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By Bill Barber, Industry editor
UPDATED 7:46PM, JAN 16 2023
Over recent months punters have contacted the Racing Post in their droves to complain about bookmaker affordability and source-of-funds checks, recounting requests for sensitive financial documents and sharing their anger at being subject to such intrusive checks simply in order to place a bet.
These correspondents have warned they are now being forced to abandon betting accounts and even their passion for betting on racing or other sports. Many have bet for decades, heightening their dismay and bewilderment that they are now being forced to jump through one hoop after another.
Among those frustrations have been complaints that punters' accounts have been frozen while they wait for their cases to be dealt with.
Some form of checks on punters' financial positions are expected to feature among the government's proposals in the government's long-delayed gambling review white paper.
However, in the meantime operators have been introducing their own, often widely differing, affordability checks under pressure from the Gambling Commission, as well as intensifying source-of-funds checks and anti-money laundering measures.
Worryingly for British racing, which depends on the betting industry for much of its income through the levy and media rights, some of those who contacted the Racing Post spoke of giving up their hobby rather than submit their information.
One punter, who wished to be quoted only as 'Stuart', said he was concerned whether with Cheltenham looming there would be a bookmaker willing to take his bets at the meeting.
Stuart said his salary was in six figures in 2020-21 and even after deciding to work less in 2021-22 it had still been more than £80,000.
He added: "So you would think showing bookmakers your P60 and the total you have in your account you use for betting would suffice, but that’s not good enough.
"They want to see every single transaction in and out of that account, which is ridiculous. Why should a bookmaker see payments towards your mortgage [if you have one], your energy provider etc etc?
"Anyway I have a fear this will be my last year punting at my beloved Cheltenham Festival, the way things are going."
Fellow punter Chris Littlewood said he was contacted by the Tote and asked to complete a form asking questions including details of income and monthly outgoings or his account would become inactive.
He added: "Well enough is enough and I just refused to provide the grossly intrusive details they wanted and so I am unable to stake a bet with the Tote app until I do. I'm just a small-time punter who has been betting 40 years but I will go without rather than put up with this intrusion."
Asked for a response, UK Tote Group chief executive Alex Frost said: "Our obligation to look after customers is paramount and we continue to operate within the guidelines set out by the Gambling Commission."
Mervyn Sheppard said bet365 had asked him for details of his finances after ten years with the firm betting £5 singles, £1 Yankees and £2 Trixies.
"Suddenly they want details of my finances," he added. "Ridiculous. I have been betting almost daily for 60 years and always paid bills on time. I know what I can afford to play with and it is not acceptable to be treated as a problem gambler."
Bet365 did not wish to comment when approached by the Racing Post.
Kim Deane said he bet on greyhounds but having had other accounts restricted he was only able to use Betfair, which chose to carry out checks following his retirement.
"They basically said the amount I could deposit in future was based on my income which is low as I took a big lump sum and a small pension," he added.
"I explained I owned my own house and had savings but they didn’t want to know and offered me a pathetic amount which was the average of what I normally staked on one bet.
"I am a responsible gambler and had already in place deposit and loss limits, so I know my limits.
"I refuse to show any bank account details to bookmakers. This is my hobby. I don't drink or smoke. I'm marooned in North Devon so can't go to greyhound tracks, which is my passion in life."
One owner and punter who contacted the Racing Post following an article on the impact of affordability checks in the series 'A Year To Save Racing', warned they could lead to people giving up racehorse ownership.
'Les' said he had held an account with one bookmaker for several decades and was a punter who would stake four-figure sums.
However, he said his account was frozen in December and remains so despite his having responded to requests for personal details including proof of his income, a tax statement, and a passport or driving licence.
Les said he had suffered a five-figure losing run, adding: "That's when they came in with this white paper thing and they've just said well we need more paperwork, utility bills and all sorts so I sent them all. But they have still not come back to unfreeze it."
Last year racehorse owner and punter Simon Prout told the Racing Post affordability checks might lead to owners leaving the sport as having a bet was part of the experience.
It is a sentiment with which Les, who said he has a number of jumps horses in training, agreed. He said: "I definitely think if they carry on like this you are going to see a lot of owners pulling out because it's just not worth the hassle.
"There are people who own horses who like a punt on their horses and if they come out with this white paper they will devastate the thing."
UPDATED 7:46PM, JAN 16 2023
Over recent months punters have contacted the Racing Post in their droves to complain about bookmaker affordability and source-of-funds checks, recounting requests for sensitive financial documents and sharing their anger at being subject to such intrusive checks simply in order to place a bet.
