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Just curious to know how they rated one so inferior to the other..
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Because based on Frankel's exploits he would have beaten STS by a distance, IMO
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In basic mathematical terms.
Amongst his victories ... FRANKEL .... Beat a horse rated 125 (at the time) by 11 lengths a 122 (at the time) by 7 lengths - and previously by 6 lengths. SEA THE STARS ... Beat the 'always running on the spot' YOUMZAIN - who could never be rated above 124 - by 2 lengths in the Arc (admittedly comfortably - but so were Frankel's successes) Previously - Sea The Stars beat a 126 horse - who turned out to be a Stayer - by a comfortable 2 and a half strengths. At two pounds per lengths - therein lies the answer. -------------- Obviously, there is more to it that that - and those are just the main examples - But, that is the basis upon which your (mathematical) question can only be answered. |
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Sea The Stars proved his versatility and class by winning top class races from a mile to a mile and a half. very few horses can do this at the highest level. but he only tended to do enough whereas Frankel trounced his rivals at the top level. with Frankel, i always felt that I was witnessing a freak, whereas I never got that impression about STS, despite his evident class
but of course, it is never easy to compare horses that never ran against each other. both were undoubtedly the best of their crop and we can't ask much more than that |
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STS would have not got within 3 lengths of the great frankel over a mile or a mile and a quarter..massive class gap between the two,frankel was just a far better horse
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Sea the Stars was sheer class who only had to give 90% to win his races and never needed to be extended....if he was an english horse his rating would have been far higher
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but he would never ever have beaten frankel,thats the point , over a mile he would have been thrashed
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Six group ones six months in a row , over 1m 1m2f and 1m 4f ...what an animal !
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Best moment in 40 years of racing was seeing Frankels 2000gns when he was lobbing along 15l clear and everyone suddenly starts rowing away behind realising he ain`t coming back.
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It beggars belief that, in this day and age, with international racing and all, that a trainer/owner can have the 'best' horse the world has ever seen, yet were too scared to race it outside of England
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Just to clarify, I do not deny for one second that Frankel is the greatest racehorse the world has ever seen. However, I do feel as though the public were robbed of seeing him compete at an international level because connections were too concerned with safeguarding his unbeaten record/stud fee.
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frankels 2000g victory will live with me forever
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kemoh, he should and would have won a derby if campaigned that way
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Frankel was a wonderhorse.
His guineas win was amazing, the field he faced...? worst guineas in history? Somewhat biased here as STS is my fav horse, his race record is better than Frankels, Frankel did not face all comers over all distances and did not win the worlds best turf races, STS did. STS times are better than Frankels in all respective races also. over a mile Frankel,anything further i think STS would win, personal opinion. Nothing can be said for certain. |
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shouldve won the derby...didnt because he was a doubtful stayer, when assessing a race horse this has to be taken in to account when comparing his greatness to other horses.
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@KeMoH -- Just to clarify, I do not deny for one second that Frankel is the greatest racehorse the world has ever seen. However, I do feel as though the public were robbed of seeing him compete at an international level because connections were too concerned with safeguarding his unbeaten record/stud fee.
Yes and no. Henry Cecil barely knew abroad existed, let alone they had racing there. It is true that connections were unadventurous in terms of distance, though. Perhaps with a jockey better able to settle him, Frankel might have stayed further. |
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Frankel over a mile or ten furlongs and STS over further imo but a rather pointless argument as nobody will ever know.
Personally I think Dancing Brave would have done the pair of em over a mile and a half, providing Greville wasn't in the plate, but again we will never know. |
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just this season alone we have seen how hard it is to remain unbeaten kingman,australia and treve been beaten 6 times between them this season alone but still all very good horses,frankel in 3 seasons never got beaten the fact he never ran abroad is irrelevant.besides frankel of all the great horses of the last 40 years only golden fleece remained unbeaten but he was never seen again after Epsom.
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Great post ilikewavingatbuses
You got it in a nutshell , Sea the Stars won "The Arc" and "The Derby" Won 6 Grp 1's 6 months in a row over various distances, the races just fall off the tongue, as well as about, The Eclipse, Irish Champion Stakes ... He was one of the best for me. No doubting Frankel also as a great horse |
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The comparison of each generation is a matter of opinion which causes great debate. I feel a horse can only be deemed as great if he has a comparable adversary ie Brigadier Gerard v Mill Reef, Arkle v Mill House. The four were in my view genuine greats in there own sphere, unfortunately for Mill Reef and Mill House they were born at the same time. Frankel had no such adversary.
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Personally i thought that the most impressive run from Frankel was in the International at York over 10.5f furlongs. Most point to the Queen Anne as his most impressive but Excelebration finished broken, yes but only a neck in front of a 113 horse.
