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Mellish & Hislop. I am not blind, thank you.
Mellish & Hislop. I am not blind, thank you.
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brigust1 05 Aug 12 17:48 And I am accused of being miopic ffs . And then when I put forward what Brigadier Gerard has achieved that Frankel hasn't and won't achieve and I'm accused of scraping the bottom of the barrel. One thing is for sure nothing, I repeat nothing Frankel has done so far Brigadier Gerard couldn't have done at least as easily. You can try all you like to pull him apart and find all of the obscure reasons you can to denegrate him but so far Frankel has not achieved what Brigadier Gerard achieved. And Soft Pawn you are talking rubbish about Mill Reef and My Swallow. Timeform couldn't keep My Swallow on a high rating after his defeat by Faraway Son because Brigadier Gerard easily beat that horse in the Sussex Stakes so they had to down grade My Swallow. Nothing whatsoever to do with his Guineas defeat by Mill Reef. And how on earth do you know Mill Reef wouldn't have been a 140 miler? Are you suggesting Mill Reef couldn't have won the races Brigadier Gerard won? Because if you are you are certainly in a huge minority. Then you go on to compare a race Frankel won as a 2 year old and an Irish Derby winner with the Mill Reef 2000 Guineas. Ffs Mill Reef won the Derby, Eclipse by 4 lengths, King George by 6 lengths, Arc by 3 lengths, Prix Ganay by 10 lengths and the Coronation Cup. Search though all of Frankels opponents when you have the time and tell me which one measures up to that. Its not me who is miopic. Well, where do we begin. Do I think Mill Reef couldn't have done what Brigadier Gerard done? Thank you Brigust you answered that one yourself, because Faraway Son beat My Swallow 5L, something Mill Reef couldn't do, If he was then he'd have beat Brigadier Gerard 2L in the Guineas. Ahh you say, Brigadier Gerard easily beat Faraway Son. So where does that put Mill Reef as a miler? Does beating a truely great middle horse by 3L over a mile, make that the greatest performance ever? This is where your arguments fail Brigust, you're taking a horses highest TF rating and thinking that if BG beats that individual no matter the conditions, trip etc, to be plain fact. The truth is Brigadier Gerard put up some fantastic performances, but he was beaten and on several occasions was run very very close by no more that decent G1 horses. Frankel is yet to be truly tested, admittedly he is yet to race beyond a mile, that will come, hopefully against tried and trusted G1 middle distance horses in the Juddmonte and Champion Stakes. Then perhaps we can drawn definitive conclusions as to the relative merits of BG and Frankel. |
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Cut a little slack SP. You are so driven in trying to prove Frankel is better than Brigadier Gerard when no-one can. It is an unknown. I don't know and you don't know. In fact by trying to bring down Brigadier Gerard you are actually also bringing down Frankel. If Brigadier Gerard wasn't so good then how good does that make Frankel? I am just telling you the form. I am not claiming one is better than the other. I have my views but I don't know and the formlines certainly don't tell you. So cut a little slack. Discuss the positive merits ffs.
And try to remember I am only responding to what you are saying SP. I never brought up Treasure Beach, you did. I never brought up whether Mill Reef would be any good over a mile, you did. I am only responding to what you are claiming. Perhaps I should just leave you to your claims and statements? If Frankel is rated higher than BG that is up to the raters, not me. Whether I believe them or not is up to me just as if BG was rated higher than Frankel whether you believed them or not is up to you. Any information I put is hopefully to answer any questions anyone has about the relative merits of BG and his successes and failures. I see that as a good thing not being miopic.If anyon can point out where I am being biased please show me. About Mill Reef and Faraway Son. You obviously have no knowledge of the frm at the time but Mill Reef after winning the Derby dropped back in trip to 10f in the Eclipse and beat Caro. Caro had run against Faraway Son in their 2000 Gns and was beaten but won the race in the stewards room. So Caro and Faraway Son were just about the same horse. Except that over 10f Caro was better, Faraway Son only stayed a mile. Brigadier Gerard beat Faraway Son 5 lengths so I think it would be fair to say Mill Reef would have beaten Faraway Son by at least 4 lengths. After all you think Frankel will be just as good at 10f as a mile so I have every right to think Mill Reef would be just as good over a mile as 10 furlngs. In fact I have more proof than you because Mill Reef did win at 5 furlongs, 6 furlongs and 7 furlongs after all. As I said Mill Reef would have done exactly what Brigadier Gerard did I am certain of that. In fact had BG not been born Mill Reef would be the horse Frankel is being compared with only he would never be considered as good, at this moment in time. Without BG Mill Reef would have won the Guineas, Derby, Eclipse, King George, Arc, Ganay and Coronation Cup before injury intervened. That is something Frankel will never, ever do. When you try to employ direct comparisons in form such as My Swallow's defeat by Faraway Son you fail to take into consideration that My Swallow had just been beaten for the first time life after 8 consecutive victores in the toughest Guineas most people believe has ever been run. He was then beaten half a length in the July Cup so some believe he hadn't trained on and some believe he never got over his defeat in the Guineas. It happens. And you brought up Treasure Beach, I didn't. You conveniently forget in that race Treasure Beach was beaten by Klammer a 108 rated horse. So as TB was a 120 rated horse how does that figure in the scheme of things? And look upon it in the same way you looked at Mill Reef and My Swallow, these thing happen. And you can criticise and pick holes in Brigadier Gerard's form if you wish because you are obviously miopic about Frankel but only one organisation has Frankel on that rating and by popular consensus they are skewed to say the least. Even the BHA don't have him above Dancing Brave yet. Try to gain from the experience. At least when questioned about Frankel and Brigadier Gerard, if you ever are, you can answer those questions honestly and informed, I see nothing wrong with that. |