These correspondents have warned they are now being forced to abandon betting accounts and even their passion for betting on racing or other sports. Many have bet for decades, heightening their dismay and bewilderment that they are now being forced to jump through one hoop after another.
Among those frustrations have been complaints that punters' accounts have been frozen while they wait for their cases to be dealt with.
Some form of checks on punters' financial positions are expected to feature among the government's proposals in the government's long-delayed gambling review white paper.
However, in the meantime operators have been introducing their own, often widely differing, affordability checks under pressure from the Gambling Commission, as well as intensifying source-of-funds checks and anti-money laundering measures.
Worryingly for British racing, which depends on the betting industry for much of its income through the levy and media rights, some of those who contacted the Racing Post spoke of giving up their hobby rather than submit their information.
One punter, who wished to be quoted only as 'Stuart', said he was concerned whether with Cheltenham looming there would be a bookmaker willing to take his bets at the meeting.
Stuart said his salary was in six figures in 2020-21 and even after deciding to work less in 2021-22 it had still been more than £80,000.
He added: "So you would think showing bookmakers your P60 and the total you have in your account you use for betting would suffice, but that’s not good enough.
"They want to see every single transaction in and out of that account, which is ridiculous. Why should a bookmaker see payments towards your mortgage [if you have one], your energy provider etc etc?
"Anyway I have a fear this will be my last year punting at my beloved Cheltenham Festival, the way things are going."
Fellow punter Chris Littlewood said he was contacted by the Tote and asked to complete a form asking questions including details of income and monthly outgoings or his account would become inactive.
He added: "Well enough is enough and I just refused to provide the grossly intrusive details they wanted and so I am unable to stake a bet with the Tote app until I do. I'm just a small-time punter who has been betting 40 years but I will go without rather than put up with this intrusion."
Asked for a response, UK Tote Group chief executive Alex Frost said: "Our obligation to look after customers is paramount and we continue to operate within the guidelines set out by the Gambling Commission."
Mervyn Sheppard said bet365 had asked him for details of his finances after ten years with the firm betting £5 singles, £1 Yankees and £2 Trixies.
"Suddenly they want details of my finances," he added. "Ridiculous. I have been betting almost daily for 60 years and always paid bills on time. I know what I can afford to play with and it is not acceptable to be treated as a problem gambler."
Bet365 did not wish to comment when approached by the Racing Post.
Kim Deane said he bet on greyhounds but having had other accounts restricted he was only able to use Betfair, which chose to carry out checks following his retirement.
"They basically said the amount I could deposit in future was based on my income which is low as I took a big lump sum and a small pension," he added.
"I explained I owned my own house and had savings but they didn’t want to know and offered me a pathetic amount which was the average of what I normally staked on one bet.
"I am a responsible gambler and had already in place deposit and loss limits, so I know my limits.
"I refuse to show any bank account details to bookmakers. This is my hobby. I don't drink or smoke. I'm marooned in North Devon so can't go to greyhound tracks, which is my passion in life."
One owner and punter who contacted the Racing Post following an article on the impact of affordability checks in the series 'A Year To Save Racing', warned they could lead to people giving up racehorse ownership.
'Les' said he had held an account with one bookmaker for several decades and was a punter who would stake four-figure sums.
However, he said his account was frozen in December and remains so despite his having responded to requests for personal details including proof of his income, a tax statement, and a passport or driving licence.
Les said he had suffered a five-figure losing run, adding: "That's when they came in with this white paper thing and they've just said well we need more paperwork, utility bills and all sorts so I sent them all. But they have still not come back to unfreeze it."
Last year racehorse owner and punter Simon Prout told the Racing Post affordability checks might lead to owners leaving the sport as having a bet was part of the experience.
It is a sentiment with which Les, who said he has a number of jumps horses in training, agreed. He said: "I definitely think if they carry on like this you are going to see a lot of owners pulling out because it's just not worth the hassle.
"There are people who own horses who like a punt on their horses and if they come out with this white paper they will devastate the thing."
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The funny thing is that just this morning I was emailed by one online bookie to say they've conducted an affordability review and limited my losses to several thousand pounds a month.
This without asking for any payslips, bank statements or any other documents. Instead, they consulted TransUnion, a credit ratings agency, and of course they already have details of my past punting with them (much of which comprises declining my bets, so far as I can see). https://www.transunion.co.uk/ Alternatively, I've fallen for a phishing email, as it is apparently designed to look like one! Away from betting, I've just spent three weeks trying to persuade my savings company that the money I paid into my ISA really was mine and that I am not laundering money for Central American narco gangs. It might make things clearer if the Racing Post and bookmakers made it clear whether they were checking affordability, money-laundering and source of funds, or identity (know your customer). Or, dare I say it, as a way of ditching certain customers without closing their accounts. And here we should also acknowledge that some "professional punters" really do use other people's identities to open accounts. |
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The bookmaker rag that is the RP telling us that those making money from gambling don't want it restricted.
