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Mellish & Hislop. I am not blind, thank you.
Mellish & Hislop. I am not blind, thank you.
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Brigust, I have never tried to downgrade Brigadier Gerard in any way, I have been complimentary to him I regard him as one of the greats I've said that on numerous occasions. Yes I did see him but as I've said before only vague recollection as I was only about 10 at that time and was only just beginning my interest in racing. I have seen a number of his races on video and have read about his exploits.
It's the constant belittling of Frankel's opponents while at the same time not putting some of Brigadier Gerards opponents under the same scrutiny. You say he has beaten poor opposition I say to date in a 12 race career Frankel has beaten the winners of the following G1 races. Ascot Gold Cup King George & Queen Elizabeth Stakes Ecipse Stakes Irish Derby Secretariat Stakes Prix Morny X2 Middle Park Stakes July Cup Betfred Sprint Prix de la Foret Criterium International Irish 200 Guineas X2 Prix du Moulin de Longchamp Queen Elizabeth II Stakes Prix Jean Prat Coronation Stakes Prix Jacques le Marois Champagne Stakes(Aus) Sires Produce Stakes(Aus) Caulfield Guineas(Aus) Asashi Hai Futurity NHK Mile Cup Prix Jean-Luc Lagardere X2 Racing Post Trophy National Stakes Phoenix Park Stakes Primio Roma Premio Vittoria da Capua X2 St.James's Palace Stakes Sussex Stakes Lockinge Stakes Queen Anne Stakes Plus the winners of countless other G2/3 races. If you ignore his racecourse debut and the farce of the St Jame's Palace Frankel has DESTROYED with ease the winners of all those important races, it should also be remembered that Frankel has scared away many credible horses that could have enhanced his record/reputation. It will very interesting to see what turns up in the Juddmonte or Champion Stakes, I'm guessing it wont involve a Triple Crown winner. |
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Soft Pawn I'm certainly going to get into a 'my stick is bigger than yours' game. Suffice it to say BG won 12 Group 1's in his 18 races so I'm pretty sure he beat a few classic winners as well as Group 1 winners. After all it is Frankel who Timeform rate the best so you have them on your side and so he should have beaten some race winners, don't you think.
And I repeat for the umpteenth time I think Frankel is a great racehorse I just don't think, on what he has achieved, he should be rated HIGHER than Brigadier Gerard. I see nothing wrong with that. I am not, like some, saying BG should be rated higher than Frankel because I don't know and I don't think you know and I don't think Timeform know. You may think he is and that is you right as it is my right to my opinion but what I am saying, whether you like it or not, is that he won over a wider range of distances, on a wider range of goings and beat a better class of racehorse when doing it. You may think that is nit picking, you may think that is churlish but they are the facts and I am defending the underdog don't forget. And I don't think even you can deny that. |
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....but it's Brigadier Gerard that everyone sees as the yardstick. It is Timeform's job to assess and collate horses and give them a rating according to the form on show. Brigadier Gerard's 3L win over Mill Reef is undeniably brilliant form, but was Mill Reef was a 140 rated miler he certainly was over middle distances. The Brig however proved on many occasions that he was a brilliant racehorse and if Timeform rate him at 144 and they have plenty of evidence to base that on, then fine.
They have rated Frankel at 147 though that is a figure that can be adjusted down later. It's the crushing manner of victory over proven horses like Excelebration and Canford Cliffs that they arrive at their conclusions. If we think of Frankel at 147 and we think of him as being lets say 5/6L superior to CC & Excel then that would mean Excel & CC are somwhere around low/mid 130's, which I would suggest is a reasonable assumption as CC won 5 consecutive G1's and Excel although only 1 G1 has defeated a number of previous G1 winners. Therefore Timeform are entitled to rate Frankel at 3lb better. We can all pick and choose different bits of form to suit our own ends. We could pick Frankel's 10L drubbing of an Irish Derby winner and say that puts him in the 150's, then again you have to weight up it was over a mile, a trip that wouldn't have seen Treasure Beach in the best light and that's the argument that can be leveled at BG Guineas win over Mill Reef, was Mill Reef capable of 140 at a mile, clearly not as My Swallow a 130 rated animal was only half a length away. |
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And I am accused of being miopic ffs . And then when I put forward what Brigadier Gerard has achieved that Frankel hasn't and won't achieve and I'm accused of scraping the bottom of the barrel.
