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Mellish & Hislop. I am not blind, thank you.
Mellish & Hislop. I am not blind, thank you.
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Ok Brigust so by the same degree why the hell was a 130 rated horse upsides Brigadier Gerard at the furlong pole if he was so great then?
It's just such a plainly ridiculous argument. And it's just but, but, but, but with Frankel's form. And wherever Immortal Verse was in the race she was beaten as well as you would have expected horses of Frankel's and Excelebration's ratings to have beaten a horse of her rating. You told me earlier that because there were so few Group 1's back in the early 70's everyone had to show up to win one. Is that why Brigadier Gerard kept running in field of 3, 4, 5 and 6 runners then? See I can but, but, but as well. |
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I'd say a 130 rated horse, in them days, was a true G1 animal.
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Ok Brigust so by the same degree why the hell was a 130 rated horse upsides Brigadier Gerard at the furlong pole if he was so great then?
ay? having a 130 horse upsides at a furlong pole has nothing to do with anything. |
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this debate has gotten way too tied up with tf.
seriously, they are woeful. |
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With a head to head being impossible its all a metter of opinion, and not worth getting upset about. I´m a big fan of Frankel, and always have been. the horse is a powerhouse and probably the best miler I´ve ever seen.
Brigadier Gerard, on the other hand, probably beat better horses (Mill Reef for one) and proved his ability over a range of distances, against top class opposition, which it has to be said Frankel has still not done yet. So maybe, just maybe, Frankel is the best miler - but he certainly is not the most versatile - that honour must go unquestionably to the Brigadier. It remains to be seen if we will ever see Frankel prove his worth over 10 furlongs, even though I for one think he could be even better. While it was brave for connections to continue racing him at four I fear the time is nearly past when we will see him race against anything other than the present crop of - lets be honest - sub-standard UK milers, and he will go to stud unbeaten, but still relatively untested. |
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he'll race at york but the problem will be i reckon that the so called top 10f horses won't turn up.
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the problem is that he shouldve raced over 10 last season.
sure hes taking in the sussex ffs, just retire him. |
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Sandown
03 Jul 12 15:39 I have reason to believe that it was Excelebration and Side Glance who ran well below form. biorhythms, innit (might aswell f*ckin' be)  |
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Good morning guys and gals.
Marcce the reason he was alongside a 130 and 118 rated horse approaching the final furlong was because JM knew he could pick them up and carry them. At the line it was 6 lengths and 5 lengths. BG had blinding speed as well as stamina and, had he won the Benson & Hedges, was entered in the Nunthorpe over 5f 2 days later. I would love to see Frankel just sit until the final furlong then sprint. Ilike I don't want Frankel to retire yet. Our friends at Timeform already have him on 147, if he wins the Sussex, Juddmonte and Champion Stakes what on earth are they going to put him on then? Even though at the moment there doesn't look like a suitable opponent to take him on. And Mellish and Olivia will be have org asms all over the place. Especially Stevie boy, he will be hardly able speak. |
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still here
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a lot depends on the jockey too.
if lester rode frankel, he'd never win by more than a neck. |
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^^^ but he would look great, wouldn't he. Wow.
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motionless, its some sight seeing lester coming there on the steel. just looks better than anyone else for some reason.
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Brigust this is getting even more daft now.