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"There are people who own horses who like a punt on their horses [b]and if they come out with this white paper they will devastate the thing."[/b]
It's the fact they started the fire by suggesting they WOULD come out with such a thing and then never have which created the problem. Producing such a Paper might clarify things somewhat....the very fact they cant ever meet self imposed deadlines explains the reality of the situation; that this apparent Tory government fundamentally cant bring themselves to say 'free market economics', while playing to the galleries of hand wringers that they are actually doing things to help disaffected people. If there were any hope on this crazy quasi- ideological politics atm its that this government finally hammered a stake in the ground over questionable scottish gender issues....hopefully they will carry this on. |
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The individual exists no more in the eyes of those who make the rules. We are all subjects of 'AA'....
the Almighty Algorythm! |
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The GC are much like sepsis, they did bugger all for too long and are now over reacting apparently.
Just like the immune system that kills the patient. |
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I suppose the 'over reaction' is due to the chronic costs and harm to society that problem gambling has caused over the last 50 years. One thing is for sure, bookmakers will do nothing unless they are pressured into something.
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The Gambling Commission has dished out multi-million pound fines to bookmakers. That is why they are taking this seriously, not because they are second-guessing a white paper.
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I think they are taking it seriously as they realise the easy money they have been making may be coming to an end. They have operated in an almost completely unregulated market for years and behaved accordingly. I have no sympathy for them.
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Many people will walk away....for me it would be a big hole in my life , I love racing and gambling ....but I would eventually get over it ....and once that happens would not come back...
Management are generally over promoted idiots who simply use authority to enforce often crap policies..........horse racong is littered with hapless leaders all over the industry........... |
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I think they are taking it seriously as they realise the easy money they have been making may be coming to an end. They have operated in an almost completely unregulated market for years and behaved accordingly. I have no sympathy for them.
Unfortunately the lack of empathy towards bookmakers manifests itself as a major inconvienience to the majority (and has little effect on the bookie who has the opening door of America to subsidise any shortfall in revenues) which seems to be the apparent mood music of the times. Minorities are the new-age gods that must be appeased at all cost. |
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That last Line is so so true
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God help us, if they ever get their way with a cashless society.
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Tbf that's what needs to happen. Far, far too many people gambling and therefore too many problem gamblers that society can't afford. We need to stop encouraging people to walk into bookmakers and start their gambling life. Most people don't really want to, they just do because it's there. They would find something else to do and I doubt their lives would be any worse off.
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Got a list of activities you dont think others should be doing or is it just this?
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Not all Dusty, which ones do you think people are doing that do as much harm to society as gambling.
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What harm does gambling do, and which variety of risk taking doesnt appeal to you?
The one called gambling or investing? Life is hard, if losing cant be accepted then neither can winning and life will be sterile. |
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There are all sorts of life lessons that one must be stoical about.
You drink too much and you pay with your health. |
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yeah all mountain climbing should be stopped as well and no pubs.
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Lol. get real. What harm does gambling do??? The trouble is everybody body wants to do exactly what they want to do and have some sort of 'individual freedom' philosophy to support it. When it all goes wrong and society has to clean the mess up you just sweep that under the carpet. You might want to consider that a bottle of whisk has nearly £10 tax on it and a pack of **** is nearly a tenner and no advertising on TV allowed. Trust me the GC proposals will do a lot less harm than than the restrictions on drinking and smoking.
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Aye I'm sure it does LH...
Sorry you have spent your gambling allowance this month Sorry you have used your petrol allowance this month Sorry you can't buy anymore drink this month Sorry you have used up your chocolate/sweet allowance this month Sorry you can't go abroad on holiday you have had your yearly allowance Sorry you can't buy anymore cigarettes or vape this month. Can't wait for that to come in. |
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Oh but your helping those who may have issues and your saving the environment
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TH
You can still buy whiskey or cigs without producing documents....you can even buy enough to kill you on the spot. But gambling (which itself is one version of a myriad of other risk ventures) gets singled out....even though it is already taxed as well and far more people enjoy it than are ruined by it. |
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For some reason gambling gets targetted by people as the vice of all vices, it makes me wonder why it gets such unilateral hatred by some?
