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Why was Frankel rated so much higher than Sea The Stars?
Why was Frankel rated so much higher than Sea The Stars?
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Well let's put it this way metro john, you're doing all you can to pick holes in Frankel whilst at the very same time turning a very blind eye to question marks against Sea The Stars.
For what it's worth Sea The Stars was the first horse in a long time that genuinely excited me during his 3 year old career. Then Frankel came along and well there was just no comparison there. |
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metro john
frankel met every target he had for 3 seasons there were no injuries no change of mind as a 4yo everybody could plan there season around him they knew where he would be and he was always there,york will never see a day like the day he came and all those people at ascot in October will remember the day for ever ,and the beauty of his 4yo season was he attracted many new people to the racecourse,even at goodwood he made the national sports pages this on the day team gb won there first gold medal at a home Olympics. |
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http://youtu.be/V18ui3Rtjz4 - plenty more before him you blind feckers.
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fozwald • October 22, 2014 12:34 PM BST
People talk about Frankel beating the same horses all the time. What about Sea The Stars? STS faced Rip Van Winkle 3 times, Mastercraftsman 3 times & Fame And Glory 3 times. He only had 9 runs. There were also more flaws in STS's form than Frankel's. Beat a non-stayer in the 2000 Guineas and had too much speed for Fame In Glory in a poor Derby & Irish Champion. Fozwald where were sts connections supposed to go? he raced in all the top races, why on gods green earth did frankel race over a mile until his last 2 starts as a 4 year old? Can u give me a logical explanation for that? What do YOU think Cecils thinking was in all of this?Why not race Frankel in the Champion stakes a at the end of his 3 yr old season instead of race over a mile again, against excellebration again? What did sea the stars have to prove at the end of his 3 yr old season, his record as a 3 yr old is the best in the history of the sport since it began, no horse has ever won guineas derby arc in one season let alone win the others too. due to the nature of the racing business he was simply too valuable as a stallion, he was never going to race beyond and had cecil won those races with frankel u would have never seen him after 3. |
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he had already beaten the winner of the Irish derby OVER 12F.
Thats the funny think about it, Frankel gets praise for beating TREASURE BEACH who won the irish derby which ok well done Frankel however, he beat treasure beach as a 2 yr old over 8 bloody furlongs, had he actually beaten him over 12f as a 3 yr old then fair enough. |
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ilikewavingatbuses
you make some very fair points and I am sorry for forgetting zarkava as you rightly say a true champion.the decision to run Nijinsky in the champion stakes was a little before my time going racing but I have watched the video on him and of course read about him.connections wanted him to go out with a win as did the connections many years later of montjue,both as we know were beaten.the derby isn't everything all though I do still consider it to be the world greatest flat race and frankel wasn't thought right for the race by his very capable trainer.for what its worth the 4 best flat horses I have ever seen never won the derby and you could also include harbinger in that if you could believe his king George performance. |
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sea the stars was the greatest
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Yes Foxy Harbingers performance was something else, however I find it hard to believe his rating as he only ever ran like that once.
I mean how does a horse simply do that? Did he improve 20lbs on everything else he had previously shown? Its hard to explain but just look at the race he had at chester that yr, not near as impressive and yet he beats workforce et al 10 L easing down,amazing to watch but i dont truly believe hes that good. Ive also learned to not take form too literally because it never works out as it should due to one reason or another, pace,ground, track, fitness there are simply too many variables to explain why one horse has run the way it has run, spectacular nonetheless. I agree the Derby isnt everything and as I said i dont question frankels ability one of the few horses that u can actually illustrate how good he is by his performances, and to compare him is pointless really but I think everything has to be factored in when looking at the greatness of a horse because to simply declare one horse better than the others is quite something to say. So if horse A didnt run in whatever race u have to ask why? Even tho we might never know the answer, and if another horse did run in blah blah race and won this has to be considered, temperament is a factor and it is part of all great horses, and actually makes them the great horses they are because it ALLOWS them tom compete and win the so called 'best' races, its the reason horses get beaten too. Its an interesting debate anyway, we'll never know anything regarding these mythical races but its fun to debate. |
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yes they are fun to debate ilikewavingatbuses and it wont pay any bills at the end of them,somebody posted earlier on the thread that when sea the stars came along it was the first 3yo to excite him for many years and he is right.
ocean finance has made his mind up |
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Harbinger was a late developing,improving sort,he had shown very much improved form in each of his previous runs,many choose to ignore this point,but they will go on to tell you that Bullet Train etc had improved?,Harbinger would have been a very short price in the ARC and the Books would have lost a lot. His victory in the KG will last in the memory above others,Workforce may have under - performed?,but by how much? Frankel would not have beaten Harbinger on this day over this 12f trip,but nor would Harbinger have beat Frankel in the guineas over the mile.
