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Will be rated the same as multiple classic winners Nashwan and Sir Ivor and equal to Dahlia, Pebbles, Kris and All Along.
Nashwan won 6 from 7 starts including the 2000Gns, Derby, Eclipse and King George.
Sir Ivor won the 2000gns, Derby, Champion Stakes, Washington Int and 2nd in the Arc to Vaguely Noble.
Pebbles won Champion Stakes (twice), Cheiveley Park, Eclipse, Coronation Stakes and Breeders Cup turf.
Kris won 14 from 16, 2nd twice. Sussex, QE11, St James Palace and Lockinge among many others.
Dahlia won Irish Oaks, King George & QE11 (twice), Benson & Hedges, Washington Int etc etc etc.
All Along won Prix Vermielle, Arc de Triomphe etc etc.
Shahrastani. Dante, Derby and Irish Derby winner.
Shadeed and many others.
And is now rated higher than Triptych, Indian Skimmer, Katies, Roberto.
Plot and lost come to mind.
Nashwan won 6 from 7 starts including the 2000Gns, Derby, Eclipse and King George.
Sir Ivor won the 2000gns, Derby, Champion Stakes, Washington Int and 2nd in the Arc to Vaguely Noble.
Pebbles won Champion Stakes (twice), Cheiveley Park, Eclipse, Coronation Stakes and Breeders Cup turf.
Kris won 14 from 16, 2nd twice. Sussex, QE11, St James Palace and Lockinge among many others.
Dahlia won Irish Oaks, King George & QE11 (twice), Benson & Hedges, Washington Int etc etc etc.
All Along won Prix Vermielle, Arc de Triomphe etc etc.
Shahrastani. Dante, Derby and Irish Derby winner.
Shadeed and many others.
And is now rated higher than Triptych, Indian Skimmer, Katies, Roberto.
Plot and lost come to mind.
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"WILL"? ..... and then your thread reads as - HAS been raised.
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Once again you are falling into the trap of going but what races alone have been won rather than the visual performance.
Say a horse was beaten in a photo in races like the 2000gns, Derby, Eclipse and so on by a horse like Nashwan, does that mean it isn't as good as the likes of Shammit and Benny The Dip because they have won a Derby? |
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tobermory 21 Oct 12 16:01 Joined: 01 Mar 08 | Topic/replies: 28,965 | Blogger: tobermory's blog
Excelebration's form figures if Frankel had never existed 411/112111-111111 A horse that supposedly don''t compare to the ones Brigadier G and Dancing Brave beat but ,Frankel apart, he was almost unbeatable! Major wins Mehl-Mülhens-Rennen (2011) Hungerford Stakes (2011) Prix du Moulin de Longchamp (2011) Gladness Stakes (2012) Prix Jacques Le Marois (2012) Queen Elizabeth II Stakes (2012) |
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Ah so we are assuming if one horse didn't run then the result would still be the same? Works for me.
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Can you say otherwise brigust1?
We've seen what Excelebration does when Frankel isn't in opposition so is it really too much of a stretch to say that he would have won without Frankel? Especially when you consider how things panned out in the QA when he tried to make a race of it and you used Side Glance's close proximity before to knock Frankel/Excelebration yet look what happened yesterday. SG was beaten 7½L yesterday yet was beaten 11½L by Frankel in the QA and he certainly wasn't closing in on Frankel and only did so on Excelebration when beaten ½L after that one tried to go with Frankel. Yesterday's race would have shown that to be an abnormally, as would the 9¼L and 5¼L SG was behind Frankel and Excelebration in the QEII last year. |
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Nashwan won 6 from 7 starts including the 2000Gns, Derby, Eclipse and King George.
Handicap ratings are about quality, not quantity. Nashwan was indeed a fine horse, but how anyone can say the quality of those races that year was amongst the best renewals is bewildering. |
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He extended his advantage over Cityscape and Elusive Kate but on heavy ground distances tend to be greater. If you rate him above 135 then you move Frankel up to near 150. I am happy with 142+ for Frankel and 132 for Excelebration at their best.