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I bet you something, if you asked 100 trainers if next season they would rather train a Frankel or a Sea Bird 11 that all 100 would say the latter.
All 100 ? On what basis ? I can't agree with that Brigust. |
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OK Andrew that is only my opinion what percentage do you think it would be?
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It's all hypothetical anyway Brigust, but in my honest opinion, the majority vote would be for Frankel, although that wouldn't mean they necessarily thought he was the better horse.
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It wasn't about which horse Andrew, it was a Frankel or a Sea Bird 11. Not the actual horse. Does that make a difference?
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Difficult one to weigh-up the Caro & Faraway Son thing. You say they were about the same horse, which maybe they were in the the spring of 1970 when they raced in the French 2000, after that Caro was campaigned over longer trips and difficult to say what level they are at relative to each other over different trips.
Mill Reef beat Caro similar distance in the Arc as well, so that would seem fair by TF to rate Mill Reef low 140's. If as you say Faraway Son & Caro were about the same that would suggest Brigadier Gerard's TF figure of 144 would also seem fair, although at revised WFA terms you could credit the French horses as deserving slightly higher ratings, I haven't got their TF ratings to hand but think they were both around low 130's. All that being the case, as Brigadier Gerard beat Mill Reef easy 3L in Guineas difficult to say that Mill Reef was as good over a mile as over 10/12F. Going into to the Royal Lodge Klammer had official rating 99, Treasure Beach 97 so in beating Treasure Beach 0.75L Klammer did exactly what the OR suggested. Treasure Beach has obviously improved with experience and distance. Unfortunatly Klammer has only raced once since, winning the Horris Hill next time out. He may well have turned out into a an even better horse himself but for injury. That Royal Lodge turned out a better race that it seemed at the time with TB winning Irish Derby, Klammer winning G3 next time and even Slim Shady has really found his niche in America winning a G2 contest there. |
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Caro was rated 133 and Faraway Son rated 130.
From Timeform Racehorse '71. Caro. Until he was slammed by Mill Reef in the Eclipse Stakes, Caro was widely regarded a the best horse in Europe at around a mile and a quarter. Certainly those who saw him win the Prix d'Harcourt, the Prix Ganay and Prix Dollar on his first three outings in 1971 were greatly impressed by the style of his victories. That there could be a horse in the world as much as four lengths superior at a mile and a quarter seemed inconcievable at the time. Faraway Son. In five top class races from the end of June to the end of October Faraway Son was beaten only once - by Brigadier Gerard in the Sussex stakes at Goodwood. In fact, over distances that suited him, Faraway Son suffered only two defeats all season, the other being at the hands of Dictus (Brigadier Gerard beat him 8 lengths in the Queen Elizabeth 11 Stakes) who beat him by a short neck in the Prix d'Every at Maisons Laffitte in March when both horses were having their first race of the season. Mill Reef. Mill Reef's career as a three year old fulfilled all that had been presaged by the best of his performances of the previous season. In winning the 1970 Gimcrack Mill Reef had returned by far the most impressive display by a two year old all that year; he was never off the bridle, pulled his way to the front inside the last two furlongs and strode home ten lengths clear in a manner that had to be seen to be believed. This on top of the eight length win on the bit in the Coventry Stakes suggested that an exceptional horse had arrived on the scene. Except for losing the 2000 Guineas to Brigadier Gerard, Mill Reef went through the second season unbeaten. In the four races after the Guineas Mill Reef never appeared in any danger of defeat. Without doubt the record not merely of a good horse but a brilliant one. If Mill Reef was such an exceptional horse how did he ever come to be beaten as a three year old? Our answer would be that 1971 was a very unusual year in England; there were two brilliant horse trained in the country at the same time. Whether Mill Reef's best performances equalled the best of Brigadier Gerard's is a moot point, for it is extremely difficult to set a true value on Brigadier Gerard's wide margin wins from top class horses. |
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brigust1 06 Aug 12 08:46 Cut a little slack SP. You are so driven in trying to prove Frankel is better than Brigadier Gerard when no-one can. It is an unknown. I don't know and you don't know. brigust1 05 Aug 12 17:48 One thing is for sure nothing, I repeat nothing Frankel has done so far Brigadier Gerard couldn't have done at least as easily.  Warning: debating with brigust1 could seriously affect your mental health. |
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He knows the Brigs form inside out i'll give him that
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Treasure beach was beat by frankel at 2 tho, and over a mile. if frankel could beat the derby Irish winner over the derby trip, then i'd be impressed. isnt that how we measure the ability? u dont use races over a mile at 2 when talking about beating derby winners imo.