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yes ILWAB, Harbingers KG and Sea The Moons German Derby ..... two performances that are too good to be true, My criteria of judging horses is their second best performance however good their best is, or appears to be
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Concerning Sea The moon,he was a bit of a nutcase a hard puller,to do what he did in the german derby is beyond words,and then too quicken from the front and run a mile wide?,it must have left a big mark,a one off,but magical.
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the media , you only have to listen to today's commentators who never miss a trick or an opportunity to mention or relate to "frankel. the just same as when the horse was racing .cecils illness (although i dont like using the fact ) also has to be included seeing as the two things were allways linked( by the media ) during the horses career
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anybody have any views on who was better, Frankel or Brigadier Gerard?
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I think you have to look at the way the horses were ridden
STS was ridden to perfection to expend the least amount of energy to win each race. Frankel was not and some poor tactics were employed and he still remained unbeaten and then some. |
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there wont be to many around Duncan who saw them both in the flesh including me all I know is I would be very surprised if theres ever been one as good as frankel.
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Frankel had a sh!t jock, shame he came too early for James Doyle
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1972 thoroughbred v 2012 thoroughbred, almost a different species in comparison - yesteryear champions wouldn't be able to live with Galileo's offspring
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in the post the other sunday where they do that questionnaire on racing people they had yammi on {looks after troublesome horses}they asked him whats the best horse he has ever seen.
his answer was frankel by a million miles. |
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Brigadier Gerard for me was the better horse. He had to deal with horses such as Mill Reef and My Swallow and won at distances from 5f to 12f.
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The great horseman and legend that is Mick Kinane, always maintains he only ever asked Sea the Stars for 80-90%, tonnes in hand and in the tank. Has to be one of the greatest for me.
Frankel, I also consider a great, if a bit overhyped by the English media. Twould have been a head bobber over 1m , head bobber over an easy 1m2f, Sea the Stars over a stiff 1m2f and Sea the Stars easily over The Arc and The Derby distance of 1m4F. |
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A head bobber over a mile?
Tell me, which of Sea The Stars performances over 7 furlongs or a mile would have got him within 5 lengths of Frankel over that distance let alone a head bobber? |
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Ironically Sea The Stars was by a miler but won the 2000gns against mostly average milers or stayers and so they gambled on trying once to see if he got 12f. Frankel on the other hand was by a stayer but won his 2000gns so impressively showing good early speed and sectional times and by a ridiculous distance that you can understand them thinking they only had a miler.
fozwald 22 Oct 14 12:25 His non-Derby appearance also proved to be spot on. It might well have been detrimental to his future like it was to a horse like Dawn Approach. Dawn Approach got spooked when another horse ran into the back of him and then pulled too hard and wouldn't settle but I think it's a bit of a stretch to say the Derby was detrimental to his future when he then came out and won the SJP next time and was only narrowly beaten in the Sussex the time after. I personally didn't think the horse was ever a miler but just good enough to win the 2000gns due to how early in the 3YO season that race comes and the further the season went on, the more it looked like a mile was too short and he would get done for speed. They maybe should have tried the Irish Derby as it's hard to say going by a one off when a horse pulls so hard and doesn't settle that he doesn't get more than a mile. grendel 22 Oct 14 14:03 Frankel had a sh!t jock, shame he came too early for James Doyle How exactly can you improve being unbeaten on the horse? That "sh1t jock" must have also somehow fluked the 60 or so group races he has won so far during his career too. |
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As a 3 year old, Frankel was a 135-138 horse IMO. Could you make the argument STS was better at that age? Possibly. Certainly over 10 furlongs
But as a 4 year old, Frankel was a 145 horse easily - possibly a 150 animal. Not possible to argue that STS was that good. Would STS have got better with age? Again, probably, but I would doubt he could have improved to that level. |
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A head bobber over a mile?
