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Was Frankel the best ever horse (so far) in your opinion ?!
Was Frankel the best ever horse (so far) in your opinion ?!
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Replies: 186
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Can somebody post a link to all his records so I can put a poster up in my office and stare at it daily with amazement?
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BJT post a link or even a page that shows Black Caviar breaking even an Aussie track record?
At least the UK forum is objective,you had the best AOB had ever trained and a Mare in a spacesuit that was no more than a decent handicapper in world terms? AOB is more full of shyte than an Aussie barman,Black Caviar more class than both the aforementioned.............because she cant speak for herself and does not wear sunglasees. Frankel.......ditto..............he could only beat what took him on............and thrashed them.......in the same fashion as those Poms thrash you on every appearance.  |
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Frankel was an overrated horse that never did anything special.
Oh dear, the Aussie heatwave is having a bigger effect on people than shown on TV news |
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Good morning Andrew In Sweden,hope you well,my intention is not to knock Frankel(That would be Foolish)His race record from 2yrs his outstanding.
and deserves the full marks whatever they may be,but i believe such inflated ratings on a performance basis(Queen Anne) must be questioned,Yes the distance of victory was fantastic ,but the competitive nature of the race? Excelebration it is generally excepted he did not run his race,So Windsor palace and others are what is left as a guide to those behind. The race lacked quality(except frankel) and that is why he was such a short price. |
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GT Mole,you can't break course records on gd soft ground(can you?)
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Frankel supreme. Ostriches -many.
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Here is one fast ground performance of Note,Harbinger winning the King George against inform horses(except maybe workforce)
http://youtu.be/mo7pEsp2WKc Note the commentary as jim explains the class in the race,he has raced past the Derby winner ,passed the irish derby winner etc. If frankel would have beat Harbinger on this day on this going my dicks a bloater. |
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Frankel and time.
Frankel ran on good or faster going 9 times out of the 14 times he ran and usually had a pacemaker to ensure the pace was good. In the 2000 Guineas on good to firm going he made his own running and ran as fast as he could. Yet still on time he was the 8th fastest in the last 10 years and the 13th fastest in the last 20 years. The closest he ever got was 5th fastest in the last 10 years in the Greenham and the Sussex. This is supposed to be the greatest horse ever ffs. Compare that with Secretariat who still holds the course records for the Kentucky Derby, Preakness and Belmont Stakes. That is what a champion does. Brigadier Gerard broke 3 course records and Mill Reef broke 3 course records as well. Champions not an illusion backed up with hype to the hilt. Like I said before he was born lucky. |
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Before Frankel, Sea Bird II was most people's idea of the greatest TURF racehorse they had ever seen and that opinion was primarily based on the way he won and beat- no demolished- a whole bunch of top-class horses in the Arc.
There are three criteria in that statement which are essential, imo, for assessing other horses with claims to greatness- manner of win, race stature and competitiveness.(Note, rating does not come into it.) I am uneasy with Frankel's position as the "greatest ever" because whilst he undoubtedly was a great horse, and certainly smashed his opposition, I do not consider that the races which he won can be described as "the very best races in the world" or the most "competitive", reasons for which have been thoroughly discussed on various threads. The collateral rating methodology used by the official handicappers and TF is not without its flaws, some serious, primarily because it is one-dimensional. The compilers almost certainly are not players otherwise they would understand that point. Thankfully, the weight placed on official/TF ratings in the market allows others to exploit the situation to their advantage. |
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The clock tells the story.This one's form,that one's form,supposedly weak opposition,not enough group 1 performers etc.The list is endless.
Obviously many want to devalue Frankel,and didn't fully enjoy his demolition jobs.That's life!!! At least I was fortunate to see him in action,leaving me with wonderful memories that no arguments can devalue. |
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I agree with almost everything there Sandown. TF and the BHA handicappers are OK with ordinary horses but they cannot handicap class, courage or cowardice. It is beyond their sliderules. Some horses have so much courage they refuse to be beaten no matter how much weight they carry like Arkle and Desert Orchid. And some, like Kildimo, no matter what weight they carry they jusy refuse to win. And you cannot handicap 'class'. It is an unkown seen rarely. They try but invariably fail.