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It's getting to the point now where you have to question Brig's sanity.
How long can he keep up this remorseless and blinkered defence of the indefensible? |
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not that im not already impressed by Frankels achievements
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i think both sides are as good/bad as each other. hes passionate about his horse racing. good to see some intelligent debate on the form for once! neither will ever be proved right but isnt this part the fun bit?these mythical races, breaking down form and ratings, this is what the forum should be all about, not abuse!
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I know but FFS its driving him insane now.
you can't have it both ways - you can't argue that BG's form is so utterly conclusive that it brooks no argument and then rubbish all Frankel's form. Thread will lead to mental problems IMO |
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Hip, do you not think BG would have won the races Frankel won? That's all I said after all. Considering there is supposed to be nothing between Frankel and Brigadier Gerard on the ratings with Frankel, according to Timeform, rated better then the achievements of Brigadier Gerard only enhance any thoughts you have about Frankel. They are not detrimental at all.
And for anyone to suggest I have mental problems because I am passionate about a racehorses achievements when they then read some of the posts they have made over the last week or so should look in a mirror. This is a horse racing forum where racehorses, past and present can be discussed. I make no apologies for that. |
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I do not think BG would have won Frankel's Guineas as far as Frankel did , I do not think BG would have beaten Zoffany after that Queally **** up and I do not think BG would have done to Canford Cliffs what Frankel did.
These are only my opinions I cannot prove them and I will not be trying. I don't think you have mental problems I just think you'd be bloody awful company for dinner as you are incapable of empathising or understanding any views that do not support your own. that is I suppose a form of madness. |
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Brigust you are without doubt, relentless. you take all comers on and completely wear them down
The whole debate, while in parts interesting, is futile, can you not just enjoy frankel, as you no doubt enjoyed the Brigadier. Have you seen a movie called Equus, Starring Richard Burton, I really think you would enjoy it. I HOPE THE FCUK FRANKEL NEVER GETS BEAT |
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I started this thread Hip & Motley if you don't want to read it you don't have to. I'm not stopping you running your business Hip and this is only one thread in thousands and, can you believe it, it's about champion racehorses. I have been on this forum for over 10 years and in all of that time I have never discussed either Frankel or Brigadier gerard. I think it is apt to discuss it now because Frankel only has a couple of races to run. I would go on the other threads but many of them are just mindless and idiotic. So I enjoy horseracing and form, you may think that is insane well, as you say, that is your opinion and you are welcome to it.
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Just adding the occasional post brig, as are others too, to add some balance and to
show, other opinions are available. I admire your passion for racing, long may it continue. Do watch that film if you can, it's all about passion, passion for a horse, not sure you will like the ending though. Ta |
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Any positive, non insulting comments are welcome Motley.
And Hip, you probably won't be reading this because you will be reading the really interesting threads on this forum but to think BG couldn't have beaten 113 rated Dubawi Gold by 6 lengths with a 115 rated horse half a length in third is just silly. BG won his Guineas beating a 140 rated horse and a 135 rated horse with a 123 rated horse 9 lengths back in fourth. In fact on ratings, and that is all we have to go by, the 4th horse in BG's Guineas would have beaten Dubawi Gold by 4 lengths and finished only 2 lengths behind Frankel. The clues are there. |
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I did Equus for English A level.