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very sagacious of you
 sounds about right to me |
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Clearly there is no horse safe , Figgis, in your defence of Frankel and his form lines.
I'm asking the questions Ima. But if you insist. Do I believe Excelebration has earned a rating equivalent to the above, considering, as Phil Smith said this is a year when Frankel is racing against lesser horses than Dancing Brave did, no is the answer. Emphatically 'no'. All it proves again is that a commercial organisation will stop at nothing for commercial gains. Knowing the sheep will follow of course. In fact banking on it. |
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brigust1 21 Oct 12 19:31 Ah so we are assuming if one horse didn't run then the result would still be the same? Works for me. Out of interest, what instances do you think this wouldnt have been the case (ie Excelebration fin 2nd to Frankel but wouldnt have won if Frankel hadnt run) and please give reasons why. Cheers. |
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All it proves again is that a commercial organisation will stop at nothing for commercial gains.
A commercial organisation that will stop at nothing.....except it took them 40 yrs to do so  |
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brigust1 Joined: 07 Dec 01
Clearly there is no horse safe , Figgis, in your defence of Frankel and his form lines. Ok, perhaps you can explain to me how a 1 length beating of Exbourne, a 5 length beating of Terimon, a 5 length beating of Opening Verse and a neck beating of Cacoethes is light years ahead of any of Excelebration's form? Not only that, but you even compared Nashwan's form to Frankel's, saying Nashwan could've achieved the same, astonishing. |
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And the only one of those wins that you could say was won with anything to spare was the one against Opening Verse.
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Or maybe when the backs are against the proverbial wall. Or when other, non commercial organisations are getting better. Take your head out of the sand DI. It's unbecoming.
Oh. Cherry picking are we Figgis? You usually accuse me of that. But if the cap fits. Pray tell me where the 'light years' come from. Your words not mine. Feeling uncomfortable or is your aim to denegrate every thoroughbred that crosses your path? I seem to remember a certain Willie Carson sayng Nashwan was the best he has ever ridden and Marcus Tregoning the best he has been associated with. Going to denegrate them now are you? |
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Oh. Cherry picking are we Figgis?
Cherry picking? But those were all his big race wins that you mentioned. Would you rather I'd chosen his Prix Niel defeat? |
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I seem to remember a certain Willie Carson sayng Nashwan was the best he has ever ridden and Marcus Tregoning the best he has been associated with.
Ah right, so you believe handicappers should rate horses on connections opinions? |
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Figgis21 Oct 12 21:16
Joined: 28 Sep 04 | Topic/replies: 1,808 | Blogger: Figgis's blog Oh. Cherry picking are we Figgis? Cherry picking? But those were all his big race wins that you mentioned. Would you rather I'd chosen his Prix Niel defeat? yes  |
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brigust1
21 Oct 12 19:31 Ah so we are assuming if one horse didn't run then the result would still be the same? Works for me. Out of interest, what instances do you think this wouldnt have been the case (ie Excelebration fin 2nd to Frankel but wouldnt have won if Frankel hadnt run) and please give reasons why. Cheers. ?? |
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excel clearly 2nd best miler but i do believe he wouldnt have won ALL the races frankel did. the dynamics of each race would be different without frankel. imo.
rio de la plata gave him a scare in soft ground and hes no world beater. |
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rio is a decent horse tho imo.
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This is becoming an illness...KATIES?
 WTF!!!I was a big fan of Ramsden's filly (backed her in the Irish Guineas AND Coronation) but I'd be confident that Excelebration would whip her arse!  |
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Dick Hern quotes about Nashwan: I know now he is the fastest miler I have had since Brigadier Gerard and he stays a mile and a half as well. Nashwan won easier than Troy even though his winning distance was 7 lengths.
Buster Haslam (Travelling head lad) Nashwan is far better than Troy and Henbit - he's got such speed. Willie Carson. He's the one. Definitely the best I have ridden. And of course Excelebration is also rated better than Rock of Gibralar (10 wins and 2 seconds) European Horse of the Year etc.and Hawk Wing. |
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yes i wasnt sure bout excel but i was v impressed with his last performance.
