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The Sun -declaring Leave
The Sun -declaring Leave
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Kavvie - Why would Europe rip off Britain and threaten them?
To make us an example to anyone else thinking of leaving. It will be in the EU's interests to ensure they stay strong together. If other countries see we leave and get all the benefits of not being in the EU and none of the negatives then they will be pushing to exit as well. However, if they see us struggle then anyone thinking of leaving will probably think again. And the EU will still be in a strong position to decide our success or failure in their negotiations on trade tariffs etc. They can decide to go easy with low tariffs and border checks or they can demand more and make things far tougher, so protecting companies and interests of EU members. If there's a book going I'm guessing the latter will be pretty much unbackable. |
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Kavvie is right. Regards immigrants into Britain - it is way too late. Talk about trying to close the stable door after the horse has bolted.
But what is done is done. We have to close borders in order to protect our citizens. But the enemy is already well and truly amongst us. |
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Blackrock, right on both counts, yes it is to late, however you have to stop somewhere. However immigration is not the only problem.
One of the biggest stumbling blocks to leaving, some minorities are trying to turn this into a colour arguement. This could result in a big bloc vote to stay. |
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Immigration is prob the biggest factor on voting, but self governing wouldnt be too far behind.
I'd say plenty of black British people will vote OUT. |
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PP, that's an extraordinary statement - that the EU can't hold itself together on its own merits and needs to rely on implicit threats and blackmail to keep people in the 'club'
Furthermore, tariff levels will be decided on the basis of politics, irrespective of the damage done to the European economies? And you want to remain in this? |
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Room - It may be extraordinary but I think it's true. Politics and business baby. At the same time, the brexiters are voting for the same thing: to protect the interest of Britain to the exclusion of others.
I don't think the EU is ideal (I don't think anyone on the remain camp has ever claimed this) but I think the damage that will be done by leaving will see us slipping from a world power to a second rate nation very quickly indeed. And the rest of the EU will benefit and be laughing their little **** off at us all the while. |
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Britain Elects @britainelects · 2m2 minutes ago
EU referendum poll: Remain: 47% (-13) Leave: 53% (+13) (via Ipsos Mori, phone / 11 - 14 Jun) Excluding DKs Methodology changes |
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Yeah, they'll be laughing all the way to the dole office.
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Britain Elects @britainelects · 2m2 minutes ago
EU referendum poll: Remain: 42% (-2) Leave: 45% (+7) (via Survation, phone / 15 Jun) |
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Immigration seems to be the key.
Yet, if we leave, what can change, assuming we want to trade with the EU, and, in doing so, will be required to continue free movement of people? "Control of our borders" is the war cry yet no-one has explained what this will mean; indeed, they can't as it will be the government that decides. At a time of "full employment", throttling immigration would be foolhardy anyway. I own a company in London and UK citizens make up around 5% of our unskilled workforce. We'd like more Brits, they just aren't around. |
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Jollie.. the nail hit the head on
I have wrestled with the issues but there are 2 that are non-negotiable for me. Vote Leave 1 . We must not lose our democracy that generations have fought so hard for . 2 . It is total madness to have an open border policy . With terrorism and I.S. on the march it is 100% common sense to have an Australian style immigration system to check who is coming in . For the protection of the citizens of this great proud multi-cultural country. |
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cyclops...'they just arent around and willing to take a ludicrously low wage level'
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Nonsense.
National Living wage now 7.20. Two years ago, Minimum Wage was 6.50 so the increase at the bottom is 11%, plus the tax threshold has risen. If not the highest minimum in Europe, certainly very close to being. |
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Not everyone who wants to leave is a swivel-eyed loon.
However, every swivel-eyed loon wants to leave. |
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swivel-one-eyed loon
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There is not one reason to remain. The EU benefits Germany principally and some of the new member states. It is a doomed and failed project dreamt up by gravy train furry rabbit socialists who have private healthcare, schooling for their children and benefit packages the rest of us can only dream of.
The UK is fully capable of finding a way forward after Brexit, we always have done and always will. Our own currency and interest rates will work even better in global markets and the reduction in what is planned increased rule from Brussels can be avoided. Good employers always polish their diamonds and I believe wages will increase in a shrinking labour market and can see no reason why workers rights will go into reverse. We must get back control of immigration , pure logistics tell you that current levels are totally unsustainable and the terrorist threat can be better managed out of Europe. Europe is terrified we will leave because they know plenty will follow, that is their fear and that in itself tells you how weak this ridiculous project has become. In 5 to 10 years time a true European economic model might make sense and out of the EU we will have some influence over this events as I have no doubt the UK will prosper away from this cess pit of deluded ideology. |
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The increase in minimum wage is the government attempting to protect migrant workers from ruthless employers looking for ever more wage profits from cheap EU labour. This is keep the cheap labour train running on time their friends in business. Alas the lower paid uk workers with UK MORTGAGES to pay cannot compete with this. Disgusting.
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So are you advocating NOT increasing it?
Now we Know. On what basis is the current level of immigration "totally unsustainable" with unemployment at a ten year low and approaching the lowest ever jobless percentage? |
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Prof. John Curtice's
now no fav--to close |
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Get trading on Betfair then.
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cyclops 16 Jun 16 13:08
So are you advocating NOT increasing it? Now we Know. On what basis is the current level of immigration "totally unsustainable" with unemployment at a ten year low and approaching the lowest ever jobless percentage? On the basis that our infrastructure cannot cope as it is. Shall we keep cramming ever more people in and hope it keeps working? |
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Our infrastructure certainly won't cope if those who staff the NHS are precluded from working in this country.
