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Why was Frankel rated so much higher than Sea The Stars?
Why was Frankel rated so much higher than Sea The Stars?
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Bullet Train was beat 3f out in the Workforce Derby,eased but beat 38L,he did not stay a yard,so how come he raced so close to the pace in the frankel years? Some say he was improved(this could be true?) but then again why did they not bother too take a few races with this fella?
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If Bullet Train had been ridden differently that day he could have finished much closer to SNA, so the question is do you think SNA was in best form?
What you talking about John, if Bullet Train was trained to run on it`s merit, switch off and settle in midfield it would have been rated higher than it`s pacemaker role. However at York it was given half a chance to run on merit as it was clearly obvious Robin Hood and Windsor Place where doing a job. The 8th furlong in the International was also easily the quickest of the race, you know when Frankel quickened it up and breezed home. So much for the `going off too quick` nonsense. Are you following  |
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Workforce was beat 17L by the great Harbinger in the KG,before that he had won the Derby and after that he won the Arc,no trouble in running in the KG,and he had won the Derby on quick ground,so a literal reading would put Bullet Train 56 L behind Harbinger being eased 3f out because he was a spent force9or injured?) who cares thats what the form says,and bullet train only beaten between 13-17L by Frankel having been used has a pace maker
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outpost 955
what a good post  |
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John you will be telling us Hot Prospect was a better horse than Frankel next.
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All I can say is that direct formlines of the horses who stayed in training and raced against Frankel later could suggest,that he was champion in a poor year?
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Cityscape and Bullet Train,or the most improved? I weill leave you too work this one out
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It's a cliche no doubt but you can only beat the opposition you face and although Frankel beat some also rans, there are some very good horses in this list and winners of some top class races. If you then branch it out for example with horses like Canford Cliffs having beaten Goldikova and so on then there are top class linked form lines too.
http://frankel.juddmonte.com/race-career/horses-beaten.aspx On another note, the mid boggles if anything thinks Workforce's runs in both KGs were the horse's true form. If a horse wins a Derby and an Arc in the same season but fails to make the frame and is beaten out of site in a KG by all but its 100/1 pacemaker then I'd tend to say the KG run was the anomaly and especially if you consider where Youmzain finished in relation to Workforce in the KG and then the Arc. |
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Canford Cliffs stayed in training John, until Frankel broke him.
So there you have Goldikova form, Rip Van Winkle form( which takes in Sea The Stars form)...It`s there John. Cirrus Des Aigles, St Nicholas Abbey and so the form lines begin to unravel John. |
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bit like saying rooney is better than messie
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metro john has an interesting take on handicapping
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^ watchit
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The Frankel run in the guineas was revealing and probably one of his best,he started vey short odds on on every race run later,I think it is safe to say we saw some weakness in beating the same race horses?, CDA was the best horse he ran against and the small distance he beat that rival says much.
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Sea The Moon this year put up the best display for me in the German Derby,Lucky lion beat out of site,who later beat Noble mission,just a pity the trainer gave orders for a career ending tactical nonsense in that race,running style probably assured his carreer put short ,a talent that will never be embraced by many.
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CDA was the best horse he ran against and the small distance he beat that rival says much.
Arguably his weakest run of his 4yo career, run on soft ground which was to the advantage of the runner up. |
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Not at all Dr gonzo,CDA has carried all before him, before and since,frankel was great,but not by the margin some people imagine.
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Would he have given 5 lb too CDA that day(I think not)
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People go on about versatility over different distances as the hallmark of a great horse. Well Frankel kept coming out time and time again with great performances. People go on about him not facing great opposition (nonsense btw) but the physical demands of the way Frankel ran were always the same. What set him apart was that ability to put in a very quick furlong from 3 out to 2 out and to keep going after it. Despite the distances he won by he very rarely had an actual easy race physically. The 2nd Sussex was probably the only race that came close to it.
Not many horses would have did what he did in the Guineas and SJP and come back as the same horse. |
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Frankel was a fantastic miler,that is his best visual form,I think he could have won a Derby and maybe an Arc.
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And no doubt CDA ran its worst race ever just like every horse that frankel ran against did(well thats what the frankel haters tell us). Personally I think Frankel would of beat STS even though it was one of my favs. The problem is Frankel could only beat what's in front of him abit like when Usain Bolt runs in the first heat of the olympics; only wins by a few yards in a slow time but your eye doesn't lie to you, you just know when better oppostion turns up he will blow them away.
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Lady carla,
I think you draw the wrong conclusion if you believe I hate frankel(just the opposite) ,but I do love past champions,WE shall remember them! |
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When horses plant themselves in the stalls they have that extra distance to make up John. That would give Frankel 5L over CDA, even on soft ground.
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Metro john yes Frankel would have given 5 pounds to CDA that day had he needed to. That day it was about winning the race however it needed to be done. It was ground Cirrus loves and Frankel wasn't enjoying yet he picked Cirrus up with ease when he was asked to do so. Yes he had to battle but that's what Cirrus makes horses do when he's at his best. Just ask Treve.
