given the way the race panned out."
I am struck by the comment....this race must looked at as an individual race. Shot across the bows?
"In our view, the opportunity to finish first was gone very early in the race. Second was the best possible position he could achieved given the way the race panned out."
This coming from the hearing panel - The Nadir in Irish Racing . God bless them.
This coming from the hearing panel - The Nadir in Irish Racing . God bless them.
I'm gutted for Irish racing , we'll never have a better chance of putting things right . They now have us over a barrell and can do as they please .Punters are now at their mercy, come racing and watch as THEY decide if you'll get a fair crack of the whip.
R.I.P.
R.I.P.
For all the posts that appear on here regarding the administration and perceived performance of individual horses , stables , jockeys etc , the figures dont back up a fraction of the claims made . Fact .
So I reckon that a lot of the claims re non triers etc are just hot air and / or pocket talk . Horses are not machines , and 90% of horses ( at least) are average , just like human beings ). Mistakes happen , all trainers are not equal , all jockeys are not equal , all owners are not equal .
We punters / lovers of the horse game should occasionally take a look at ourselves , we ( mostly) pay nothing into the sport unless we attend a meeting , except for any revenue which accrues to the sport via levy or betting or TV use . The bulk of the money spent on the horse racing industry comes from owners , who fork out thousands per year for training and other expenditure on ofttimes very average horses .
In the old days owners kept their information to themselves ( as they are entitled to ) . The concept that they should share information with us public comes from I dont know where . Same applies to jockeys , who used to be locked up overnight in certain stables when there was a winner in the pipeline . Transparency is a desirable model , but at the end of the day surely the connections are entitled to some privacy and advantage , they are paying the bills . Afraid the all intrusive media play a part in most sports nowadays . I am all for fairness , justice though has to be seen to happen , and as court proceedings , often involving renowned governments and companies shows , proving wrong doing is extremely difficult . Easy to make allegations , difficult to prove , blame the legal eagles who can defend the indefensible betimes , based on the claim for a "fair trial" .
Reckon the stewards just backed a loser this time , and they have not got a great record . One wonders if the horse racing industry is pouring water down the drain in this respect .
So I reckon that a lot of the claims re non triers etc are just hot air and / or pocket talk . Horses are not machines , and 90% of horses ( at least) are average , just like human beings ). Mistakes happen , all trainers are not equal , all jockeys are not equal , all owners are not equal .
We punters / lovers of the horse game should occasionally take a look at ourselves , we ( mostly) pay nothing into the sport unless we attend a meeting , except for any revenue which accrues to the sport via levy or betting or TV use . The bulk of the money spent on the horse racing industry comes from owners , who fork out thousands per year for training and other expenditure on ofttimes very average horses .
In the old days owners kept their information to themselves ( as they are entitled to ) . The concept that they should share information with us public comes from I dont know where . Same applies to jockeys , who used to be locked up overnight in certain stables when there was a winner in the pipeline . Transparency is a desirable model , but at the end of the day surely the connections are entitled to some privacy and advantage , they are paying the bills . Afraid the all intrusive media play a part in most sports nowadays . I am all for fairness , justice though has to be seen to happen , and as court proceedings , often involving renowned governments and companies shows , proving wrong doing is extremely difficult . Easy to make allegations , difficult to prove , blame the legal eagles who can defend the indefensible betimes , based on the claim for a "fair trial" .
Reckon the stewards just backed a loser this time , and they have not got a great record . One wonders if the horse racing industry is pouring water down the drain in this respect .
Kelly we are not talking here about sharing information. You say "the figures dont back up a fraction of the claims made" - where/what are these figures. When you say that there are very few non-triers in the sport youre either fishing or have lost it.
arklearkle,
a touch harsh on kelly? but you are right, its plain to anyone who goes racing in ireland or in the uk that the owners in question in this case are above the law in most cases were stewarding is concernd, i say again to the stewards on the day welldone for trying to bring it to the attention of the sport..30 days was never going to stand imo..but to now have the jockey and owners walk away ..its a kick in the stomach for all who love the game..
a touch harsh on kelly? but you are right, its plain to anyone who goes racing in ireland or in the uk that the owners in question in this case are above the law in most cases were stewarding is concernd, i say again to the stewards on the day welldone for trying to bring it to the attention of the sport..30 days was never going to stand imo..but to now have the jockey and owners walk away ..its a kick in the stomach for all who love the game..
How many times have we all heard such-and-such is "not off today" or apparently the more modern version is "today is not today".