The reason Frankel doesn't have to wait until the furlong pole and sprint is because he can cover the last 3 furlongs in sub 36 seconds. In short, sprinters speed. He covered the last 3 furlongs in the QE11 just less than a tenth of a second outside the time Deacon Blues took to cover the same distance in the sprint race on the same day. In the piece about him on Sky Sports News last night, Shane Featherstonehaugh referred to the fact that he can accelerate for longer than any other horse he's known. There is absolutely no need for Queally to wait until the furlong pole because he knows he has a freakish animal underneath him who is capable of sustaining sprinting speed for far more than a furlong. The sectional times back that up because he's been following up sub 11 second furlongs with the next furlong bordering on 11 seconds again. To put that into some context, he clocked 10.58 seconds between the 3 pole and the 2 pole in the Queen Anne. Excelebration clocked 11.12 for that furlong and Side Glance 11.24. Frankel then followed that up with a 11.04 furlong whereas Excelebration had slipped to 11.68 and Side Glance 11.67. I honestly don't think you are able to comprehend this because your perceived idea of a great horse is something that comes there on the bridle and sprints away from his rivals a furlong out. And with the being the case I don't think you'll ever truly "get" Frankel. |
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marcce, brigust loves Brigadier Gerard and that's great...his arguments have more holes than a piece of swiss cheese wearing fishnets...but the lady is not for turning, as the wretched Thatcher once said...this is a discussion you cannot win...it is a waste of yr time and energy.
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brig doesnt have many hole from what i have read. granted its before my time and i havent gone back and actually checked if what he says about BG is true but if it is then BG was easily as remarkable as frankel and certainly achieved more than frankel beating superstars instead if racing the same horse over the same trip in its last 6 races, a horse whose only ever won a sh!te g1 beating rio de la plata in Vsft ground
 keep hearing about how he'd have won X amount of g1s if frankel wasnt around, fact is he hasnt. BG beat Mill Reef. its frankel that has to prove his worth imo. cant believe theres anyone even remotely excited about the prospect of him beating excel in the sussex |
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DI you should read the threads my friend. I am NOT saying Frankel isn't a great racehorse. Have you got that? All I am saying is that there is no evidene that he is the GREATEST racehorse ever.
Is that within your bounds of comprehension? I think what Brigadier Gerard achieved at least EQUALS what Frankel has achieved and, in my opinion, supercedes it. You can believe exactly what you want, that is what I believe. And the same goes for Marcce. Shane is going to say that isn't he, he rides the horse every day. Had he ridden any of the other great racehorse his view may be worth something but he hasn't and it isn't. And if you think it is sectionals that make great racehorses you should watch some of the quarter horses race. You seem to think I don't rate Frankel, well you would be wrong. I have already pointed out through the Queen Anne and the 2000 Gns, apparently Frankel's best results, where BG at least matches those achievements. So the fact is not that I am 'not for turning' the fact is you are 'blinded by the hype'. |
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i'm not blinded by any hype...i just read the threads and can see who knows what they are talking about and whose arguments are built on a hill of beans. i really wish i'd been around to see the likes of the Brigadier, Nijinsky, Mill Reef, Dahlia etc but came along a few years too late...i have absolutely nothing against those horses...but the arguments have to stack up.
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are u trolling dunc?
have u not seen the collerateral form lines brig has put up AGAIN and AGAIN? any horse BG beat won every race that season. susex, king georges, arcs etc... even if u include canford, and excelebration its not even close. frankel is rated thru what excelebration COULDVE achieved |
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blinded by henrys best ever comments imo.
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yep.
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Frank's a very good miler performing in a weak division/era for milers - he is nowhere near the greats.
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no, i'm not trolling...i couldnt give two hoots about Frankel's rating tbh...as i say, i read the arguments on here and have an opinion on them
ps collateral formlines are the road to the poorhouse |
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the division is shocking. hes beaten the same rival 6 times now
and keeping his 10f exploits to a v limited amount, thus eliminating risk. to think horses have won AND dominated like him over ALL distances , he beats the same rival 6 times over the same trip and is hailed the best ever  |
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well then what are brigs holes that u mentioned?
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have u not seen the collerateral form lines brig has put up AGAIN and AGAIN?
the AGAIN and AGAIN is right and no mistake! |
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but thats how we judge great horses, we look at what they beat!
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what 'holes' are u talking about please?
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Brigust I'm not saying you don't rate Frankel and as I've made abundantly clear throughout the various threads I don't really think it's possible to crown a "greatest ever" because there is no defining way of judging that.