I can guess it has something to do with sour grapes.... |
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I'm not sure if you are just sort of playing devils advocate or you believe what you are posting. Dealer, I think the point is that you can't go into a pub, go on holiday, buy sweets, fill your car with petrol (although that one might change) and go home and tell the wife you have blown the rent, all the savings and you have to go to the council for a house and need an emergency loan to feed the family. You really don't seem to understand the real issues. Dusty you are doing you usual, slipping off topic because your arguments are folding around your ears. Gambling is an addiction that ruins lives and massively contributes to money laundering which supports many criminal activities. There is no unilateral hatred for gambling but a realisation that the lack of any restriction for years has resulted in a problem that is costing people dearly.
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@truehoncho
Surely the man (it's always a man) who blows his wage packet in the pub and leaves his wife to bring up their children in poverty with the rent baliffs at the door is a staple of fiction founded in reality? |
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I used to have four or five different betting accounts i closed them all bar my Betfair account because it is the only one that has not asked for affordability checks....And if it does i will shut this account down....I just aint havin it.
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The irony is that bookmakers know (or should know) who the problem gamblers are. Their VIP list would be a good starting point.
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Wow Longbridge. Really? If you really believe that I'm sorry. It is a daily occurrence everywhere over the country. Councils have lists of people defaulting on rent due to gambling and people in emergency accommodation because they have been thrown out. Its pretty sad that people don't realise that things like this are happening.
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I think they do Brian. I don't think they care.
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Where am I slipping off the subject?
The assumed apparent evils of gambling are targetted unilaterally, when dangers direct to health are permitted to go unsanctioned to the extent one can spend what they wish on them. Its selective puritanism on your behalf. People lose their shirt on other types of investment regularly, many CFD trading resembles gambling on gaming on a phone, but they arn't even under the same regulator let alone being under scrutiny like gambling as a whole. This nonsense about addiction is always only a problem when somebody loses, by definition it wouldnt be a problem if they win. If a person cant determine that they have a problem with addiction when they lose all their money and check themselves into the help that is available then they arnt being responsible, and therefore are irresponsible....why should everyone else pay for their irresponsibility? |
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Its amazing apparently how big a deal losing money at gambling is said to be by LH....when the majority dont have any money to start with and thats not because of gambling.
You cant lose what you dont have as Nietzsche famously said. |
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Brian.... these checked aren't restricted to problem gamblers, these checks are done on people who bet responsibly, within their means and as a hobby.
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Gamblers who are going to ruin their lives through gambling will still ruin their lives through gambling. Not being able to place a bet online isn’t going to help those out. There are bookies and arcades in every town. Casinos or playing cards in the pub. It won’t matter to them.
It may help a few out. It might also prevent some people from getting hooked in the first place. Mainly it’s going to affect people who aren’t problem gamblers. |
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With reference to the tote, my long standing account was in credit since I've had it and only showed increase in stakes for meetings such as Cheltenham & R.A.
Those big meetings aside it was a very steady and consistent pattern of my betting on placepots. I didn't need any " looking after" as Tote C.E.O. Alex Frost has suggested. It's all completely absurd. Even the bloke I had dialogue with simply said, "I'm just doing my job." What a croc. |
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There are a mountain of things to help problem gamblers,
Self exclusion, gamcare, setting limits, debit card blocking, safer Gambling interactions in shops, time outs from online accounts If they don't want help what else do you suggest, do the majority who do bet responsibly need to change their habits to cater for them |
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Puritanism? Have you missed that I am on a gambling forum? Your quoting Nietzsche on a thread about regulating bookies and you can't see where your slipping off subject? You seem not to accept that gambling is a problem for society, which is just a basic fact. Addiction (to anything) isn't a joke and your indifference to it probably clouds your judgement. The idea that gambling is under some sort of unfair unilateral scrutiny is just bonkers. For the last 50 years its been under little or no scrutiny at all.
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@truehoncho
"If you really believe that I'm sorry. It is a daily occurrence everywhere over the country. Councils have lists of people defaulting on rent due to gambling and people in emergency accommodation because they have been thrown out. Its pretty sad that people don't realise that things like this are happening." Where did I say I didn't believe people were losing everything because of gambling problems. Of course I do. I was reacting you your suggestion "I think the point is that you can't go into a pub... and go home and tell the wife you have blown the rent, all the savings and you have to go to the council for a house and need an emergency loan to feed the family." when that is demonstrably the case in some households. Both things (people screw up their lives with gambling and people screw up their lives with alcohol) can be true at the same time. |
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No TH, its because the points that have been made to such as you never get adequately addressed so what are we supposed to do keep asking the same questions only for you to continue to not answer them?
The lack of regulation went hand in glove with all other types of deregulation, many of which had much greater impacts on society financially yet wont get properly policed. Gambling is small fry compared to those and frankly those who it effects need to be more responsible, thats a universal constant and there is no avoiding it. |
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I apologise I missed your point Longbridge.
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