Apart from the aftertiming i must say i quite like Kelly's contributions. Hes interesting and he knows plenty about the game , particularly in days gone by.
Hes 100 % spot on when he says that the owners are entitled to know more than joe public, i agree wholeheartedly. The notion that buying the racing post is going to put you on a level playing field with someone who has bought the animal and is paying the bills is a crock of shiite. The green and gold only do what anyone else would do given the opportunity, they put alot of money in to the game and they want to win when it suits.
If people dont like that then its tough shiite, dont get involved in certain races, or maybe go and bet on sports where you cannot possibly win.
Hes 100 % spot on when he says that the owners are entitled to know more than joe public, i agree wholeheartedly. The notion that buying the racing post is going to put you on a level playing field with someone who has bought the animal and is paying the bills is a crock of shiite. The green and gold only do what anyone else would do given the opportunity, they put alot of money in to the game and they want to win when it suits.
If people dont like that then its tough shiite, dont get involved in certain races, or maybe go and bet on sports where you cannot possibly win.
Mincer I have no problem with owners having the information whatsoever but prizemoney is subsidised by the taxpayer and besides conspiracy to defraud is a crime.
The figures show extremely few transgressions ( proven and not appealed or overturned ) . EVERY day somewhere on Betfair forums someone somewhere posts up about non triers , hand brake still on , not wanted etc . Not quite every race , but a substantial number of times per day . Pocket talk , I suspect .
If there had been no hulabaloo about the race in Limerick , I suspect that quite a few punters would have been mentioning non triers in the race , or commenting on the start where to my mind there was little attempt to ensure a level start . If nothing else the enquiry / verdict proves that it is possible to steal a race , even one which you could have won in normal running conditions.
Have been around the racing scene for a long time , know that not all horses are fit to run for their lives until everything suits . I know if I was an owner and wanting to back my horse , I would leave no stone unturned in an effort to win my bet . Trick as a punter is to decipher all the information , AND market moves , particularly at the death , in search of the winner . Then hopefully its down to normal luck .
If there had been no hulabaloo about the race in Limerick , I suspect that quite a few punters would have been mentioning non triers in the race , or commenting on the start where to my mind there was little attempt to ensure a level start . If nothing else the enquiry / verdict proves that it is possible to steal a race , even one which you could have won in normal running conditions.
Have been around the racing scene for a long time , know that not all horses are fit to run for their lives until everything suits . I know if I was an owner and wanting to back my horse , I would leave no stone unturned in an effort to win my bet . Trick as a punter is to decipher all the information , AND market moves , particularly at the death , in search of the winner . Then hopefully its down to normal luck .
Arklearkle, the taxpayer is subsidising plenty that it shouldnt, i know of a man from Tallaght who hasnt worked a day in his life, and is currently swanning round Britain going from race meeting to race meeting, who do you think is paying for that ?
thats a load of bull..and you know it mincer,the green and gold indeed do put a lot of doe in the game, but the rules are there for everyone, not just for some.
examples of it every day.one in last race test eve from dundalk..5/4 solid all day.5 min before off went rapidly out to 4.5 on here and ran accordingly,horse had a favs chance on paper.....who do we think is drifting him?!?! not the form men anyway!!
The betting trends are the most critical aspect of most races in my experience . Thus if a horse which is steady all day , suddenly drifts alarmingly just before the off and runs like a pig ( did not see the last race in question at Dundalk by the way ) there are entitled to be raised eyebrows . In such a case though , the layer (s) must be easily identified , or sometimes it can be the result of huge money for others in the race as we tend to have near 100% markets on here near the off .
However if it was Dundalk.... I have posted often about the over rounds at Dundalk , any market abnormalities there would not surprise me . The word betting jungle was not coined without thought .
However if it was Dundalk.... I have posted often about the over rounds at Dundalk , any market abnormalities there would not surprise me . The word betting jungle was not coined without thought .
true kelly,
ive seen plenty of wellbacked horses run stinkers? we get sucked in by good money for form horses (we all do it)
ive seen plenty of wellbacked horses run stinkers? we get sucked in by good money for form horses (we all do it)
ima_mazed66 19 Apr 16 18:19
That's because there isn't any to see mincer11 but I'm glad I can see yours as you are always good for a laugh.....Oh and just the 60 or so Grade 1 race wins for Fitzgerald and Henderson combined, including Cheltenham Festival races like the Arkle, Cathcart, Champion Hurdle, Coral Cup Hurdle, the Gold Cup, Queen Mother, RSA Chase, Ryanair Chase, Stayers' Hurdle, Triumph Hurdle, as well as Fiztgeral himself winning other top races like the Martell Aintree Hurdle, Bula Hurdle, Christmas Hurdle, Cleeve Hurdle, the Grand National, the King George, Martell Cup Chase, P@ddy P0wer Gold Cup, Racing Post Chase, Tingle Creek and the T0te Gold Trophy, with many of those races being won more than once.