In the International at York we witnessed Frankel could do it over further and that form looked superior in depth. |
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Far less between the greats than the figures suggest,the formlines suggest this also,they are all great but Frankel was consistent,more consistent than most,Sea The Stars underated over the mile,and brilliant in his own right. The figures are just figures,the question remains could you ever see Frankel giving the like of Sea The Stars 7+lb over a mile 10f?(I just can't)
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I could see it being a head bobber metro, on the Sea The Stars form line could we envisage Frankel giving Fame And Glory a 14lb over 10f?
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Angel Gabrial,
The York run was questionable ,I thought they went too quick,and Bullet Train finshed close enough,so suggesting some underperformed?, but plenty of opposite views!  |
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Imo judging horses by whether they remain unbeaten is part of the problem -- we all do it, but it is wrong and detracts from looking at horses' best performances. Frankel lives in the memory because of the way turned the 2,000 Guineas into a rout and saw off Canford Cliffs in the Sussex Stakes and beat Cirrus Des Aigles in the Champion, and that would remain true even if he'd been beaten at Epsom.
We sneer at new punters who pick their bets by looking at a string of 1s by the name in the paper without regard to the quality of the selection's wins, but really that is all we (and the bloodstock millionaires and billionaires) are doing when venerating the unbeaten. |
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It's so hard to find the truth, when Sea The stars won what looked before and after a weakish renewal of the guineas,he did beat Cityscape 23L, now obviously we question Cityscapes run that day,but you know he got a lot closer to the Frankel generation?
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Metro John
The York run was questionable ,I thought they went too quick,and Bullet Train finshed close enough,so suggesting some underperformed?, but plenty of opposite views!Wink Bullet train was actually settled in 3rd place in the International and not needed to set the pace as the two AOB pacemakers blazed a trail, Bullet Train was able to his race for the first time but was still beaten 13.5L. No closer than normal. So it actually suggests the form of the race is not questionable at all. |
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frankel v sea the stars in the guineas
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMvmAsRmwqo |
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In my view Frankel would have beaten Sea The Stars regardless of trip or anything else.
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When there is weakness in opposistion we witness wide margin winners,Frankel achieved his ratings by wining wide margins,other generations may have had more inform competition? we can never prove this,but a great talking point.
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"It beggars belief that, in this day and age, with international racing and all, that a trainer/owner can have the 'best' horse the world has ever seen, yet were too scared to race it outside of England"
you have to remember that the trainer was near death and international travel wouldn't have been advisable for him, so frankel's owner decided to keep the horse racing in this country where his trainer could be there to see him run. I thought it was an amazing gesture by the owner to bypass the arc for the sake of his friend and trainer. |
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Angel Gabrial,
my point was the rest of the field went quick enough,Bullet Train was a pacemaker for Frankel,after the york race in isolation you would have thought Bullet Train capable of beating plenty of those in that race if they were to meet again? But you see Bullet Train was never a great horse was he? |
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my point was the rest of the field went quick enough
No John The 2 AOB pacemakers went off too quick, not the rest of the field. All the form stacks up John. No idea what your point is now. Bullet Train of course was not a great horse which is why he was rated 113 and beaten 13.5L easily. |
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When there is weakness in opposistion we witness wide margin winners,Frankel achieved his ratings by wining wide margins,other generations may have had more inform competition? we can never prove this,but a great talking point
But Frankel took on the previous generation. Did you see what he did to Canford Cliffs? and don`t tell me that form doesn`t stack up! |
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I agree with you Angel Gabriel - York run was his best for me too. There was the briefest of moments as they came inside the 3 where he just sat in behind St Nicholas Abbey who was still going well at that point and I thought "He might have to battle here" and then in a heartbeat he put the race to bed. Being there that day was something i'll never ever forget.
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When you're the best the others come to you and to say Frankel wasn't campaigned internationally might be the case regarding going overseas to face international opposition but he still beat horses either from or previously from Australia, obviously Britain, France, Ireland, Germany, Japan and probably others I can't recall off the top of my head.
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Yes, but it would have been a sight to behold to see what Frankel would have done to Wise Dan.
The Yanks would have been lost for words. |
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If Bullet Train had been ridden differently that day he could have finished much closer to SNA, so the question is do you think SNA was in best form?
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When there is weakness in opposistion we witness wide margin winners,Frankel achieved his ratings by wining wide margins,other generations may have had more inform competition? we can never prove this,but a great talking point.
Or when the winner is just truly exceptional. Frankel was inimitable - there is very little you can compare him with to say it was the result of weakness in the opposition. |
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The Yanks would have been lost for words.
Indeed. There seems to have been this slight myth built up amongst some that because he never went abroad, the rest of the world never really thought much of him. I was at the Breeders Cup in 2012 and I spent a good few hours at morning workouts at the track the day before racing. Every single American I got talking to, once they realised I was British, asked the same question - had I ever been to see Frankel race. |