Marcce did you see the original question? In receipt of 7lb? Sea The Stars v Frankel over 8-10f? yes, it should be a head bobber over 10f. Sea The Stars would have needed a stone over a mile. |
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Wasn't responding to your much earlier post AG. It was mrtopnotch above I was referring to and I don't think he was bringing 7 pounds into the equation there either.
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What I saw and form lines tell me Sea the Stars excelled in an average year. Canford Cliffs and Goldikova where better milers using Rip Van Wankle as a guide. Sea the Stars was a great horse over 1mile 2f+ but would not have beaten the greatest over either trip IMO
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CDA v Youmzain imo
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after what fozwold just posted what a pair of racehorses not that we really needed reminding but given all those facts you realise just how good they both were and how lucky we have been to have seen them.
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Ok Marcce i thought my head bobber remark was in question.
Yes Foxy well said,. |
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Frankel all the way for me. STS only had 1 good season, whilst Frankel was a champion at 2, 3 and 4.
Yes, Frankel nevel raced at 1 1/2 miles, but then again he was never to be a Derby Horse. Kind was a sprinter, his 3/4's brother Bullet Train failed to stay the Derby trip. His full brother, Noble Mission, who I believe has more stamina than Frankel, only just stays the trip. Frankel would beat STS at 8f and 10f, however 12f I would say STS would win purely because of Frankels stamina doubts. |
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Just wondering also, how do you compare athletes in the past tense? By their wins in say the European championships, AAA's or commonwealth games, or by winning at the world championships and Olympics?
For me, Frankel only ever won the 2nd tier events, whereas STS won at the major events. STS Beresford Stakes (Worlds) 2,000 Guineas (Worlds) Epsom Derby (Olympics) Eclipse Stakes (Worlds) International Stakes (Worlds) Irish Champion Stakes (Worlds) Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe (Olympics) Frankel Royal Lodge Stakes Dewhurst Stakes (Worlds) Greenham Stakes (Worlds) 2,000 Guineas Stakes (Worlds) St. James's Palace Stakes (Worlds) Sussex Stakes (Worlds) Queen Elizabeth II Stakes (Worlds) Lockinge Stakes (Worlds) Queen Anne Stakes (Worlds) International Stakes (Worlds) Champion Stakes (Worlds) |
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It appears from your list that the only events capable of being 'Olympic standard' are over 1m4f...
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Very good debate lads and lassies. I don't know who is the best so I will leave it to others. On the tv the other day a company called racemodlr were advertising their computerised form showing how races would have finished according to them. It included the virtual QE11 involving all of the top rated milers and they had Frankel a nose in front of Brigadier Gerard. I'm happy with that because they wouldn't know everything about BG whereas they would know everything about Frankel including the hype and no new company trying to sell its product would have it the other way around.
Do I think Frankel would win over 12f? I have no idea but Tudor Minstrel won the 2000 Guineas by much further, was long odds on for the Derby and finished 4th. No-one knows until they do it. |
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why on Earth would you put any faith in some cartoon race from a mob you had no experience of?
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Good post mirisoo,
STS Beresford Stakes (Worlds) 2,000 Guineas (Worlds) Epsom Derby (Olympics) Eclipse Stakes (Worlds) International Stakes (Worlds) Irish Champion Stakes (Worlds) Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe (Olympics) That is a very impressive CV,and worthy of greatness. |
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Well DI the chap has been doing this since he left University many years ago and was prepared to put his time and money where his mouth is.You cannot spend your life knocking everyone who doesn't agree with you.
The besthng willbe when all of he hype has died down and the acievement is looked at in the cold light of day. It may not be until the next champion arrives but it surely will hapen just as you guys are pulling horsesof the past apart. |
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Sorry about the spelling I'm using my wife's ipad. Just cannot get on with it.
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sir henry was a genius,frankel never gave weight for age away.still the best racehorse u will ever see.
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Frankel was a monster - unbeatable over a mile by anything we've ever seen.
STS had the almost perfect 3yo season - only winning the King George instead of York could have bettered it. 2 of the all-time greats. |