The film is ok but read the play. Same bloke what wrote Amadeua. |
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*Amadeus
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Brig, that's thinly veiled now, vile insulting comments, don't go there. We have sorted that out.
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HipPriest • August 8, 2012 10:29 AM BST
I do not think BG would have won Frankel's Guineas as far as Frankel did , I do not think BG would have beaten Zoffany after that Queally **** up and I do not think BG would have done to Canford Cliffs what Frankel did. Very good Priest....... that's made my day..... |
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Nothing thinly veiled anywhere Motley. That was a genuine comment, made honestly.
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Opinions Farrier - as I said in my rider which you didn't seem able to cut and paste.
You should try having some - its very liberating. |
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BG was without doubt one of the greats, but I think that in time Frankel will be considered to be the better horse, even though it's obviously difficult comparing horses of differing generations. My first visit to a racecourse was to back Jacinth in the 1000 gns (finished 2nd)and I have seen MANY of the greats since (although not BG). Most of us remember the distant past with fondness (the good old days etc) but often a nostalgia trip is clouded by looking at the situation with rose tinted glasses. It's possible that Brigust is the same as far as BG is concerned, but I do not wish to offend him and of course he is entitled to his opinion that I respect.
Out of curiosity, I checked times of all the races that BG and Frankel ran in as 3 and 4 year olds (I don't think they ran in the same 2 yr old races). Whilst times are never conclusive for several reasons, the following table makes interesting reading in that of all the races they both ran in, Frankel comes out best in ALL of them, although I think we should forget the SJP as far as BG is concerned as it was heavy that day. 2000 GUINEAS FRANKEL 1.37.30 BRIGADIER GERARD 1.39.20 ST JAMES PALACE FRANKEL 1.39.24 BRIGADIER GERARD 1.46.94 SUSSEX FRANKEL 1.37.47 and 1.37.56 BRIGADIER GERARD 1.41.11 QE 11 FRANKEL 1.39.45 BRIGADIER GERARD 1.41.39 and 1.39.96 LOCKINGE FRANKEL 1.38.14 BRIGADIER GERARD 1.41.44 |
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You are indeed correct about the SJP Andrew it was on heavy ground.
The Guineas was run on good ground, was BG's first run of the season and of course he wasn't in control of the pace. The Sussex was run on soft ground, after 2 days of rain the meeting was in doubt but the sun shone on Sussex day. The QE11 of 2012 if I remember correctly was run on the straight course. And the Lockinge was BG's (as it was Frankel's) first run of the season. Frankel did have a racecourse gallop and BG's whole 4 year old year was planned around a meeting with Mill Reef in the Eclipse so he wasn't fully wound up. He still gave 22lbs and a 2 and a half length beating to the second horse who had already won two Guineas trials by 6 lengths and 5 lengths. Plus he ran again 9 days later over 10 furlongs at Sandown and he carried 5lb more than Frankel. I hope that answers your questions. Of coure your opinion is welcome Andrew whether or not I agree with you makes no odds. I simply put down the facts so that anyone reading this thread can form their own opinions. |
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Brigust - he wan't offering opinions.
He was , quite politely , offering a series of facts whih to this reader tend to suggest that by any emprical measure Frankel is the superior beast of the two over a mile. I know you find this difficult to deal with but to my mind times are a far more reliable yardstik (for all their flaws) than the futile task of comparing form lines that are 40 years apart. Your response is sniffily dismossive and just makes you look even more blinkered. |
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Andrew times can be deceptive because courses have changed over the years and possibly timing has as well. When the distances of a couple of BG's races were checked officially they showed that in the Goodwood Mile BG actually won by 14 lengths and not 10, the QE11 of 1971 was won by 10 lengths not the 8 he was given and in the B&H at York when BG was beaten the 3rd and 4th horses were beaten 17 lengths not the 10 given. But they are just points in a puzzle.
About racecourses though things have changed with drainage etc, and even at Newmarket the now cut the grass during the meetings that is something they never used to do. It is all so much more scientific now. The new course at Ascot has been graded and the grasses sown are designed to intertwine, progress they call it. I think you should read his post again Hip and try to have an open mind will you. None of the facts I posted are anything other than facts if you have something material to add please do so but you keep criticising me and this thread yet for some reason you keep coming onto it adding nothing at all. |
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Brigust using your analysis you must accept your statement that Mill Reef was as good over a mile as he was over 10/12F is in fact erroneous.