When Arkle ran against Mill House the weight difference grew and grew and so did the winning distances. |
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metro john
Re Harbinger's K. George The rating given to Harbinger for his win that day was grossly over the top, imo, and the topic was discussed at great length on the Antepost forum. From a time perspective, one has to rate Harbinger's performance against that of Yashrid who also won over 12f later in the day. Yashrid's official rating was 82 and he ran the 12f in 152.19 secs . The RP TS rating given was 91, almost certainly too much.The horse had 4 more runs afterwards, beaten a total of some 134 lengths off ratings of 86 and 80. This performance must anchor the allowances used to rate the KG run. Assuming the TS rating of 91 for Yashrid then Harbinger final time performance can't be rated higher than 119. If one assumes that Yashrid ran only to his 82 rating then Harbinger's rating must be 9lbs lower at 110. Assessments of over 140 were way too high. |
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My view of the Harbinger KG is that they went off too fast and the pace collapsed earlier than normal thus flattering his winning distance as his opponents tired worse than he did. Yashrid's race was closer to even paced for the class so comparisons time-wise of the two races is futile.
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brigust
If you compare the RP's topspeed since 2000 (I haven't bothered to go back any further) you will see that their figure for Frankel is 132 and is the highest. Kings Best is second in 2000 with 129 followed by Cockney Rebel (2007) with 125 and Sea The Stars with 123. Last of these is Footsteps... with 99. Now Footsteps... also ran with similarly described ground as Frankel but his time is over 1 second faster than Frankel. Without comparing the overall times of all the races on the day (and even then it is not an exact science) it is not possible to make time comparisons over different years. |
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surely if frankels the best racehorse of all time theyd have made more use of him wouldnt they? theyd have run him over 12f or taken him to run in a big field group 1 in japan or the breeders cup (taken all the cash on offer). the only thing we know for certain is theyve got a massive stud fee whilst taking minimal risk job done!
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or taken him to run in a big field group 1 in japan or the breeders cup (taken all the cash on offer)
Yes, i'm sure Khalid Abdullah is well in need of the money. |
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Yashrid's race was closer to even paced for the class so comparisons time-wise of the two races is futile.
For that reason my conclusion is the exact opposite to "futile." |
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Sawyer, I am not a time person. I don't believe times are reliable on their own especially in Group races as opposed to handicaps. However much has been said about Frankel and his speed so you would have thought he would have achieved at least average time once in his 14 starts.
After all I am not saying he should break course records but when comparing him with other winners of the 'same' race you would expect when the going is right, the pace is right and he runs right through the line he should be putting up a good time. He doesn't. That has to be a worry. We haven't any direct form to go on which is a pity and the horses he beat were obviosly below standard or the left overs after others retired so time is just about all we have left. |
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Sandown i am not a fan of the clock,pace interests me, but they did not go too quick in Harbingers King george,Harbinger loved it fast and i tell you know there was quality behind, Workforce later won the Arc and Cape blanco later won three group1s in america.Just watch the video and you can see Cape blanko beat with 3furlong to run ,they all were,it was a well balanced performance and the margin coould have been bigger,on ratings i would settle at 133p below that of Frankel in the queen anne 134- 135 by my ratings (not time) The difference for me is the quality of horse behind,yes most may have prefered softer ground in Harbingers King george,but in Frankels queen Anne they were barely listed class(except Excelebration who wants deep ground) behind so therefor easier to beat.
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However much has been said about Frankel and his speed so you would have thought he would have achieved at least average time once in his 14 starts.
He did. |
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well dr gonzo if mr abdullah doesnt need the money even more reason to take him out of his comfort zone and travel the world proving beyond doubt hes the best with no need to protect tis stud fee.
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Bullet train beaten 38 lenths eased behind Workforce on fast ground in the Derby,was beaten 16 lenths in the Queen Anne and just 14.4 lenths in the quipco at ascot,what was his trip? what was his ground? i dont think he stayed 12f and maybe did not like fast ground. The picture not so clear concerning ratings and distances,so why side on the high side of ratings?
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Cant help thinking this rating (and the devalue of past champs) has thrown the Derby and all other 1m 4f+ classics and Grade 1's into second rate races. They have been on the decline in recent years anyway, but this will probably entice the very top breeders to strive for classic product in the 8-10 furlong ONLY bracket. All things evolve, but this rating, indirectly, is highlighting a major shift in redefining what the classic thouroughbreds' optimum race distance should be.
