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Will Excelebration be raised to 135?
Will Excelebration be raised to 135?
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Replies: 324
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Will put Mareek on 131 too? Top 10 horse...
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12Aug12
Dea 8GS 3y+ F(500K) 9-1[3/1] 4th of 11 1.63L behind Excelebration (IRE) T Jarnet Farhh 16Sep12 Lon 8GS G1 214K 9-2 2/4 (hd Moonlight Cloud 8-13) 11/8 Frankie Dettori Cityscape to go to 132 Which would put Wise Dan on 140-141..... We would have some of the best horses in the history of racing going around today. TODAY. Fancy that. What a lucky lot we are to have such fine animals all running around at the same time...  |
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Gets better. We would have Ron the Greek on 141 as well.
But the best horse in history? FLAT OUT (USA) after defeating 141 rated Ron the Greek by 12 lengths must be on a rating of 165..... And with that, I have put about as much thought into the ratings as happens with the ones most people on here blindly follow. |
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 Bullit Train a champion beat just 14.25lenths on heavy ground rated 113 |
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It's obvious when you guys, Duncan Idaho and Figgis, refuse to see the wood for trees when you resort to insults.
On RUK the Timeform rep said, when comparing Timeform with the BHA, that in 1986 there were 22 horses rated 125 and higher yet last year there was only 5 from the same countries (9 worldwide). You can insult me as much as you like but you cannot change the facts. Open your eyes. |
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Well said Brigust1
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Just 3.25 lenths behind Excelebration on saturdays formline
Henry maybe wont retire yet |
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i havent insulted you...i have merely commented accurately on your understanding of handicapping.
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Yes, perhaps you are right DI, insult is the wrong word, but let's say deriding the individual rather than the facts.
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brigust1 • October 21, 2012 7:31 PM BST
Ah so we are assuming if one horse didn't run then the result would still be the same? Works for me. Dont agree Brig Clear to anyone if Frankel hadnt been in the St James Palace Excelebration would have won & not finished 2nd!! |
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Brigust, the international handicappers have said their ratings have slipped. Can you respond to this? Do you believe you know more about those ratings than the people responsible for them?
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Dominic Gardner Hill refuted that the other day on RUK after looking through the ratings. I heard him saying it myself and Timeform concurred about the number of horses rated in Dancing Brave's year compared with last year. And Phil Smith stated it in his interview with the Guardian. The momentum is growing as the facts are brought to the table. When all of this ridiculous media frenzy, where reporters and TV pundits are trying to out do each other, dies down I think the facts, many of which I have stated for nearly 2 years, will be brought to the for.
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Brig, they stated it back in 2009, as you well know as you've seen the evidence, so it doesn't fit with your Frankel conspiracy theory.
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i'm not sure what relevance that fact has to the argument...surely it's harder to give a horse a high rating if there's fewer good horse for it to beat
besides, surely the official handicappers have been fatally discredited after their lies re. the slippage of their ratings and the revelation that DBrave's rating was a leaving present for a retiring handicapper....you couldnt make it up  |
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Look on the bright side at least there will be less chance of 0-160 hcp system in the future?
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You really think putting DB a pound above Shergar was simply a birthday present? I think DB was better than Shergar and I suggest the vast majority do as well. It may have been a comment made but it certainly wasn't an undeserved action.
And Geoff m, Do you really think that? Excelebration beat Dubawi Gold further that day than any other time and never met either Zoffany or Neebras again. I suggest that is his true form. |
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Taken from RUK interview:
Lydia: 'How about the suggestion that you are a commercial organisation and it is in your interests to come up with a big number for Frankel'? Jamie (Timeform):'Yes, I'm not exactly, I'm not sure I agree with that because basically we are performing the same service as the BHA, the fact that someone pays for our information is neither here nor there'. |
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Great to hear a wolverhampton lass,giving it some
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giving it some reading out the viewers emails
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It wasn't an email it was part of her interview. I'm certain she would have said it was an email as she did every other time.
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Taken from RUK interview:
Lydia: 'How about the suggestion that you are a commercial organisation and it is in your interests to come up with a big number for Frankel'? She is a journalist and interviewer, she was raising the question that a few individuals have been bandying about, in no way implying that she agreed with it. So the point of repeating this is what exactly? |
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Figgis I wanted you to see the words used. No cherry picking here. And I suggest if she thought it was totally unfounded she wouldn't have asked. It isn't and she did.