And therefore, I don't really concern myself too much with what Timeform or anyone else says. But what is apparent from your posts on the subject is that this really matters to you and secondly you do not seem to apply the same methods of rating Frankel's form as you do in rating Brigadier Gerard's form. For example, I mentioned Immortal Verse yesterday who would seem to be a reliable yardstick. Your response was that she wasn't ridden properly. So were all the horses that came up against Brigadier Gerard ridden properly? Were they all suited by the way the race was run, by the small fields, by the going? Because when you're going to look for things like that to dilute Frankel's performances you have to use that same subjective viewpoint with Brigadier Gerard. And I see that Featherstonehaugh becomes the latest in a long list of people who should know what they're talking about that you dismiss. I'll say again, the sectionals back up what he says. And I'm not saying sectional times make great horses. What they present is a long overdue tool to assess what you appear to have seen visually. And I'll say again the QE11 form is up there with Frankel's best in my opinion. And while you'll continue to knock the 2000 Guineas form, did Brigadier Gerard ever have a Group 1 race smashed to smithereeens by halfway? The bare form of that race does not do justice to the actual performance on that day. As I say it doesn't matter to me what others think about who is best but I do take exception to people who want to present the case for the opposite in such a one sided way. |
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Slow down Boys/Girls Frankel has beat every thing they have put in front of him.. hes unbeaten .. is that right
lets go back to yesteryear .. would he beat say Sea Bird .. Mill Reef .. nobody know and never will Just enjoy the champ ....Frankel and stop living in the past .....zipper lump on he will never get beat |
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zipper Date Joined: 06 Jul 02 Add contact | Send message 04 Jul 12 13:43 Joined: 06 Jul 02 | Topic/replies: 6,886 | Blogger: zipper's blog Slow down Boys/Girls Frankel has beat every thing they have put in front of him.. hes unbeaten .. is that right lets go back to yesteryear .. would he beat say Sea Bird .. Mill Reef .. nobody know and never will Just enjoy the champ ....Frankel and stop living in the past .....zipper lump on he will never get beat telling yourself to lump on form your OTHER username, oh deer! |
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Marcce, you brought Shane up, I didn't. He has been in racing a long time and is a valued member of Henry's staff. But he would have a slightly biased opinion considering he rides the horse every day, wouldn't you think?
And you also brought up Immortal Verse, I didn't. The facts about Immortal Verse's ride are that she was slowly away and sat last, she made progress 2 out just when the pace was quickening. You can hardly say she had the run of the race, can you? I am sure both the trainer and jockey would say exactly the same. In fact I really don't know where you are coming from. Do you think Frankel is the greatest racehorse ever? If the answer is yes then we disagree. If the answer is no then we agree. If the answer is don't know then why are you having a go all of the time? Everything I have posted is as a reaction to what someone else has said. The thread was started because of something Mellish said on RUK. |
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Brig.
The facts about Immortal Verse's ride are that she was slowly away and sat last, she made progress 2 out just when the pace was quickening. You can hardly say she had the run of the race, can you? I am sure both the trainer and jockey would say exactly the same. Immortal Verse beating Goldikova Settled in rear, last 3f out, switched towards stands' side and headway approaching 2f out, smooth progress to lead inside final 1 1/2f, ran on under pressure and drifted right 1f out, straightened up and ran on well final 110yds, eased close the held up approach didnt seem to hinder her too much in the Jacques Le Marois & I think she won the Coronation coming from last to 1st |
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Brigust you're just not getting it.