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brigust
According to the RP he has run the fastest 2000G this century (and probably since their TS records began) after adjusting for conditions on the day. I have not looked back through all of the Judmonte figures but his was 136 and Sea The Stars 132. I am willing to guess that nothing has got within 8-10lbs of either in the last 15 years. I am not sure "time wise" what he was supposed to do. |
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When discussing the issue of "greatest ever" and "time" the debate must include performances beyond Europe and not just Turf.
The performance by Secretariat in winning the Belmont Stakes in 1973 over 12f had to be seen to be believed. Watch the feature film "Secretariat" or watch on youtube. The horse clocked 69.8 for the first 6f and 74.2 for the second 6f, finishing in 144.0 for 12f for an average 12.0 secs per furlong. And that is without having a horse to race against for the last 6f as he won by 30l. Anyone who knows anything about time will find that barely credible. Secretariat has a decent claim to being called "the greatest" at least in the modern era. |
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Frankel cannot be called the greatest ever because he was campaigned too conservatively.
It is pointless putting Secretariat up as the greatest as he would have been on drugs. In the same way as Lance Armstrong will never be spoken of as a great cyclist. |
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For those who may be interested, Andy Beyer calculated that if his ratings had been applied at the time he would have given Secretariat of 139.
For conversion purposes, the chef-de-race site http://www.chef-de-race.com/pfs/comparative_speed_figs.htm calculates a Beyer figure of 130 equating to a TF figure of 139. Look at the table and you will see that 139 is off the chart but using the table you would say the TF equivalent for 139 would be c 150. That to emphasise is a rating of 3lbs more than TF have given to Frankel. |
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you would of raced frankel 147 allover the world to prove what? his racing career was managed to perfection.
will always be the greatest in my mind until another great comes along. henry cecil a great trainer. |
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It is pointless putting Secretariat up as the greatest as he would have been on drugs.
That is an ASSUMPTION with no evidence to go on. The owner, Mrs Chenery, was against the use of performance enhancing drugs. Nothing to that effect post-mortem was found to support drugs use. The horse was found to have a super-naturally enlarged heart, however. |
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as great Secretariat's time is, and I think I'm right in saying it's still an all time 1m 4f world record for a racehorse, I will predict that it will be broken in the arc (ok, it's 14m shorter)within a decade ... Danedream was only 0.49 secs short in her year and the decadal average winning times are dropping consistently
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Sentimentality has certainly played a part in the Frankel ratings saga,
I wonder if he'd been idolized in the same way had he have been trained by Aidan O'Brien or Michael Stoute ! |
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He'd have been campaigned better!
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grendel
I'm sure that you right about that, but we are looking at this 40 years on. It's not just the about the horse, but training methods and course management as well. All the same, Danedream was rated at around 128 for that performance, 21 lb behind the possible rating for Secretariat, so some way to go on that basis. |
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training methods and course management would garner improvements both side of the atlantic if significant but unlike european top races lowering the decadal averages the top USA races have their decadal averages pretty much been stationary for the last 40 years. I think the use of drugs in american thoroughbreds has hindered evolutionary improvements and the standout breeding lines of Northern Dancer, Saddler's Wells and Galileo on turf have improved the european thoroughbred immensely .. so much so that flat breds have crossed over into National Hunt racing now that speed has overcompensated for robustness, but at a cost as we have witnesses in recent years in the National ... and the standout sire for Aintree National fences races is Old Vic.
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mention of Old Vic reminds me of how he was rated superior to Generous and I suppose Henry Cecil being the trainer didn't add a bit of sentimentality there either
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In my time in racing (from a serious point of view) early 1980s.
Frankel is the best horse of my time, Dancing Brave would be next on my list. In Frankel`s case, he was by a wide margin the best at 2,3 & 4 (yrs old) not 2 many of the best of the best can boast that record. A SUPERSTAR in my book, and trained by 1 as well (Sir Henry) my racing hero.  |
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Grendel how come the average times for the Kentucky Derby, Preakness and Belmont Stakes for the 70's are faster than for the 2000's? And I've excluded Secretariats 3 records because that would make the average even greater.
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And Grendel you often refer to the Arc. Can you tell me then why in the last 10 years the time difference is such that the horses in the last 10 years are winning by an average of 22 lengths more, in time, than the horses in the previous 10 years and yet those horses from the previous 10 years are only 3 lengths on average better than the 10 years before that. I suggest Longchamp's course improvemant to drainage is having the desired effect on times, don't you?
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