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now your talking nonsense,it was not that bad!
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Not at all Dr gonzo,CDA has carried all before him, before and since,frankel was great,but not by the margin some people imagine.
When I said 'weakest run' I was referring to Frankel's performance, not the race itself. |
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CDA best official rating increased too 131 from 130 for finishing second too Frankel beaten just 1.75 L
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Frankel would probably have beaten CDA by farther had Queally let him go earlier but it's understandable that he didn't considering the ground.
CDA was already being ridden and had built up momentum for a while to get to his top speed when Frankel was still swinging on the bridle and wasn't asked to go and win his race until the 1f pole and in that kind of ground you won't always get instant acceleration, as it might take more ground covered to get into top gear, compared to if you kick with 2f to go that you have more racing ground left to put distance between your rivals when kicking on. |
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CDA best official rating increased too 131 from 130 for finishing second too Frankel beaten just 1.75 L
Forgive me, but i'm struggling to follow what your argument actually is here. Are you saying that Frankel's performance that day was his best, or equal to his previous best? |
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John started of by suggesting the York International was suspect form now he is bagging all of Frankels form.
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All I am saying is that you can't rate Frankel better than 135 over 10f furlong? if you believe CDA was the best horse frankel ran against, which I do. The mile form on a different level.
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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/racing/article-2191614/Frankel-good-Brigadier-Gerard--Joe-Mercer.html
We shall remember them! |
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Fozwold,
you must be taking the piss if you think Sea The stars could be beat 4 l by frankel over 10f? |
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foxy 22 Oct 14 08:47 Joined: 26 Dec 00 | Topic/replies: 1,734 | Blogger: foxy's blog just this season alone we have seen how hard it is to remain unbeaten kingman,australia and treve been beaten 6 times between them this season alone but still all very good horses,frankel in 3 seasons never got beaten the fact he never ran abroad is irrelevant.besides frankel of all the great horses of the last 40 years only golden fleece remained unbeaten but he was never seen again after Epsom. Foxy would u consider the fact that the decisions of Frankels connections had apart to play in him being unbeaten? What u say is right, its extremely hard to remain unbeaten as invariably something catches u out eventually, ground , distance, didnt stay, over racing. The horses over the past 40 years were actually challanged by their connections, the majority of them with the ability Frankel was showing would have been lining up in the Derby, Cecil didnt take any chances, no risks.I mean the horse never saw 10f until his penultimate start as a FOUR yr old, this is just a remarkable thing. U can say his connections didnt think he'd stay, wanted him to be stronger etc etc but how many times have connections been faced with these problems but they of course still run the horse in the most prestigious race. This was not the case with Frankel and history will always say so, which is a sad thing for all of us. Obv if Frankel had run in the Derby after the guineas he'd have stood a much greater chance of not staying unbeaten and its decisions like this that exposed the 'other greats' over the past 40 years, theie connections were so ambitious and so they should be, too much so, take Nijinsky who is arguably the greatest of them all imo, running in the champion after the arc which was a bad decision but thats how much connections wanted to win. Frankel raced many of the same horses throughout his 2 yr old career, excellebration again and again, who was a v good horse no question but without looking i think he faced him 4 times as a 3 yr old over the same bloody distance, pointless. The thing is too, u can say who he beat over the 10f but he was a 4 year old,he would not have been allowed to face such horses as a 3 yr old over these distances for fear of getting beaten, Cecil literally waited until the 11th hour to 'test' him. how would he have fared in the Derby over 10f against older horses at 3, then go to the arc if proven himself, how would he have got on there? These are some of the reasons he remained unbeaten, I believe he'd have been beaten at 3 by someone had he had a rigorous campaign but we'll never know. Also Zarkava remained unbeaten who i would regard as one of the greats, better than Treve imo. Frankel deserves a higher rating than STS also imo due to the manner of his victories, spectacular, I believe he could have won the guineas by 10L had he actually been held up funnily enough but i wouldnt have changed the way it happened for a min. He was a great horse, i would never question his ability and I would rate him as the best miler Ive seen but as a complete racehorse I think STS was better. |
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If STS had done what Frankel did in his guineas he would of been tailed off.
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Nearly forgot my blood pressure tablets until I read this lady carla
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Excuse me fozwald but STS made the journey too the unknown(12f),Frankel never did.
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Some people on here may feel I believe one champion better than another,well that is not the case, but I do belive frankel had the kid glove treatment,the cotton wool kid,the term the yanks used i believe.
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And what about his 1st race unplaced, didn't like a battle, Frankel would of looked him in the eye and there would of been horse sh*t all over the racecourse
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Frankel made the journey to the unknown (4yo season), Sea The Stars never did.
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let's get metaphysical - http://youtu.be/nxZNZpDNfYI
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