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Mellish & Hislop. I am not blind, thank you.
Mellish & Hislop. I am not blind, thank you.
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Replies: 760
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Still in denial then?
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Brigust
you are wasting your time, you cannot educate pork, let them believe Frankel is the best ever racehorse there's ever been. |
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Toooo difficult a question was it Marcce? Well I'm off out for a bit so take your time.
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Cannot believe Duncan Idaho say he made his decision on who's the best Frankel or The Brigadier, based on posts made by Marcce and Brigust. If you never saw The Brigadier race then you cannot comment.
FFS of course i didnt say that |
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tbh even if frankel ran in and won the eclipse, juddmonte and champion stakes, i still wouldnt have him as good as the others mentioned. we're talking about horses that have won the guineas and derby AND ARC and didnt take them 20 runs over a mile beating the same sh!te over 2 yrs to then go up in trip.
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Did Brigadier Gerard win a Derby and Arc?
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No , Mill Reef did though.
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ilwab, you've just kindly illustrated that the argument that has been raging for days is not about who is the greatest but what makes a horse the greatest....you saying no matter what Frankel does from now on, you wont rate him above certain others shows that you have a different idea of 'greatest' to many people...fair enough...let's leave it at that before you tell us how sh!te Frankel's opposition has been for the 33rd time
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This debate has lost its focus., which originally was to do with brigust1 pouring scorn on the claim by Mellish & Hislop that Frankel's QA performance was the best they have ever seen (which may be true.)
Whether Brig Gerard was a better horse or not, or Sea Bird or Dancing Brave or Nijinsky or Secretariat or whoever, is open to debate. TF have stated that they rate Frankel at 147 which is the highest rating they have ever given a horse and which would therefore make him in their opinion the best horse to race "on ratings" since the 1940's anf therefore better than any of those mentioned earlier. (Iterestingly, Simon Rowlands mentionms that in his view, not TF's, Secretariat might have been given a figure above 150.) Those of us who are sceptical are not not disagreeing with the view that Frankel is undoubtedly a great horse but beg to differ with TF's exalted rating on the grounds that beating the same horse half a dozen times, especially one whose main claim to fame lies with his proximity to Frankel, is a circular argument, and adds doubt. For such a rating and therefore a claim of greatness to be made, it seems to us that the case is still unproven at best, and that such a rating is premature until Frankel can demonstrate such a rating against other horses. I myself believe that the problem lies with the the collateral rating methodology as clearly explained in Simon rowelands piece of BF's TF page. The science/art of handicapping has not moved on for 60 years and my own work in this area leads me to believe that a single figure expressed in pounds can never adequately explain performance. It's like watching B&W TV when colour in HD is required. |
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Did Mill Reef win the 2000 Guineas?
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The science/art of handicapping has not moved on for 60 years and my own work in this area leads me to believe that a single figure expressed in pounds can never adequately explain performance. It's like watching B&W TV when colour in HD is required.
be straight with me....are we talking biorhythms, sandown? |
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My point is that none of the above should be rated higher than the other. Sea Bird 11, Nijinsky, Brigadier Gerard, Mill Reef and Dancing Brave have all done enough to be considered the greatest ever. And if Frankel sees the season out then he also deserves to join that group.
I am arguing Brigadier Gerard's case simply because he was a miler similar to Frankel. I would not be on here claiming Brigadier Gerard is better than Sea Bird 11, Mill Reef or Dancing Brave because no-one knows for sure. I am not even claiming Brigadier Gerard is better than Frankel but few know of his exploits and I am enlightening them. Those who know do not need enlightening I can assure you. And I'm pretty certain all my agument does is show how stupid it is to rate one higher than the other. That is all I am doing. We all have our favourites and that is fine and we can argue the for's and against's as we like. That is what a forum is for. What I totally and absolutely disagree with is TV pundits telling me I must be blind to the facts and on top of that Frankel being rated better than the above mentioned great horses even before his season is finished. No-one, however clueless, can state that as fact and Timeform make themselves look like fools for doing so. |
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I thought you were going out.
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I hoped he was going out....same old drivel
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Been out, came back but the nutters are still not back in the asylum.