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Is that not circular reasoning though? X must be accurate because X happened
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megsy
next you will say excelebration was bred to be a miler It's irrelevant what the horse is bred for it it's winning at a mile on the racecourse but with with 4 wins at a mile and another 4 placed efforts at a mile and the way the horse has put distance between itself and other top milers even when 2nd to Frankel, plus on top of all of that he wasn't exactly stopping at the line in his last two wins and stayed on the bridle well into the races or heavy ground that puts an emphasis on staying the trip, are you seriously saying Excelebration doesn't get a mile and is really a sprinter? Oh and by the way, other Exceed & Excel progeny included Helmet, winner of the Champagne Stakes at Randwick and the Caulfield Guineas and what distant are they, a mile aren' they? The horse also had its first run in the UK at a mile too in the QA behind Frankel and Excelebration. Plus Fulbright (another E & E) won the Betfred Mile at Goodwood (have a wild guess at what distance that race was) and the Fortune Stakes at Sandown (which is a stiff uphill finish) and in his last 4 races at a mile has won 3 and a beaten2nd by ¼L in the other and has plenty of 7f form too, including winning twice, so forgive my if I go by the form and what my eyes see rather than the stud book. |
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And I suggest if she thought it was totally unfounded she wouldn't have asked. It isn't and she did.
Quite extraordinary to believe that an interviewer only raises points that they personally hold true. |
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It's irrelevant what the horse is bred for it it's winning at a mile on the racecourse but with with 4 wins at a mile and another 4 placed efforts at a mile and the way the horse has put distance between itself and other top milers even when 2nd to Frankel,
Care to name the other top milers? |
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I never said that Figgis. It was a valid question, that is why she asked it. Whether she believes it or not. It may not fit into your scheme of things but there you are.
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They're in the results, it would be the same for you as for me.
Grand Prix Boss, Immortal Verse (and Goldikova by association through a line of form), Dick Turpin, Cityscape, Elusive Kate, Moonlight Cloud all solid multiple Gr1 winners. If you then through a line of form look at the fact that Frankel beat Canford Cliffs 5L and Excelebration generally gets closer to Frankel when defeated (bar the anomaly of the QA race) then it's not too much of a stretch of the imagination to think that Excelebration has the beating of CC, a horse that Richard Hannon described as the best he has trained in 40 years and at the mile distance alone is a 3 times 2000gns winning trainer, 3 times Lockinge winner, 2 times Queen Anne winner, St James's Place winner, 2 times Sussex Stakes winner and Irish 2,000 Guineas winner. |
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And Excelebration is now rated better than:
Goldikova Prix de Toutevoie (2007) Prix de la Lorie (2007) Prix Chloe (2008) Prix Rothschild (2008, 2009, 2010, 2011) Prix du Moulin (2008) Falmouth Stakes (2009) Prix Jacques Le Marois (2009) Prix d'Ispahan (2010, 2011) Queen Anne Stakes (2010) Prix de la Foret (2010) Breeders' Cup wins: Breeders' Cup Mile (2008, 2009, 2010) Awards: European Horse of the year (2010) European Champion Older Horse (2009, 2010) French Champion Older Horse (2009) American Champion Female Turf Horse (2009 Miesque Prix de la Salamandre (1986) Prix Marcel Boussac (1986) Prix Imprudence (1987) Poule d'Essai des Pouliches (1987) Prix du Moulin de Longchamp (1987) 1,000 Guineas (1987) Breeders' Cup Mile (1987 & 1988) Prix d'Ispahan (1988) Prix Jacques Le Marois (1988) Awards United States Champion Female Turf Horse (1987 & 1988) That is how stupid this is getting. |
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It was a valid question, that is why she asked it. Whether she believes it or not. It may not fit into your scheme of things but there you are.
Valid to the conspiracy theorists. I don't know about my scheme of things, but it fails to answer anything so has no relevance. |
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look forward to excelebration v wise dan stateside (if it happens)
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brigust1
22 Oct 12 14:41 Yes, perhaps you are right DI, insult is the wrong word, but let's say deriding the individual rather than the facts. brigust1 21 Oct 12 23:53 For anyone who thinks this is good form I suggest you get another hobby. |
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Brigust, still failing dismally to grasp that handicapping is about value of performance, not trophies won.
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Anyway we,ll have to wait until December to get final ratings.
No way Excelebration is a 135 horse imo. Agree Brigust all a bit stupid now |
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Once again brigust1 you are going by races won as if that's the be all and end all and apart from the fact Excelebration also won some of those race that Goldikova and Miesque won and probably would have won some more but for Frankel, what do you think the result would have been if it Goldikova faced Frankel or if it were possible for Miesque to have?
Frankel beat Canford Cliffs 5L and Goldikova was 1L behind CC in the QA of 2011 and she was also beaten 1L by Immortal Verse. Frankel has beaten Immortal Verse 7½L in last year's QEII and Excelebration was 3½L in front of her too and he (Excelebration) beat her 9¾L this season too. Immortal Verse has also been beaten 7¾L by Elusive Kate and Excelebration has twice beaten that one by 1½L and then 6¼L on Saturday. |
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Cherry picking Ima? Shame on you. I'll name the horses you and Figgis can slaughter them. Nothing will be sacred for you two to try to prove a point.
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I'll name the horses you and Figgis can slaughter them. Nothing will be sacred for you two to try to prove a point.
So when anybody compares the value of the form of horses gone by with present day horses you call it slaughtering them, what a very strange man you are. |