Ffs, yes it's a figure of speech meaning I rubbish those horses. Nowhere have I rubbished any of the greats from the past. I have merely pointed out that it's no good tediously compiling lists of races won, when it is the actual quality of those particular races that year that matters. Quality, however, is only something you want to debate when there's a chance of using it to deride the current crop. When I said Nashwan's actual beatings of Terimon, Opening Verse, Cacoethes don't amount to a great deal better (in the value of the form, not trophies won) than Excelbration's performances, you somehow interpret that as deriding a great horse. Weird.

Oh please, not the victim stance again, grow a pair.

RPR rating of Excelebrations QE2 victory is 131 .... fair rating?

To be honest i think the ratings have gone mad,and really i would not put too much faith in any of them that are related to Frankel's form.
Think timeform,the RP etc are as lost as the rest of us,seems that way to me.

yeh,it was impressive alright.very impressive.

just not sure the ratings are reliable with the horses that tie in.

you're right really bus, it's just conjecture

people should just enjoy it and when the next one comes along the debate will start again

The evidence of your own eyes should suffice,the best in my 42 years.

The debate is contested on one side by those who refuse to let go of the delusion that racing in their youth was far superior to what we experience today.  It's so entrenched that it wouldn't matter what performances we saw nowadays nothing in their eyes would touch their heroes from when they first started watching racing.  I held Dancing Brave in this regard for 25 years until Frankel came along and I had to concede that I had now seen better.  I cannot hold an opinion on pre 1986 and have no idea if Brigadier Gerard, Mill Reef, Sea Bird, Nijinsky etc fully justify their legendary status or not but it seems unlikely to me that racing would throw up 4 legends in the space of 7 years then everything since for 40 years (despite the superior breeding operations and larger horse population) was not of the quality of these horses.  You get the same blinkered bias from Beatles fans of that era.

Whatever,as long as we dont knock these champs,a healthy debates ok.

Wise Dan beat Cityscape when in receipt of 3lbs racing on firm ground at Woodbine a few runs ago.

Wise Dan was sat in 3rd on the rail about a length behind the 2 leaders ahead of him where they were racing upsides each other and Cityscape was about a length down on Wise Dan in 4th. As the joint leader on the rail began to weaken and the other joint leader began to kick on a split came for Wise Dan to go through off the final bend, whereas Cityscape had to go around the outside of the other 3 horses. All the way up the straight Cityscape was hanging and at his head c0cked to the side as if feeling the firm ground and was beaten 4¼L by Wise Dan.

Here's the race:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBUuCGB5XsA

Excelebration has beaten Cityscape 1¼L and 3L at level weights so I'd expect him to beat Wise Dan based on that and no hard luck stories either way.

I wouldn't take Frankel's run on Saturday at face value as apart from the ground, Cirrus Des Aigles was being ridden from before the 2f mark and Frankel was still on the bridle at the 1f pole and was only shaken up to go a length in front with half a furlong to go where he got one tap of the whip before winning by 1¾L. Nathaniel is a good yardstick and he was another 2½L back in 3rd and take CDA out and Frankel has beaten Nathaniel 4¼L or take Frankel out and CDA has beaten Nathaniel 2½L and both would be considered impressive performances.

If Queally had ridden Frankel at the 2f pole when Peslier started riding CDA then Frankel would have won by farther but because he held on to him for so long probably due to the trip and/or that ground, he barely had half a furlong to try to pull away from CDA before the line came.

Some of you guys on hear make me LOL. Excellebration will deserve the high rating he gets as he is an absolute freak an without Frankel around would have dominated the last 3 seasons. Time will show how good these horses are.

duncan idaho 23 Oct 12 10:38 Joined: 08 Mar 03 | Topic/replies: 12,018 | Blogger: duncan idaho's blog
the 4th in Frankel's maiden was turned over at Beverley next time and hasnt even run since.....yet people still call Frankel a great

Really are some dumb peeps on here. Injury perhaps? Or maybe just no good as in every maiden race half the field are useless. Couldn't make it up, seriously!

denathorn - think he was joking, surely?