You say, based on their run in the French 2000 that Caro and Faraway Son were roughly the same horse, fair enough statement if you accept that they maintained the same level of form or improved at similar rate from 3 to 4. You say that only real difference between the two is that Faraway Son was only a miler but Caro could stay middle distances, so I guess we can infer from this that Caro never improved for a step up to 10+F but was able to maintain his level of form. If you accept they were the same then Brigadier Gerard 5L win over Faraway Son over a mile is a few lbs better that Mill Reefs 4L win over Caro which is perhaps reflected in BG 144 and Mill Reef 141. This being so one would expect Brigdier Gerard to be only about 1L better over a mile than Mill Reef. The flaw in your statement is that BG easily beat MR by 3L when they met, also I think it's probably fair to say Brigadier Gerard having seasonal debut probably showed improved form over a mile later in his career and so probably never ran to 144 then. This at the most optimistic rating puts the race fit Mill Reef at mid 130's over a mile, probably less, in fact somewhere in the Canford Cliffs/Excelebration area over mile. That still makes Mill Reef a terrific miler probably a multiple G1 winner over a mile, but clearly using you opinion that Faraway Son and Caro are about the same disproves your theory that Mill Reef was as good over a mile than over 10/12F. |
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Even if you take into account the changes Brigust mentions those are big time differences.
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SP do you think Frankel would win over 6f, 10f and possibly 12f? The rest of your statement is total nonsense you are better than that. You suggest Mill Reef would be low 130's over a mile that is too ridiculous to even discuss when you consider Mill Reef ran 8 times over a mile and less and only 6 times over further. Two of which were over 10f.
If you want to be pedantic why don't we take Brigadier Gerard out of the 2000Gns and make Mill Reef the winner by tree quarters of a length. That alone, with My Swallow rated 135 makes him a 137 rated horse. And if you look at the 4th horse who was 6 lengths behind mill Reef was rated 123. So Mill Reef beat a 123 rated horse by 6 lengths in the 1971 2000 Gns. Frankel beat a 113 rated horse 6 lengths in the 2011 20000 Gns. You work it out. The 1971 2000 Guineas WITHOUT Brigadier Gerard. 1st. Mill Reef 2nd. My Swallow rated 135. 3rd. Minsky rated 123. Distances 3/4 length and 5 lengths. 2011 2000 Gns. 1st. Frankel. 2nd. Dubawi Gold rated 113. 3rd. Native Khan rated 115. Distances 6 lengths and 1/2 length. If you calculate using My Swallow: My Swallow rated 22lb higher than Dubawi Gold using Timeform ratings/calculations of 2.73 per length means: Mill Reef would have beaten Frankel by 2+ lengths. If you calculate using Minsky: Misnky rated 10lb higher than Dubawi Gold means Mill Reef would have beaten Frankel by 3 lengths. And of course Brigadier Gerard finished 3 lengths in front of Mill Reef. You work it out. |
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I thought My Swallow's rating was reduced to 132 as a 3yo?
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It was Figgis because he was beaten twice more after the 2000 Gns. Once when 2nd to Faraway Son in France and the other when 2nd in the July Cup. Minsky never ran again so his rating stood and through Minsky he ran to 136. If you want to use My Swallows final rating that is OK just knock a length off. But I think the 2000 Gns was his best race of 1971, only my opinion of course.
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if we just go by times sts wouldve smashed frankel in his guineas.
sts also clocked a faster guineas, eclipse and arc than dancing brave. he also holds the course record in the juddmonte and the eclipse. hes the greatest i tell you! |
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Times are too confusing on turf, I'm sure they have a place but as yet I don't know what that is.
For example at Royal Ascot two races over the same corse and distance within 40 mins of each other produced a result that cannot be relied upon. Dandy Boy beat Waffle in the Wokingham. Neither has even won or been placed in a Listed race. Yet they finished with a time faster than the Queens Jubilee where Black Caviar beat Moonlight Cloud a whisker and they have won multiple Group 1's between them. Add to that both the Wokingham horses carried more weight than the two Jubilee horses. It would take a huge imagination to think either Dandy Boy or Waffle would beat either Black Caviar or Moonlight Cloud. Therein lies the problem. So how you can compare races of different years, let alone on the same day, defies belief. |
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indeed.
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HipPriest • August 8, 2012 1:01 PM BST
Opinions Farrier - as I said in my rider which you didn't seem able to cut and paste. You should try having some - its very liberating. Wearing womens underwear is said to be very liberating Priest......and can also make you look just as silly..... |