And by the way lads Brigadier Gerard would have been running in the Eclipse this weekend after already winning the Lockinge (giving 27lbs to the 2nd), the Gordon Richards (giving a stone to the 2nd)and Prince of Wales (giving 19lbs to the 2nd)then 2 weeks after the Eclipse he would be running in the King George. A proper fo oking racehorse. |
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i cant believe you still cant see that your rather vague 'lets group them all together' idea of greatness (which is a perfectly fine view to have) DIFFERS from the mathematical task of rating horses TO THE LB that Timeform et al are required to do...that is all this is about
...the only unbelievable thing about this whole Frankel business is the quote from the official handicapper along the lines of 'i'm loathe to rate him above DBrave'....it shouldnt be down to his whim...they should have processes in place that decide these things |
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DI
Astrology, numerology, nameology plus biorhythms  |
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yep, a great horse the Brigadier, no doubt about that....mind you, cant help wondering if there was a load of people saying he was a hype horse back then?
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nameology, eh, sandown? it could be the final piece in my jigsaw that. cheers.
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nameology, that's why horses like Dubai Millenium will never be considered great
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Duncan not with Mill Reef winning the Derby, Eclipse, King George and Arc I can assure you hype never came into it.
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Can I introduce Pharlap,Zarkava and Big Bucks into the argument?
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The only 'argument' if you want to call it that Feltfair is that no horse has proved signifantly that they are the best ever.
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Quite correct, except Frankel.
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yes dunc u are right, doesnt matter what i think, its just opinion. i personally prefer my champions to win derbys, arcs aswell as the races frankel is thinking about taking in and missing (eclpise)
my idea of a champion is not one that wins inferior races against the same horse when there are harder and indeed better and more prestigious races to be won. thats just me tho, i can appreciate frankel and i do think he is a great horse but i cant mention him in the same breath as sts, mill reef, BG, nijinsky. they all did things frankel never did (wasnt allowed to) but they all couldve won the races frankel has. thats the difference. i blame the connections, not the horse obv. |
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seems strange to me that all these pundits now queuing up to hail frankel as the greatest,were the same ones who less than 12 months ago were raising their eyebrows when henry set its the best he,s trained,now after beating the same horses there certain and prepared to believe he,s the best anyones trained,
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I saw Brigadier Gerard "live" only once , The St James Palace Stakes at Royal Ascot 1971 , it was still the last race in those days so was not on TV , he entered the final furlong 4 lengths down on Sparkler , no mean miler himself , one slap from Mercer and he picked him up and won comfortably , he was a great horse and Frankel has not done enough yet to be considered his equal , let alone his superior.
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Yes,yes but what about Pharlap, Zarkava and Big Bucks?
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That is true actually. When Brigadier Gerard was beaten in the Benson & Hedges they had the third horse 10 lengths away. On checking through time they found it was actually 17 lengths.
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Brigust it really would help if you read my posts properly.
This is what I replied. As I continually point out, as far as I'm concerned, Frankel is the best I've seen though I'm too young to have seen Brigadier Gerard. As I've also continually pointed out I have no idea if he is the best ever. Neither do I particularly care if he is or not. Though that doesn't mean I won't continue to contradict your increasingly myopic views on this subject. |
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Contradict? I can understand someone who has a different view based on facts but to say you are going to continually contradict my views tells me you are just a nuisance.
If you want to discuss anything like a grown up human being then I'm here, but if your only aim in life is to contradict my views then I will just ignore you. |
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It`s not fair limiting discussion to grown up human beings.
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Good to see discussion is still going strong. The Brigadier Gerard love in is becoming a bit tiresome - his pre-eminence is just as shaky as any other horse if you want empirical absolutes - there are none.
Frankel is the most visually impressive horse I have seen on the Flat and I would not , on all known factual evidence , dispute a rating of 145 plus. However the most ridiculous comment on the whole thread is this: Ekbalco 04 Jul 12 13:28 Joined: 30 Jan 03 | Topic/replies: 5,174 | Blogger: Ekbalco's blog Frank's a very good miler performing in a weak division/era for milers - he is nowhere near the great ****ing laughable |
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Ok, change the subject. What about Mill Reef? He only ran once at a mile, finishing 2nd, can't remember who to but that doesn't matter.