One thing is for sure nothing, I repeat nothing Frankel has done so far Brigadier Gerard couldn't have done at least as easily. You can try all you like to pull him apart and find all of the obscure reasons you can to denegrate him but so far Frankel has not achieved what Brigadier Gerard achieved. And Soft Pawn you are talking rubbish about Mill Reef and My Swallow. Timeform couldn't keep My Swallow on a high rating after his defeat by Faraway Son because Brigadier Gerard easily beat that horse in the Sussex Stakes so they had to down grade My Swallow. Nothing whatsoever to do with his Guineas defeat by Mill Reef. And how on earth do you know Mill Reef wouldn't have been a 140 miler? Are you suggesting Mill Reef couldn't have won the races Brigadier Gerard won? Because if you are you are certainly in a huge minority. Then you go on to compare a race Frankel won as a 2 year old and an Irish Derby winner with the Mill Reef 2000 Guineas. Ffs Mill Reef won the Derby, Eclipse by 4 lengths, King George by 6 lengths, Arc by 3 lengths, Prix Ganay by 10 lengths and the Coronation Cup. Search though all of Frankels opponents when you have the time and tell me which one measures up to that. Its not me who is miopic. |
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Brigust, you say that BG's 2000 Guineas was the best performance you've ever seen and obviously you're entitled to your view, but back to rating the race, if you think it was worthy of 144, does that mean you think My Swallow ran to around 135 or 136? It seems difficult to believe that when looking at his 3yo career and your own acknowledgement that he never trained on.
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Figgis Brigadier Gerard was rated 141 at the end on '71 so My Swallow according to Timeform calculations ran to 130 or 131 and he finished the season on 132. If you read what I said it is percieved he hadn't trained on and with so few Group 1 opportunities for milers, Brigadier Gerard was obviously better, they sent him to stud. It was after the July Cup after all so well into July by then. Whether he trained on or not I don't know because it was expected Mill Reef would beat him albeit narrowly. I think he was such a highly rated horse and head of the Free handicap as a 2 year old they only had something to lose and nothing much to gain.
So Figgis what is the best race you have ever seen? |
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Brigust, no I mean you personally rated it the best performance you've seen, which would mean that My Swallow ran to a high figure?
Best race I've ever seen? I'm not sure, I only go back as far as '85, Dancing Brave's Arc in '86 was probably the most exciting race to watch and still is when looking back now. At the time though I was pretty new to the game and believed that the form of the race was much better than it looks to me today. Best performance I've seen? I don't use collateral ratings I use time ratings. When talking about 3yos the best performance I'd seen was Zafonic's Guineas, but he never had chance to substantiate it. It was a long wait till Sea The Stars came along and matched that in The Eclipse, obviously I consider him a better overall racehorse than Zafonic because of his other achievements. The best performance I'd seen regardless of age was Harbinger's King George, although I'd probably be considered biased as I was banging on about him being underrated before the race, but even I didn't expect him to do what he did that day. Others have tried to rubbish the form but I definitely do not. Then Frankel did what he did in the Queen Anne and that, for me, topped the lot. |
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I should've added that Frankel also matched Zafonic and STS when he won his Guineas.
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Fair enough Figgis, a few good races there and no mistake. The bit you put about rubbishing the form I can't believe that, are you sure people do that?
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sts arc for me but then everyone knew that already
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Well, maybe they haven't exactly rubbished Harbinger's KG but they thought he was overrated, it was a fluke, the others were all massively below form etc. I concede that the rest didn't run to their very best, but even allowing for that it was still a very high class performance, plus it is no surprise to see the opposition run below par when they're trying to match a superior horse. I even read some people say the time was no good, which completely baffled me.
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hatbingers KG was a freak race imo. if that was the pure form he'd beat every horse that ever lived! 10L eased down without hardly having a race when previously hard at it to beat age of aquarius(v tenderly handled) at chester by 3L.
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i agree it was a high class performance however and he was obv a pretty good horse.
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thats why TF annoy so many people, i mean he has the same rating as sts , its just ludicrous imo, even given his excellent KG performance.
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Timeform ratings are performance ratings, not overall ratings on the merits of a racehorse, and thats's how it should be, imo.
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The Chester race was run at a farce pace, so no surprise that he didn't show his true worth there. His other 2 races that year were run at above average times for the class and he was on an upward curve. So even though it was a jump to what he did in the KG, it wasn't as big a jump as a lot of people thought.
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The sad thing is they sent him to stud. I know they claim he was injured but the number of horses that retired injured immediately after their best run is a bit curious.
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still not convinced!
he won a higher class race by further and easier, the jump in performance is just too big imo. |
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i agree brig.
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Yeah, I've no idea if he would've been able to repeat that run. As he had been improving, possibly he reached his peak that day and maybe he wouldn't have matched that next time. However, I don't think a performance should necessarily be downgraded just because a horse never reaches those heights again. I would probably consider Sea The Stars as the best racehorse I've seen because of his overall career. However, he was retired as a 3yo and as far as actual performances go not one of his wins matches Frankel's best, as Frankel is giving high class performances as a pretty much fully mature racehorse. STS was never given the opportunity, we can factor in what we think he would've been capable of as a 4yo, but there's no proof that would've happened.