Bigrust, I see your point, although I would argue the first 2 races of any horses career is simply an exercise in learning, not their true ability. You can only get a very rough guide on first and second runs. You can argue that the horse excelebration has beaten have not done great afterwards, however these races are grp1, grp2 in which he has been there and done the job. You cannot argue with the authority he has won, he can only beat what's in front of him. You look at the manner of those wins and see how good he is, his 2yo campaign being unbelievably impressive. He won on gf and on the snaff, this year the weather clearly has had an effect as the ground has been wet all year. He handles that well, but I can still remember how awesome his turn of foot was when racing on good-good to firm. The Breeders cup will be fast ground and I am 100% sure he will be seen to even better effect on that ground and I expect a big win. Then we can revisit this who did he beat malarkey.

I agree with most of that Den. My point is that the overall quality in depth is not there. Even considering there are now 60 more Group races (18 Group 1's) in the Britain and that does not include Ireland, Europe or elsewhere in the world. The opportunities for the beaten horses to go on are clearly there in multitudes yet they have failed to do so.

In Brigadier Gerard's day there was only one Group 1 race at a mile (excluding the 2000Gns) and that was the Sussex Stakes. At Royal Ascot the only Group 1 race was the Gold Cup. Look at it now. Had Frankel raced in those days he (like BG) would have had to carry a penalty or stepped up in trip.

So Frankel earned his timeform rating without the false adding on of penalties to what they have actually achieved, unlike Brigadier Gerard.  I'm sure Frankel could have achieved a higher Timeform rating had he had the chance to give his rivals a Group 1 winning penalty in small fields and produced the same performance.

I will treat that response with the contempt it deserves, Grendel. You should have a word with Figgis about handicapping. When he has finished dreaming about his auntie that is.

Still see you are doing your best to knock Excelebration and then Frankel by association brigust1.

I'm not even going to get into whether Cityscape or Elusive Kate ran their races because with Excelebration they were 1-2-3 in France and at Ascot they were 1-2-3 and Excelebration ran his race and that's all that really matters here. He had beaten them both previously so what more can he do and even if you want to put the bigger defeat margins down to others not running their race, he still would have beaten them regardless even if the margins had been smaller, bearing in mind he got no run until inside the final 2f when the others were already riding their finishes inside the 3f mark, he had to switch 2 horses wide and still sat and won on the bridle bar a couple of flicks of the whip and was then eased down before the line.

I'm not really sure what point you are making and why regarding Excelebration's first run as that's hardly the only thing he has done to measure him by is it?

No way either was Frankel coming to the end of his tether and he was another on the bridle until the final furlong, whereas CDA was being ridden from around 2f out and your one eyed view of things will say Peslier only gave CDA 4 backhanders, well how many did Queally give Frankel? Both jockeys realised that late on and on that kind of ground it probably made more sense to hold their horses together and push out hands and heels and so both did, with Peslier seemingly accepting 2nd when Frankel went by him and you can tell this from how inside the final furlong he pulled away from Nathaniel and yet the gap closed slightly again at the line. Frankel also pulled clear of Nathaniel late on which wouldn't have been the case had he been at the end of his tether.

Comparisons to the SJP are pointless as Frankel ran at sprinter pace for 4f that day and he stayed on the bridle on Saturday for 9f of the 10f and the ground was totally different on then too.

* own narrow

In fact, since 1985, only Dancing Brave’s 141 in the Arc of 1986 betters his figure and it has been openly stated that the level of the World Thoroughbred Rankings (or International Classifications as they were previously known) have dropped a few pounds since those days.

Taken from a Dominic Gardiner-Hill blog

http://www.britishhorseracing.com/goracing/blogs/viewarchive.asp?item=004569