Shall we also just forget that two of those so called Henderson "journeyman" jockeys have won the Cheltenham Gold Cup, one of them has won the Betfair Chase and the King George twice, the Mildmay of Flete at the Cheltenham Festival, the Becher Handicap Chase and Topham Chase too, with the other "journeyman" being able to add a Queen Mother to his Cheltenham Gold Cup win, as well as a Coral Cup and a Supreme Novices' Hurdle, plus several other grade race wins, with both of those "journeymen" having limited opportunities up until now.
I'll play along with you though and pretend that you can't actually see my messages and say that's a pity then, as if you could you wouldn't continuously make such an @rse of yourself and isn't it annoying when the facts get in the way of your nonsense arguments eh? Grin
That's because there isn't any to see mincer11 but I'm glad I can see yours as you are always good for a laugh.....Oh and just the 60 or so Grade 1 race wins for Fitzgerald and Henderson combined, including Cheltenham Festival races like the Arkle, Cathcart, Champion Hurdle, Coral Cup Hurdle, the Gold Cup, Queen Mother, RSA Chase, Ryanair Chase, Stayers' Hurdle, Triumph Hurdle, as well as Fiztgeral himself winning other top races like the Martell Aintree Hurdle, Bula Hurdle, Christmas Hurdle, Cleeve Hurdle, the Grand National, the King George, Martell Cup Chase, P@ddy P0wer Gold Cup, Racing Post Chase, Tingle Creek and the T0te Gold Trophy, with many of those races being won more than once.
Shall we also just forget that two of those so called Henderson "journeyman" jockeys have won the Cheltenham Gold Cup, one of them has won the Betfair Chase and the King George twice, the Mildmay of Flete at the Cheltenham Festival, the Becher Handicap Chase and Topham Chase too, with the other "journeyman" being able to add a Queen Mother to his Cheltenham Gold Cup win, as well as a Coral Cup and a Supreme Novices' Hurdle, plus several other grade race wins, with both of those "journeymen" having limited opportunities up until now.
I'll play along with you though and pretend that you can't actually see my messages and say that's a pity then, as if you could you wouldn't continuously make such an @rse of yourself and isn't it annoying when the facts get in the way of your nonsense arguments eh? Grin
Mincer, making aclown of himself again today ,you couldn't make it up. 
I would concur with the fact that the majority of us would initially campaign our horses with plots in mind but surely a threshold is reached?
To be worth around 2 billion and to be stroking with the regularity that the green and gold operate at is shameful at this stage.
The contrast between how the green and gold operate and Gigginstown, Ricci, Wylie and Potts operate is perspicuous to even a casual observer.
It's not an exaggeration to say that 95% of his runners have plots where as 95% of the combined other leading owners are running on their merits. Champion hurdle standard horses such as MTOY won a leading handicap of 140, Carlingford lough winning a Galway plate of 129. There are very exceptions to horses that are too good to be handicapped in these colours. Yanworth being one.
There are many similar operators, it would be naive to think not but there is certainly only one of his scale and it's almost impossible to avoid his runners.
His family/associates are still extremely active in all sides of every betting platform available.
I don't doubt his input in terms of sponsorship,philanthropy and employment but his association with Irish racing is a long term drain on any form of credibility in the sport here.
It's galling to see him imitating a modest gent after landing another festival handicap and receiving another love in interview. His lasting legacy for me will be one a perennial cheat who could never have enough.
Fair dues to the "impartial" gravy train driver who analysed the sectional timing,everyone is on the pay roll.
To be worth around 2 billion and to be stroking with the regularity that the green and gold operate at is shameful at this stage.
The contrast between how the green and gold operate and Gigginstown, Ricci, Wylie and Potts operate is perspicuous to even a casual observer.
It's not an exaggeration to say that 95% of his runners have plots where as 95% of the combined other leading owners are running on their merits. Champion hurdle standard horses such as MTOY won a leading handicap of 140, Carlingford lough winning a Galway plate of 129. There are very exceptions to horses that are too good to be handicapped in these colours. Yanworth being one.