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yeah i wish it was compulsory to stay in training til 4 .
i suppose if any horse won what he won they wouldnt be racing at 4. |
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ILWAB, his time performance when winning the Hardwicke was actually better than most Group 1s I've rated. People will point to Duncan holding the form down, it caused me to repeatedly check everything was right at the time, but I had to conclude that Duncan ran out of his skin that day, it occasionally happens in races run at a fast pace, the rest of the field (no mugs, with many of them going on to run well afterwards) were blown away. He had also put up a better than class time performance when winning at Newbury. If Harbinger hadn't won the KG I would've had to go back and downgrade the Hardwicke win, but in view of the performance he went on to put up I believe it was justified. I've no doubts people will continue to crab it though. I just wonder how people who want absolute unequivocal proof about a performance go about their actual betting, they must be continually betting odds on shots.
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It certainly was a good performance but lets face it Cape Blanco had just won a terrible Irish Derby only narrowly, the 2nd and 3rd never won a race again. Youmzain in anyones books was enigmatic and Daryakana only ran once more poorly. Workforce had just won the Derby in an unbelievable time so had every right to bounce after that.
I loved it but to put him the same as Dancing Brave and 1lb behind Mill Reef must stand as the most ludicrous Timeform rating of all time, and that is saying something. |
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ill take your word for it figgis
 nice 12/1 shot all the same. |
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sorry that was your other bet. think he was 5/1 on the day was he? poor aul wf was never the same. not sure he loved ascot either.
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Brigust, this is where you let down all your arguments imo, your inconsistent bias against certain horses/races. You point to horses like Cape Blanco etc to hold Harbinger's form down, but you conveniently ignore horses like Mersey, Iades finishing right up DB's arse.
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Workforce did win the Arc afterwards but that was a different Workforce that day. Anyway Workforce isn't rated as highly as Excelebration yet he won the Derby in a lightening time and won the Arc.
When the guy at the Racing Post told me Timeform was a commercial organisation he must have mean't '£s' for points not 'lbs' for points. Now Figgis you say you are a time man what about Workforce? Ouch!! When I said Dancing Brave was the best race I had seen you pulled me up because I didn't do it on ratings I did it on visuals so I back tracked and said on ratings the '71 2000 Gns was the best I had seen. C'mon Fig be consistent. |
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ILWAB, yeah he was 4/1, but I thought Christmas had come early and lumped most of it on at 7/2.
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nice. great when youre confident about one and theyre a huge price AND they then go on to win like youd hoped
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That was below the belt Fig. Arguments? What arguments? I get asked a question and I answer it, I get asked another question and I answer that.I'm not arguing with anyone. And what bias against certain horses and races is that?
I said I loved Harbinger's win but you need to check the form to see just how good it was. It could have been the finest run ever seen. Had, for example Cape Blanco's opponents in the Irish Derby franked his form, Youmzain won the Arc and Daryakana won further races then no-one could question the form but they didn't and they do. You cannot blame me for that. |
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Brigust, it was a decent time performance by WF in the Derby, certainly better than average for the race, but nothing exceptional as far as time performances go.
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I meant you arguments to back up your opinions.
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* your
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Brigust, so you wanted Youmzain to win the Arc to justify Harbinger's merit? You wanted him to beat an Arc winner showing its best form by 14 lengths? I said it was a great performance, I didn't say he had wings.
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The only opinion I have is that I don't think Timeform are right in rating Frankel above Sea Bird 11. By using Brigadier Gerard as a yardstick who is rated 1lb below Sea Bird 11 I hope I make my point clear. I am not disputing Frankel is a great horse I am just pointing out why I think BG and Frankel, at this moment in time should at best be rated the same.
I bet you something, if you asked 100 trainers if next season they would rather train a Frankel or a Sea Bird 11 that all 100 would say the latter. That is only my opinion of course, I'm not arguing with anyone. Who is arguing now? It was a figure of speech, had the other runners somehow franked the form then these questions wouldn't be raised. Please don't shoot the messenger. They are only questions, not criticisms. When an organisation like Timeform make statements of fact I believe they should be beyond question otherwise they are guessing too much. |
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You didn't rate Workforce's Derby time when it was nearly a second faster than it has ever been run in before?
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The time was helped by the conditions. As I said it was decent, but I have it 1lb lower than Authorized, who ran the best Derby time performance in recent years, imo of course
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Think we all know that Timeforms ratings are about 5lb higher now than they were 10 years ago, it is the same over the jumps. I do still think that Frankel's performances deserve 144+ because we don't know how he will reaxt when pressed because he has not been troubled.
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Odd that. I thought Authorized bounced as well.
You may be correct steamship because they want to be different from the RP and BHA ratings. But surely that is a bit crazy? Odd though that you think they are around 5lbs higher and that does seem to fit but not with Frankel. Odd. |
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I think it's fairly obvious WF bounced to some degree, only an absolute idiot could think he showed his Derby form in the KG, but I still don't see how that detracts from the form.
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