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Mellish & Hislop. I am not blind, thank you.
Mellish & Hislop. I am not blind, thank you.
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Whatever else may be included, a key prerequisite of greatness in any sport must be to beat the best of the best that is around at the time - and in an event when it matters - not any old trial, but the biggest of the lot. In tennis, its Wimbledon, football the World Cup, boxing the unifying title fights.
As ilikewavingatbuses as just pointed out, Excelebration is not a sound yardstick because his claims are based onn coming second to Frankel which makes for a circular argument - F easily beats E who is a top horse because he comes second to E. A nonsense. Excelebration has won just the one G1 whilst Side Glance hasn't won any and yet the rating is based on beating these 2 horses! Compare that with Seabird's Arc win where he thrashed Reliance II (French Derby winner)and unbeaten,Diatome (subsequently won Washington Int), Anilin (Russian Champion) Meadow Court(Irish Derby & KG) Tom Rolfe (rated the best in USA). Seabird won the greatest 12f turf race from a field of champions and he thrashed them. That's just Seabird. There are others with claims. Now Frankel's wins don't begin to compare yet TF have him rated the best horse since WWII. Go figure. |
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dancing braves arc wasnt a bad race either but i suppose TF dont care about that
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The problem with this is that a few people seem to have decided that Excelebration, a horse unbeaten other than his debut run and races involving Frankel, isn't much good.
And other than the top races he's run in where Frankel was also involved what other Group 1's over a mile were available to him? He's easily beaten horses rated around 115-120 so his rating clearly isn't just based on his performances against Frankel. |
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There is an excellent debate on the BF page which is well worth the effort to read.. In particular, the reasoning given by Simon Rowlands for the 147 rating.
http://betting.betfair.com/horse-racing/royal-ascot/results-reviews/frankel-queen-anne-winner-is-timeforms-highest-rated-horse-in-history-on-147-200612-43.html Whatever the statistical methods used, there is an in-built reluctance to accept that most horses in a race can run well below form. I do not intend to go into detail,about my methods, but I believe that TF's rating of 147 is considerably wrong - at least based on the QA result. |
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Brigust - you claim that "[i] The only reason for this is that Frankel's team obviously do not have confidence in the fact that he can meet that challenge."
Based on the fact that you discredit every single opinion referred to about Frankel in this thread be it from journalists , ex jockeys , other posters , the media etc I assume that you give no credence whatsoever to statements that are not supported by empirical evidence. Therefore could you please post the transcript of your conversation with Cecil , Khalid Abdullah and / or Teddy Grimphorpe that supports this outrageous and wildly made up statement. |
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Ta.
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Frankel's 147 rating actually has his old foe Excelebration running a good few lengths below his previous form. It has the third and fourth, Side Glance and Indomito, within 2 lb of their previous form. And it has every other horse that contested the race below its best by between 4 and 34 lb.
Well this certainly doesn't imply there was a reluctance to accept most of the horses in the race ran well below form does it? |
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Marcce
I have reason to believe that it was Excelebration and Side Glance who ran well below form. |
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An interesting view to suggest that a 113 rated horse who finishes a neck behind a horse rated 125 and comfortably beats horses rated around the same level as him has run below form.
Have you got Worthadd running to 48 or something? |
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Excelebration paid the penalty for trying to take Frankel on at a crucial point in the race. The horse fell across the line. you may as well rate Desert Orchid through Yahoo as try to make empirical sense of a race where every other horse was beaten pointless 3f from home. Frankel could well have run to 147-150 on weights and measures if Queally had gone earlier. Or , he may have shot his bolt , come back to his field and run to 125. Who knows?
Best horse ever BTW. |
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a lot of horses have had inflated rating in the last dozen years or so,
with a few obvious exceptions, they can't all have been superstars ! |
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New Approach underrated IMO.
Sea the Stars over rated Frankel underrated at present. May never get to show its true supremacy like Big Bucks' |
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where does excelebrations rating come from? is purely based on frankels? his races without frankel arent v special at all.
rock of gibraltar was twice the horse he is imo and TF have them rated the same.  |
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is New Approach under rated (in your view) because of his success at stud by any chance ?!
(answer is of course no) |
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HipPriest
03 Jul 12 15:58 Joined: 02 Jul 12 | Topic/replies: 30 | Blogger: HipPriest's blog New Approach underrated IMO. Sea the Stars over rated Frankel underrated at present. May never get to show its true supremacy like Big Bucks' he would if they upped him in trip. the fact remains hes taking up easy engagements when there are sterner tests out there. |
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How does a horses stud performance affect his BHA rating?
I am saying that out of a very good crop of horses - NA, Ravens Pass, Henrythenavigatior , Twice Over he was the best. That was a very good 3yo vintage. |
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why dont u feel the same way about sea the stars given he just did enough?
frankel is completely diff to sts and big bucks, hes not the type that just 'does enough'. |
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Sorry, been out.