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*Gibraltar
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i guess they dont count what races theyve won brig. just give them performance ratings for particular races.
i personally think races won is a better way to measure greatness. |
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brigust1
.....I seem to remember a certain Willie Carson sayng Nashwan was the best he has ever ridden and Marcus Tregoning the best he has been associated with. Going to denegrate them now are you? When did Willie Carson ride Frankel?.....Or you will like this one, when did Willie Carson ride Brigadier Gerard Jockeys and Trainers saying such and such a horse is the best they have ever been associated with more often than not is a limited statement in the same way as trainers saying such and such a horse is the best on their yard and are then surprised and disappointed when you widen the net and another trainer's horse that's the best on their yard beats it. A quote from the BBC website: Former champion jockey Willie Carson says Frankel is the greatest racehorse he has seen. "I think he is the best. At the moment, he just looks unbeatable," he said. "His stride is longer than other horses and you don't actually see him quicken - he seems to do it all so effortlessly." |
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brigust1 Joined: 07 Dec 01
Nashwan won easier than Troy even though his winning distance was 7 lengths. It's funny (but not surprising) that there's no mention of the horses beaten when you talk about these horses you favour from the past, 2 of those Nashwan beat in 2nd were 500/1 shots. Yet Frankel's opponents are referred to as a "strange bunch". |
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Willie Carson's not exactly the best judge is he?
Isn't it about time there was a 'Carson-balls' column in the racing papers? His gaffes are legendary! Officially, Troy was rated 137 and Nashwan 131 (which was 3lb less than Old Vic) but I'm not aware of their Timeform ratings. I think because Nashwan won the Guineas as well as the Derby and Troy didn't have the pace for a mile he could well mean that in an 'all-rounder' sense - I know where my money would be over 12f...definitely with Troy, and I suspect Carson knows deep down PS - Brigust...that small matter of 'Katies' again please?   |
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I'm just putting the horses up Figgis. I will leave it to you to denegrate and ridicule them. You have such experience at it and you do such a good job. Please do not let me stand in your way. It does make me smile the lengths some people (including you) will go to protect Frankel. Next thing you will be saying is last years classic generation were exceptional and that goes for this years as well.
No, no, no Feotus (utterings from the womb) I will leave the slagging off to you. Oh and Figgis as well. Let's not forget Figgis. |
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carson did say frankel is the best hes seen fwiw.
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No Ilike he said 'the best racehorse anyone has seen'. Speaking for you and me as well. Good man.
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"It does make me smile the lengths some people (including you) will go to protect Frankel"
Sorry mate...that's EXACTLY YOU in reverse! Katies wouldn't have saw what way Excelebration went...EVERYONE knows that (including you) and your riposte is a limp attempt at reverse psychology because you know you've made another absolute clanger! I don't know what you're gonna do when Excelebration bolts up in the Breeders' Cup Mile by six lengths...get a new ID I suspect |
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ive also heard him say hes seen.
dont let particular words annoy u. obv we all have our opinons, willie aint god. i prefer sts and think he'd have beaten CDA as easily as frankel yest. |
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opinions
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I will leave it to you to denegrate and ridicule them.
Saying "Nashwan was indeed a fine horse" could only be interpreted as denegration and ridicule by an idiot. |
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Not on that ground ILWAB
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If you get the Racing Post 'Ilike' those are the words they are using to promote the Frankel book. Inside page of the pull-out.
By the way Ilike. Are there any of the races Frankel won that STS couldn't have won as easily? And, alternatively, are there any races STS won that in your opinion Frankel would have struggled to win? Oh, insults now Figgis. Whatever happened to sensible debate? |
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i thought sts best performance was on the softest ground he encountered.
the horse was just amazing. i take it back his arc was the best ive seen. no horse ive personally see couldve rounded those pacemakers and won with such ease up the inside bar frankel and i dont believe he'd have stayed. esp not at 3. sts was miraculous! |
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brigust1 Joined: 07 Dec 01
Whatever happened to sensible debate? |