There are many similar operators, it would be naive to think not but there is certainly only one of his scale and it's almost impossible to avoid his runners.
His family/associates are still extremely active in all sides of every betting platform available.
I don't doubt his input in terms of sponsorship,philanthropy and employment but his association with Irish racing is a long term drain on any form of credibility in the sport here.
It's galling to see him imitating a modest gent after landing another festival handicap and receiving another love in interview. His lasting legacy for me will be one a perennial cheat who could never have enough.
Fair dues to the "impartial" gravy train driver who analysed the sectional timing,everyone is on the pay roll.
His buyers and advisors have to take a lot of the blame Imo.
Throw enough darts and you'll get the odd good one but he gets landed with a ot of expensive dross that's barely up to winning handicap,s.
Plotting then becomes the only way for them to get a race and he has so many bad ones each day it sticks out.
The smaller trainers mightn't agree but JP would do himself a big favour by culling his string and as he wont replace Berry get someone in to "help" him.
Throw enough darts and you'll get the odd good one but he gets landed with a ot of expensive dross that's barely up to winning handicap,s.
Plotting then becomes the only way for them to get a race and he has so many bad ones each day it sticks out.
The smaller trainers mightn't agree but JP would do himself a big favour by culling his string and as he wont replace Berry get someone in to "help" him.
JP likes a punt and there's nothing wrong with that.
We Irish are notorious for scheming and generally admire anyone that pulls one off.
But the sheer numbers of the green and gold that run to their SP rather than their form has turned off the majority of observers judging by the almost universal negative reaction to the exoneration of all concerned.
We Irish are notorious for scheming and generally admire anyone that pulls one off.
But the sheer numbers of the green and gold that run to their SP rather than their form has turned off the majority of observers judging by the almost universal negative reaction to the exoneration of all concerned.
I doubt very much if JP does much punting nowadays apart from some of the higher profile races but no doubt many of his acquaintances/hangers-on punt plenty. There is nothing in it for him so I cant understand how he allows all the shenanigans to continue. Strange and I dont understand why - or perhaps I'm missing something.
I'd say he wouldn't have too many bets arkle but he gives the orders/green light to campaign them a certain way to pick up the bigger handicap,s .
Plenty of others then use this information to their advantage hence them running to their SP with the exception of a 4th or 5th string popping up in a top handicap.
Plenty of others then use this information to their advantage hence them running to their SP with the exception of a 4th or 5th string popping up in a top handicap.
"His lasting legacy for me will be one a perennial cheat who could never have enough.".....NOBLE EMPEROR (apt thread title or what 
)
)
Apr 19, 2016 -- 10:12PM, Arklearkle wrote:
I doubt very much if JP does much punting nowadays apart from some of the higher profile races but no doubt many of his acquaintances/hangers-on punt plenty. There is nothing in it for him so I cant understand how he allows all the shenanigans to continue. Strange and I dont understand why - or perhaps I'm missing something.
EGO-Power. It's no longer for monetary gain for him
The ability to act and behave with total impunity.
I wouldn't under-estimate the extent of how much his immediate family is still involved with the weekly racing markets,master manipulators.
Anyone with his wealth and of any moral compass would be embarrassed as to how his horses are campaigned.
What do you do if you have a useless son with expensive habits.
You let him go on a no questions asked exchange where he can do some judicious laying.
You let him go on a no questions asked exchange where he can do some judicious laying.
Matt Chapman - "Another brilliant ride form Barry J Geraghty on Carlingford Lough @ Punchestown. Bet the Limerick Races stewards are pleased. Yeeehaaa!"
Catch ,it makes it all the worse when you see what he CAN do when one is WANTED imo...
below is appeal body onclusion
Having considered the evidence, the Appeals Body noted that the race was unsatisfactory in the context of the way it was run. It was clear that Noble Emperor’s opportunity of winning had dissipated from a very early stage and in the circumstances second place was the best possible placing he could have achieved. They had to address whether or not Barry Geraghty made an error of judgement, and if he had done so, was there a breach of Rule 212. Their decision was based upon events as the race unfolded and whether or not different tactics were used, would the horse have obtained a better placing. In their view they were not satisfied that different tactics would have given the horse any opportunity to win and accepted that the horse did not have any opportunity to win the race at any relevant time. They noted that when maximum pressure was applied to Noble Emperor, it only produced a modest reaction and in the context of how the race was run, the opinion of the Appeals Body was that the horse’s best possible finishing position was second. On that basis they allowed all the appeals.