Marcce. The 2 races you refer to you really should research more. In the St James Palace the ground turned heavy during the day. The race was then the last race on the card. Sparkler was 2nd and among his 14 wins he won several at Group 1 including the Lockinge, Queen Anne and Prix Moulin easily beating the considered unbeatable French 1973 2000gns winner by 3 lengths. He won easily in Munich and broke the course record in Deauville. After meeting BG in the QE11 1972 he ran only once more that season finishing 2nd to Gift Card. Gift Card had finished 2nd in the French 1972 2000 Gns and 3rd in the Prix Lupin, both Group 1's, before beating Sparkler 1/2 length. In 1973 Gift Card won 3 times from 5 starts including the Prince of Wales Stakes at Royal Ascot beating Scottish Rifle who was unbeaten that season and who then won the Eclipse afterwards. Also in the race, St James Palace, was Ballyhot who had finished 2nd to Linden Tree, 2nd in the Derby to Mill Reef, and won his maiden. He ran twice more that season winning both. In the 2nd he beat Magic Flute. She was hot favourite for the 1000 Guineas and Geoff Lewis's selection instead of Altesse Royale. Magic Flute never ran to form in the 1000 Gns and finished 4th. Altesse Royale won the 1000 Gns then the Oaks and Irish Oaks then retired. Magic Flute won next time and won the Coronation Stakes at Royal Ascot in an absolute canter. Ballyhot then beat her 4 lengths. First time out the next season Ballhot ran against BG again, this time at Sandown. BG, who was having a prep run for the Eclipse where he was due to meet Mill Reef, had nine days previously won the Lockinge giving 27lbs to the 2nd favourite in the 2000 Gns and winner of 2 Guineas trials by 5 lengths and 6 lengths. BG was giving Ballhot a stone and BG won by an easy 1/2 length. Joe Mercer knew the Prince of Wales was only 2 weeks away so gave him as easy a race as possible. The third horse was Pembroke Castle who had just beaten Ortis who then won the King George by 6 lengths with Pembroke Castle in 2nd place. Brigadier Gerard had just given him a stone and an easy beating. Ballyhot was then sold to race in France and next time out finished 3rd in the Group 1 Prix Jean Prat won by Riverman who had previously won the French 2000 Gns (1972) and was never beaten by a French horse. Riverman then finished 3rd in the King George behind BG and 2nd in the Champion Stakes behind GB. The 2nd horse in the Jean Prat, just in front of Ballyhot, was Sharapour who was beaten 4 lengths in the Arc with both the English and French Derby winners immediately behind him. Is that enough to keep you going? |
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To put the record straight and to show the St James Palace wasn't his true form Brigadier Gerard met Sparkler in the 1972 QE11 gave him 7lbs and beat him 6 lengths in course record time. They were level at the furlong pole.
To put it into perspective Brigadier Gerard had just won the Eclipse on heavy ground, the King Georg over 12f and was eaten in the Benson & Hedges giving 11lbs to that years Derby winner. He dropped back to a mile and bolted up. Just imagine how many people would be lining up to lay him today dropping back from 12f to a mile. Phenomenal achievement and he beat the course record by nearly a second. |
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^^what he said^^
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im still not convinced.
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In the Queen Anne Frankel bt Side Glance by 11 lengths. According to Timeform 11 lengths equals 30lb.
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Brigust what's all this level at the furlong pole stuff?
Exactly what is that meant to show or prove? Quite frankly, I have no wish to research the races I've referred to in any depth. It just isn't important to me which horse is rated the best ever because as I keep saying it's a pointless exercise until someone comes up with a surefire way that all horses of all eras are rated by exactly the same methods. And when that has been sorted out, a decision would then have to be made as to whether versatility over different distances should count for more than absolute brilliance over one trip. As a case in point, if I was to take your analysis of Brigadier Gerard's performances literally he would have to be rated at 180 or something! |
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In the Queen Anne Frankel beat Side Glance 11 lengths.
That makes Side Glance a 117 horse and Frankel a 147 horse. Explained by Timeform on the Morning Line. Sparkler was a 130 tated horse that puts him 13lbs or 4 1/2 lengths in front of Side Glance. Brigadier Gerard beat Sparkler by 6 lengths. That puts Brigadier Gerard at least 10 1/2 lengths in front of Side Glance. Brigadier Gerard gave Sparkler 7lbs. That puts Brigadier Gerard 13 lengths in front of Side Glance. It took Frankel 3 furlongs flat out to put 11 lengths on Side Glance and it only took 1 furlong for Brigadier Gerard to put 6 lengths on Sparkler. Dress it up any way you want Frankel is not a better horse than Brigadier Gerard. |
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im kidding of course Brig. u nearly have me convinced BG is as good as sts, nearly!
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Marcce I am simply pointing out the quality of the opposition Brigadier Gerard faced. When he was running there were only half the number of Group 1's so everybody had to turn up to win one. Unlike todat when many of the Group 1's are hardly that.
Ilike, I liked STS I just wished they had given him the opportunity to show his true worth as a 4 year old, and as it worked out he may well have had a clean sweep. Stupid sending him to stud just when his reputation had reached its peak. In my opinion of course. |
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Brigust I do find your posts interesting and often informative but that last one is simplistic nonsense I'm afraid.