During the course of this thread you've dismissed the views of Mellish, Hislop, Carson, Frankel's work rider along with many others. As part of your argument for Brigadier Gerard you keep pointing out he beat Vietnam Group 1 winners and all sorts to show the calibre of horses he beat. You argue that Frankel has beaten nothing of that calibre and have constantly referred to Excelebration as if that is the only horse he's ever beaten. I referred to Immortal Verse who nobody has ever mentioned and who would seem to represent the calibre of horse you have referred to. And what do you do? You dismiss that because she was apparently ridden wrongly. As I continually point out, as far as I'm concerned, Frankel is the best I've seen though I'm too young to have seen Brigadier Gerard. As I've also continually pointed out I have no idea if he is the best ever. Neither do I particularly care if he is. But what you're failing to see is that your increasingly blinkered analysis of the merits of the 2 horses is beginning to make you look a bit silly now. You're looking to pick holes in Frankel that you're not looking to do with Brigadier Gerard. I'll give you another example. Featherstonehaugh would say that because he's biased about Frankel? But you're quite happy to accept Mercer's comments about giving Brigadier Gerard an easy race when he scraped home by a short head. Was he not biased as well then? |
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Oh dear! Are you saying that in the QE11 IM got the run of the race, Geoff? I know that is the way she is ridden I never said otherwise. And in the 2 races you mentioned using those tactics worked well, as they do in many races. However she was racing against Frankel so giving him start then quickening when he was quickening would not be my idea of 'getting the run of the race'. It may be your's but it isn't mine. In fact, in the QE11 she nearly lost 3rd to Dubawi Gold. Through Goldikova that puts him in front of Canford Cliffs. Are you with me? I don't think she had the run of the race in the QE11.
In the Marois she beat **** Turpin nearly 5 lengths and only a length in the QE11. Also in the Marois she beat Cityscape 6 lengths whereas Canford Cliffs only beat Cityscape 3 lengths. So you think narrowly beating Dubawi Gold is her form, do you? Marcce 'scraped home by a short head'? You've lost me altogether. If you are refering to the race he beat Ballyhot it was 1/2 a length, he was giving him a stone, he never went for his whip, he led half a furlong out, he had won the Lockinge 9 days earlier and ran in the Prince of Wales 2 weeks later.Where he won by 5 lengths giving the Irish Derby winner 19lbs in course record time. Is that the race you are talking about and trying to rubbish? |
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Cannot believe Duncan Idaho say he made his decision on who's the best Frankel or The Brigadier, based on posts made by Marcce and Brigust. If you never saw The Brigadier race then you cannot comment.
The point has to be made thats its all a matter of opinion inc TF. I think Nijinsky is the greatest of horses ive seen [didnt see Sea Bird]. I cant even mention Frankel in the same breath as Nijinsky, The Brigadier, Dancing Brave,El Gran Senor, Sea The Stars to mention a few. They proved their worth and until Frankel takes on horses over further [Eclipse could have proved how great he is] he cannot be rated better than aforementioned horses. My criteria for true champions is variety of distances won at and strength of opposition. This is where Frankel is let down imo of course. |
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Surely its as clear as day brig your best chance of getting as close as you can to Frankel is not to go with him but be ridden held up as a "non trier" /ridden for a place.
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You may be right, and that may have been their aim. I don't know. I was looking at her trying to achieve the best possible placing.
I cannot see anyway of beating him over a mile unless you are a better horse. That is why a lot of people would like to see him step up in distance. AOB ran a pacemaker in both the Lockinge and the Queen Anne but never used them. That was really odd. His races tend to be just excercise gallops where he follows his lead horse. The other participants run their races for the places. I never saw all of Brigadier Gerard's races but I saw most of them and I cannot ever remember that happening. I think that is very much the aim for many trying to get a bit of black type. |
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Brigust again that's a laughable comment. The only person trying to rubbish anything here is you. Actually that's not quite correct. What I'm rubbishing is your totally one eyed analysis of their merits.
Mellish, Hislop, Carson, Featherstonehaugh, Excelebration, Frankel only putting 11 lengths on Side Glance in 3 furlongs, the way Immortal Verse was ridden. And that's just the things off the top of my head that you've rubbished. I'm sorry, you went off on a tangent regarding the question I asked about the differing distances Brigadier Gerard beat Sparkler by. Your excuse for the win by a short head was actually the heavy ground. |
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You actually never answered my earlier question Marcce. Do you think Frankel is the greatest racehorse ever? Do you think he isn't, at this moment in time, the greatest racehorse ever? Or do you not have an opinion?
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