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Saddo, no we don't but we don't cut our nose off to spite our face.
If you really think we're going to see a bounce in wages you're deluded. At a time when businesses will be finding it more difficult to trade they're just gonna increase their salaries to attract Brits who previously preferred to sit on their arses claiming disability benefit rather than get up early and go to work. Just ain't gonna happen. Not until we really get cracking with kicking out those foreign types. If you want to make the country better for Brits then turn your ire on the politicians and big businesses complicit in suppressing wages, using zero hour contracts etc etc. At the same time, tighten up the benefits system so we are not seen as a soft touch for people to come here and sponge off the state. |
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"Those foreign types". Sponging off the state. Daily Mail/Express/Farage world view.
Xenophobia at the heart of the Brexiters as ever. |
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We can indeed turn our ire on our own politicians porcupine, every 5 years. We cannot though ever vote out those in Brussels to whose tune our "leader"- whoever that happens to be- must always dance.
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Having lived in France for 12 years and travelled the world working and for pleasure I am no little Englander. In France workers have all the rights needed, but no work. This is replicated throughout Europe.
The minimum wage is a joke in the UK, does any really think employers have increased their wage bills  The most important factor is that jobs are available in an enterprise economy not guarantees in a stagnant bureaucratic nightmare that has done nothing for working people in Europe.Personally, I would abolish ALL benefits other than for the handicapped and for a limited period after losing your job. No tax credits, Child Benefit etc. |
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cyclops,
On the basis that our infrastructure cannot cope as it is. Shall we keep cramming ever more people in and hope it keeps working? No one on the leave side has ever tried an answer to this, we will never catch up, never mind get a bit in front, while unlimited migration is allowed. So if we stay we must just hope everything keeps working, while any economic improvement we may have will only lead to more population shift. Things will collapse soon enough imo. |
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Cyclops.
With another eye you old see the full picture. |
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500k French workers in London alone. Do the Remain campaign not get it! 200k Spanish in London. The legislation that has denied them and their offspring a future is heading our way if we stay in this job crushing, enterprise wasteland called the European Union, a union where the elite supress workers and their aspirations.
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But immigrants make a net contribution. We would be worse off without them. Never mind how the health service would crumble overnight without foreign workers. Must have missed the queues of Brits looking to earn slightly over minimum wage to work in nursing homes.
The infrastructure's fine or at least it would be with a competent government. Maybe less fascination in ensuring house prices remain ridiculously high and possibly build more (social) housing that is affordable, maybe less concentration on the south east. This is just walking away from the whole thing when the "bad bits" can be solved with some effective legislation and policing. |
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Part of the problem is where to build the millions of 'social houses' needed. Tower blocks did not work and are getting blown up.
Unfortunately avoiding work is now a good career choice. A young relative of my wife only wanted part time pocket money jobs after leaving school and later getting pregnant by her unemployed boy friend. They married and the child is about six. They have a very nice private sector house a few doors away from her Mum paid for by the State no one forces him to get a job in an area (Kent) that immigrants flock to for well paid agricultural work. |
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possibly build more (social) housing that is affordable
Great stuff, can you make sure they build an extra 100k of em this year to house next years influx from the EU. |
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Yay! Let's blame it all on the foreigners. Not the policies that have decimated the country. Let's just follow what Murdoch tells us and point at the funny looking people all talking funny.
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It aint about blame, things need fixing now, "possibly building houses" is sticking yer head in the sand. There is no short term answer to coping without further discontent as far as I can see. The only short term answer is to stop the bodies coming in until we build places to put them, but the EU will not tolerate anything as practical as that.
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But how will it stop? Farage was on telly last week saying the EU is unfair because it's stopping Commonwealth migrants entering. And they've got far darker skin so are much more scary.
And even then, he - or Boris, or IDS or anyone else pontificating on the issue - won't decide who comes in or not. It'll be the government at the time. |
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Our housing situation has to worsen year on year unless we build massively or stop the population boom. The former will not happen, next week we have the chance to control the latter. I do have an interest in this, my daughter has had to leave a decent job in London because she is sick of paying 600 a month for a room and wants her own property. Moving north is the only way she can achieve this, and then only with much help towards a deposit. Many of her generation will rent for their lifetime.
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Saddo, it was ever thus. We left London in 1957 after a succession of furnished flats with increasing rents. No one rented unfurnished in those days as they could not get you out. No way at that time we could afford to buy there and moved to Scotland where we could but when more affluent moved back south in 1966. My wife's brother moved to Kent where he could afford to buy. All of her cousins moved north until they found an area they could afford and most settled north of Luton.
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When we never had it so good in the late 50's Harold MacMillan built 300,000 houses a year.
http://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2013/10/how-macmillan-built-300000-houses-a-year.html A lot of my relatives got nice new Council houses in new estates like the Inch in Edinburgh. Who would want to live in them now ? Gang ridden, drug ridden sink estates. |
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Britain Elects @britainelects · 3m3 minutes ago
EU referendum poll: Remain: 48% Leave: 48% (via SurveyMonkey / 08 - 15 Jun) Pollster not a member of the British Polling Council. |
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67 likes
Reply Retweet 105 Like 67 More Britain Elects @britainelects With the latest BMG, Survation and Mori polls our #EUref averages stand at: Remain: 42.9% Leave: 47.6% |