Both of the races below are taken from when the pace quickened and they all ran for the line. Three furlongs out on the 1971 2000Gns Mill Reef was 2 lengths in front of Brigadier Gerard. At the line Mill Reef was 3 lengths behind him. That means had he and Brigadier Gerard been level 3 furlongs out then Brigadier Gerard would have won by 5 lengths. Are you with me? In the 2012 Queen Anne 3 furlongs out Frankel was 4 lengths in front of Side Glance and at the line he was 11 lengths in front of him. That means had Frankel and Side Glance been level 3 out then Frankel would have beaten Side Glance by 7 lengths. If Frankel (147) is rated 3lbs better than Brigadier Gerard (144)that would put Brigadier Gerard 1 ½ lengths behind Frankel. As Mill Reef is 5 lengths behind Brigadier Gerard and Side Glance is 7 lengths behind Frankel that would put Mill Reef 6 1/2 lengths behind Frankel and Side Glance ½ behind Mill Reef. Mill Reef is rated 141 and Side Glance 117. And he would beat Side Glance 1/2 a length. Are fo oking kidding me? |
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Sorry! That should read- Are you fo oking kidding me?
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HipPriest • July 4, 2012 10:11 PM BST
However the most ridiculous comment on the whole thread is this. I would have thought that particular award would go to................'and I would not , on all known factual evidence , dispute a rating of 145 plus'.. Factual evidence PMSL.......  |
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I`m amazed Timeform is still in business given that their ratings are such rubbish according to many of the threads on here.
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Three furlongs out on the 1971 2000Gns Mill Reef was 2 lengths in front of Brigadier Gerard. At the line Mill Reef was 3 lengths behind him. That means had he and Brigadier Gerard been level 3 furlongs out then Brigadier Gerard would have won by 5 lengths.
Are you with me? In the 2012 Queen Anne 3 furlongs out Frankel was 4 lengths in front of Side Glance and at the line he was 11 lengths in front of him. That means had Frankel and Side Glance been level 3 out then Frankel would have beaten Side Glance by 7 lengths. If Frankel (147) is rated 3lbs better than Brigadier Gerard (144)that would put Brigadier Gerard 1 ½ lengths behind Frankel. As Mill Reef is 5 lengths behind Brigadier Gerard and Side Glance is 7 lengths behind Frankel that would put Mill Reef 6 1/2 lengths behind Frankel and Side Glance ½ behind Mill Reef. Mill Reef is rated 141 and Side Glance 117. And he would beat Side Glance 1/2 a length. Are fo oking kidding me? brigust, that is just confused nonsense and has as much to do with rating the performances as the price of butter has. the presumptions you make ie x 3f out = y at the line are very naive. Honestly, this is like me having an argument about the Duckworth-Lewis method despite the fact i havent got the first clue how it works. |
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That may be your opinion DI but that is exactly what they did at Epsom when they compared the Derby with the Oaks. They lined the front runners up at Tattenham corner to see who finished best. And that is exactly what they do sometimes at Kempton etc. The first part of the race can, and I use the word advisedly, can be meaningless. It is often only when the race unfolds or the main protagonist quicken up that the position they are in at that time can determine the outcome.
I wonder how many times you have backed a horse that finished well and, if it had been in the right place when the pace quickened, may have won? At Ascot in the Queen Anne and at Newmarket in the 2000 Gns they were mile races on a straight track where they went a fair gallop from the start and the race never started in earnest until the 3 furlong pole. Not so meaningless is it? |
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It is absolutely meaningless.
You have based an argument there on a completely hypothetical situation and made out as if it was fact. I can assure you that had Side Glance been level with Frankel 3 furlongs out in this rather strange make believe scenario he would not have been finishing within 11 lengths, it would have been closer to 20. You really do need to start considering expense of energy across a race a little more Brigust. We've moved on from an old boy with a handheld stopwatch now you know. Another flaw in this little thesis of yours is that at the time of the 2000 Guineas, Mill Reef was not rated 141 and Brigadier Gerard was not rated 144. Just as Frankel was nowhere near 147 when he won the 2000 Guineas. In fact, much of Mill Reef's high rating can be attributed to his exploits over middle distances. So, in theory, Side Glance could have finished closer to him over a mile than the ratings would suggest. |