It doesn't matter in the slightest which part of a race where the winning distance is established. And you've unwittingly hit the nail on the head there because the thing that is setting Frankel apart from his modern day rivals is that he is keeping up at top speed for far longer than they can. To be honest I'm going to stop responding now because this clearly matters so much more to you than just being able to appreciate 2 wonderful racehorses. |
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I'm referring to the 17.48 post obviously.
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yes i agree, all horses should be forced to race until 4 imo. not that u could ever force anyone but u know...
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Marcce my complaint has always been that I do not believe Frankel, at this moment in time, can be rated the 'best horse ever' by Timeform. I have repeatedly stated that Frankel is a great horse and I have no qualms him being rated the same but to rate him better is a step too far in my opinion. And I haven't even started about Sea Bird 11.
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And to call 'form' simplistic nonsense is silly.
I have posted on here on numerous occasions and never, repeat never put down the bare facts about the Queen Anne. Yet Timeform are on The Morning Line telling everyone who wants to listen. all about it. I am simply using their figures, not mine. So it is their figures you are calling simplistic nonsense. And no, it doesn't matter how long it took Frankel to put 11 lengths on Side Glance but that is exactly what everyone is saying is outstanding. But what does matter is that had Brigadier Gerard passed Sparkler further out he would have beaten him further. In Frankel's other 'greatest race' it may be worth pointig out that Dubawi Gold was rated 105 when Frankel beat him 6 lengths in the 2000 Gns. Sparkler was rated 130 when Brigadier Gerard gave him 7lbs and beat him 6 lengths in the QE11. At least it must make you think ffs. |
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I think there is a danger of taking this too seriously. As far as I can recall back in the 70s there was an appreciation of Brigadier Gerard and Mill Reef as great horses and plenty of anticipation of a second clash but there was no daily hype machine. It wasn't needed. The likes of Mellish and Hislop are merely bigging-up today's heroes as a means to sell the sport - for them it would not do to say things were that much better 40 years ago. So many are guilty of it - we now have the suggestion that Spain are the best football team ever. Yes, comparatively speaking they have some decent players but to compare any of them with the likes of Pele is laughable.
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why not take this too seriously ?!
there is money involved in assumptions and assertions, ratings and numbers cost punters money all year round ! |
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Differentdrum I love racing and I love great horses. I have absolutely no problem with a new 'great' joining the bunch. Fantastic. But Timeform, in their infinite wisdom had to go that one step too far. They rate Brigadier Gerard 144 and Mill Reef 141. I think Mill Reef and Brigadier Gerard should be equal along with Sea Bird 11 and Dancing Brave. Outstanding horses should just be given a gold rating that doesn't actually mean a rating. A Gold club if you wish. It stops any arguments or disputes and everyone is happy. Frankel should be given a gold club possible membership to be confirmed at the end of the season. Everyone would be happy with that and it moves the promotion of flat racing forward.
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got to go stateside to be remembered as a great
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It is arrant nonsense to say that Frankel is held down as an all time great through quality of opposition or the fact that he has stuck to a mile so far. Shergar was dominant in a crap year and was basically a 1m4f specialist. No one claims that he wasn't one of the all time greats. Ditto Dayjur over sprint trips. As I have said earlier Frankel could earn a rating of 145 racing against opposition rated 45. That's the whole point of the ratings.
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And someone posted the idea that they are 'ducking' So You Think. Absoluely laughable.
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Brigust it's simplistic nonsense for this reason and I'm referring to the taking 3 furlongs to put 11 lengths on Side Glance nonsense here.
In just about all of his races so far we don't know what Frankel would have done to something that's been level with him at the furlong pole. You know why? Because nothing has been anywhere near him at that stage of the race. And my point is quite simple. Frankel seems to do his damage between the 3 pole and the 1 pole. He sustains a speed that his rivals can only briefly match. And when we're talking about Frankel's other "greatest" races how about last season's QE11 where people seem to conveniently forget both he and Excelebration thrashed the Group 1 winning Immortal Verse whose previous 2 races had seen her win the Coronation and beat Goldikova in France in a race that contained no fewer than 6 previous and subsequent Group 1 winners. But of course neither of them have beaten anything at all of note have they? |
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Marcce, I'm not going to start knocking horses just to please you. My point is that I do not think Frankel has earned the right to be the greatest ever. And actually if you want the truth Frankel only put 7 - 8 lengths on Side Glance in 3 furlongs. The pace quickened about then and Side Glance was already well behind him and they both ran to the line.
Immortal Verse sat last in the QE11, the wrong place to be when you know Frankel is going to kick on 3 out. She made ground just at the wrong time when the pace was quickening and just held on for 3rd in front of Dubawi Gold. I've dealt with Dubawi Gold above. You may think Frankel is the greatest ever, and you may be basing that on your experiences, that is up to you. All I am saying is that although Frankel is a great racehorse at this moment in time he is not the greatest. In my opinion. |
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pebbles and pat would be sat on the snaff going into the final furlong
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