I honestly don't think many, if any, of the other horses mentioned in this thread would have got him off the bridle if they had met...

In my opinion (for what it's worth) the best miler of all time. Over 10f, possibly the best with only 2 races to go on, one of them on totally unsuitable ground (the great BG almost got beat in a couple of races on heavy ground). The arguments will obviously continue forever without resolve, but i'm just thankful I was lucky enough to see him race 4 times, including the QA and Champion; wonderful memories.

As ever nothing to be gained from these discussions/arguments, each person has their own view and that should be respected.
No amount of facts/times/distance beaten, proves anything as it is impossible to compare horses from different era's and attain an answer that satisfies all.
As with the horses, those who express views all originate from different era's and what one person has seen with their own eyes in the majority of cases will always dictate how they rate the greats irrespective of what timeform or any other organisation says, there is and will never be a definitive answer that appeases all and sundry, regardless of how long is spent discussing it.

People should just be grateful they witnessed a wonderful horse as have other generations of people for other great horses for well over two hundred years, its really irrelevant who is better, if you enjoy your racing you have been treated to a great spectacle, all we can all hope for is that we see his like again before we are all  dead & buried.

The 2 miler was run 13 seconds above standard, the mile and a half race was run 7 seconds over standard and the Champion Stakes was 4 seconds over standard. Irish horses with deep ground form were winning all over the gaff.

That tells you all you need to know about the ground that day.

Marcce I haven't trusted the results at Ascot since they re-developed, some have been really wierd. Looking at the times before they changed you have Selhurstpark Flyer winning the Wokingham on good to soft in 1m 15.57.  You have Maarek on Champions Day winning in 1m 15.99 on soft ground. And you have Tomba winning the Diamond Jubilee in 1m 16.99 on soft ground. It's only a small sample but the going on Champions Day certainly looks nearer good to soft than soft on the straight course. And with Frankel that is where the race began.

You can't just ignore the fact they raced for 7 and a half furlongs on ground that was considerably softer than it was up the home straight.

What happens in the early and middle stages (pace, conditions etc) contributes to what you see at the finish.

As far as I can remember there wasn't a single sub 12 second furlong in the Champion Stakes and the last 3 furlongs were clocked a tick under 37 seconds. By comparison So You Think clocked somewhere around 35.2 seconds for the last 3 furlongs of the same course at Royal Ascot on ground described as good.

Whatever the state of the going up the straight the majority of that race was run on very deep ground.

No. Frankel beat Excelebration, Farhh, Bullet Train. In fourteen races he beat standard time three times. He never raced abroad.  The average number of horses he raced against was just over seven. When he came up against a good standard, Cirrus Des Aigles, he won but not by much.  Then there is the Henry Cecil angle.
Sea-Bird for me.

Marcce how do you know he wasn't better on soft ground? He beat Nathaniel further than the time they met before.

Having seen all his races does anyone really seriously think he was better on the kind of ground he encountered at Ascot?

And does anyone really regard first time out form as concrete?

I was fortunate to be at Nrwmarket for his 2,000gns win,and in my lifetime I have never seen a flat race performance like it.
Regardless of how hot,or not,the opposition was,it was an absolutely incredible Group 1 performance,which will stick in my mind forever.
Yes ,I did see Shergar,Nijinsky,and many other greats,but this was the business.

unbiased

you make the point that in your lifetime you never saw a better flat race performance than the 2,000 guineas,in my lifetime i have never seen a better performance than frankels performance in the queen anne,i am sure somebody might say the best they have seen was the ease in which he won the judmonte.add to those 3 races the 2011 sussex stakes ,the royal lodge and the lockinge this horse put up 6 outstanding performances no other horse ever did that.

Stick to Greyhounds roadrunner.

Expressed my views earlier in the thread about secretariat and frankel, but the best visual performance i have witnessed was a certain horse in the breeders cup juvenile, just breathtaking ,mickey rooney eat your heart out.

Last year was the most shameful year for the OFFICIAL handicapper and TIMEFORM not to forget the TRADE paper.Only a few on here challenged the whole shameful shenanigans and up to a point have been proved right.

I would love any of the above to challenge this forum in a Court and provide evidence that they never read,cogitated and discussed what was said on here in logical and reasonably and fairly debated over many weeks,months and hours.

So much so that this forum made them have a close and serious look at themselves and the ghosts of the past.And yet like (allegedly) Charlie and Rebecca,thought that ditching hard drives etc would hide the evidence?

The best horse Frankel beat was Cirrus des Aigles. A 6 year old gelding who has won 3 Group 1's in 43 starts. And only after the horses that used to beat him retired. The only way CDA would ever have been rated the 2nd best horse around is if the others are very poor. And Frankel was all out to beat him by 1 1/2 lengths ffs.
The whole fabric of the horses he beat are really suspect and that should not be the case. With Timeform ratings Excelebration (133), Farhh (128) and CDA (135), come on.

Especially when you look at Sea Bird 11 beating multiple Gr1 and easy French Derby winner Reliance rated 137 by much, much further than 1 1/2 lengths, with a multiple Group 1 winner 5 lengths away, then an Oaks winner and a KIng George and Derby winner up to 18 lengths away. And then you get Brigadier Gerard beating Mill Reef, Derby winner, Eclipse, King Georger, Arc, Ganay and Coronation Cup and rated 141 by 3 lengths. Frankel was just born lucky.

And when you look closely at the Queen Anne clearly Excelebration never ran to form, Timeform agrees, because the 4th horse Indomito has since been beaten 10 lengths twice by Excelebration. Neither Side Glance nor Indomito has won a race since. Side Glances best win was against Dance and Dance who has only won a conditions race and Indomito's best win was a Listed race in Germany winning in a photgraph against the current winner of a novise hurdle at Musselborough.

The form stinks.

As you know Brig,I was and still am a big fan of Frankel........still believe he would have destroyed the "other" best ever without breaking sweat aka Black Caviar.

However I am confident.........VERY CONFIDENT that this forum got them,MADE them have a long hard look at themselves,TIMEFORM and the OFFICIAL handicappers.Not a single newspaper columnist in ANY newspaper WORLDWIDE including racing publications took the whole lot to task and 1.01 this forum can claim the re-visit.NAP

If you run a inform  A1 greyhound against A4 animals they win by big distances.

Sea The Stars was a heck of an A1 hound..........and that is where the Timeform and Handicappers go to hell in a handcart.

Arkle was yet another figment of Timeform and handicappers imagination , he raced against donkeys.The era was bereft of decent horses to take him on.

The only legend was made by the administration,no more,no less.