Having considered the evidence, the Appeals Body noted that the race was unsatisfactory in the context of the way it was run. It was clear that Noble Emperor’s opportunity of winning had dissipated from a very early stage and in the circumstances second place was the best possible placing he could have achieved. They had to address whether or not Barry Geraghty made an error of judgement, and if he had done so, was there a breach of Rule 212. Their decision was based upon events as the race unfolded and whether or not different tactics were used, would the horse have obtained a better placing. In their view they were not satisfied that different tactics would have given the horse any opportunity to win and accepted that the horse did not have any opportunity to win the race at any relevant time. They noted that when maximum pressure was applied to Noble Emperor, it only produced a modest reaction and in the context of how the race was run, the opinion of the Appeals Body was that the horse’s best possible finishing position was second. On that basis they allowed all the appeals.
the only time barry applied any pressure was when he approached the second last...........he was then 20 lengths behind and the RACE WAS OVER...........this is a total farce. how can any jockey now be banned for not trying "sir, please tell me barry G tried harder on noble emperor"
and another thing.........the appeal body seems to imply that if u lose ground at the start a jockey can now just do nothing because the opportunity of winning had dissipated from a very early stage and in the circumstances second place was the best possible placing he could have achieved
and another thing.........the appeal body seems to imply that if u lose ground at the start a jockey can now just do nothing because the opportunity of winning had dissipated from a very early stage and in the circumstances second place was the best possible placing he could have achieved
no one in the media has analysed what the appeal body has said..........they dare not upset the gravy train..........all one happy family...........taxpayers, please keep paying the subsidy......we are all great lads..........every jockey is a grand lad.......every trainer is shrewd.......roll on punchestown
RTE2 cover it today with david jennings from the racingpost.
Exactly BDJ , shameful in its belief that all punters are gobshytes ,I must remember to tell my mate to have a few quid on one of mine as evidence ,you couldn't make it up ffs .
Surely not the same bookie whos rep was better informed than most re Coolmore .Well I'll be danmed ...
More or less that the horse has problems,bad start,handicapper put him up a pound so it was his best run over hundles.
everyone is falling all over themselves to give barry the benefit of the doubt.......no one wants to upset the gravy train.
Cloone I was wondering about the betting slip. Was there any information given wrt the betting slip such as was it time-stamped, when was it placed etc etc. You could say that in a court of law we would have been told who placed the bet etc. Its all disgraceful.
If it was a substantial bet I would reckon it was done via phone or similar . It should be a matter of record then . If it was on course it might have been recorded , but then again sometimes the big bets were "gentlemans agreements" , certainly in the old days there was little paper about among the toffs and bookies . Most of us though have never had a bet "on credit" ( except via a friend maybe ) .
Doesn't matter who had what bet,the evidence is there for all to see the ride the horse got,makes you wonder would a betting slip get some lesser well known jockey/trainer off the hook?
It does matter a great deal who had the bet in question . If it was emanating from connections of the horse the notion that the horse was not trying becomes purely a review of the jockeyship involved . Does anyone think BJG would last 10 seconds if he pulled the horse which connections had backed ?
Catch Me ifyoucan • May 13, 2016 10:46 AM BST
And a 66/1 shot wins the Beginners Chase with JP 2nd, 3rd & 4th ! No bet so no 'disappointment'.
NO BET so WAS GLAD to see his horses beaten...just feel for BJG - am losing the respect I had for Barry at an alarming rate !
wildmanfromborneo • April 19, 2016 11:53 PM BST
What do you do if you have a useless son with expensive habits.
You let him go on a no questions asked exchange where he can do some judicious laying.
Catch Me ifyoucan • April 19, 2016 10:21 PM BST
"His lasting legacy for me will be one a perennial cheat who could never have enough.".....NOBLE EMPEROR (apt thread title or what )
And a 66/1 shot wins the Beginners Chase with JP 2nd, 3rd & 4th ! No bet so no 'disappointment'.
NO BET so WAS GLAD to see his horses beaten...just feel for BJG - am losing the respect I had for Barry at an alarming rate !
wildmanfromborneo • April 19, 2016 11:53 PM BST
What do you do if you have a useless son with expensive habits.
You let him go on a no questions asked exchange where he can do some judicious laying.
Catch Me ifyoucan • April 19, 2016 10:21 PM BST
"His lasting legacy for me will be one a perennial cheat who could never have enough.".....NOBLE EMPEROR (apt thread title or what
)
Post Your Reply
Please login to post a reply.
Wonder
Instance ID: 13539