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Just watched Mr Mellish and Olivia Hislop telling the world that anyone who didn't think Frankel's performance in the Queen Anne is the best they have ever seen 'must be blind'.
Well I am not blind Mr Mellish and I suggest you take off your rose tinted spectacles and the tie Henry gave you and get real.
Several of Brigadier Gerard's performances completely outstrip Frankel's 11 defeat of Side Glance, a Group 3 winner rated 113.
If it is only distances that turn you on and not class then in the QE11 of 1972 Brig Gerard defeat the 130 rated sparkler by 6 lengths with the 120 rated Redundent 5 lenghs away in third. And they were all level just over a furlong out. And he gave 7lb to the 2nd and 14lb to the 3rd. And that was just after he had nearly broken the course record on rain softened ground in the King George and had been beaten also in course recor time in the Benson & Hedges by the Derby winner in receipt of 11lbs.
In the Queen Anne 2 furlongs out Frankel was 4 lengths in front of Side Glance and beat him 11 lengths. He quickened away 7 lengths at level weights.
In the QE11 '72 just over one furlong out Brigadier Gerard, Sparkler and Redundent were level. At the line the distances were 6 lengths and 5 lengths in course record time.
Pull yourself together man you are talking complete rubbish.
Well I am not blind Mr Mellish and I suggest you take off your rose tinted spectacles and the tie Henry gave you and get real.
Several of Brigadier Gerard's performances completely outstrip Frankel's 11 defeat of Side Glance, a Group 3 winner rated 113.
If it is only distances that turn you on and not class then in the QE11 of 1972 Brig Gerard defeat the 130 rated sparkler by 6 lengths with the 120 rated Redundent 5 lenghs away in third. And they were all level just over a furlong out. And he gave 7lb to the 2nd and 14lb to the 3rd. And that was just after he had nearly broken the course record on rain softened ground in the King George and had been beaten also in course recor time in the Benson & Hedges by the Derby winner in receipt of 11lbs.
In the Queen Anne 2 furlongs out Frankel was 4 lengths in front of Side Glance and beat him 11 lengths. He quickened away 7 lengths at level weights.
In the QE11 '72 just over one furlong out Brigadier Gerard, Sparkler and Redundent were level. At the line the distances were 6 lengths and 5 lengths in course record time.
Pull yourself together man you are talking complete rubbish.
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An excellent and timely corrective.
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brigust over ONE MILE there is no doubt whatsoever which is the superior horse and its not close. I am 54 btw.
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steve thinks he is talking to his crew of dosser's down the local bookies
not the sharpest minds  |
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Is this just your opinion Supermaster or have you some facts to back it up?
In anyone's currency a 6 length beating of Sparkler, rated 130 and receiving 7lbs is better than an 11 beating of Side Glance rated 113 at level weigths. On ratings Mill Reef rated 141 would have beaten Side Glance rated 113 by more than 14 lengths and Brigadier Gerard beat Mill Reef 3 lengths going away. Brigadier Gerard, like Frankel was unbeaten over a mile and beat a great horse in Mill Reef at level weights. Can you match that? |
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Side glance is a tough and genuine horse, who will perform better than his rating
giving preferably, a strong gallop on a stiff track, on ground slower than good, he keeps going when a lot of horses jack it in. Don't know why so many knock him So for Frankel to beat him so easily, is a plus, not a negative |
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Perhaps you think a 6 length beating of Dubawi Gold who never won a Group 1 is better than a 3 length beating of Mill Reef who won 10 Group 1's. Is that it?
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Motley, Side Glance never performed to his rating beating a 108 rated horse by a length with a 104 rated horse a further length away. If anything Side Glance performed to 110. And that is worse.
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Im with Brigust on this one.
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Don't see how you can knock Frankel, I'm not inclined to be drawn into hype over
a particular, but this thing is a horse in a lifetime, and he appears to be getting better, probably because hes settling now, I can't see what's going to beat him. Can you? |
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Before my time but Brigust's position is unassailable, his posts are always interesting reading.
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There is a difference between knocking Frankel and not overhyping him. Everyone knows he is a great horse.
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to be fair had he given frankel a smack it might have won by 20
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I too think Frankel is great miler. Please don't get me wrong. All I am saying is that the powers that be cannot substantiate it, at this moment in time, that he is the best ever. And telling us we are blind if we don't see it is maddening.
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Look, theirs no way in the world mill reef, would of even been able to lay up
in the group1 6 furlong sprint, Frankel would of won it, probably quite easy, it now appears that by going to 1m 2, his superiority will be even greater. If the ascot race was a mile 2, he would of been 25 lens clear at the line. We have not seen stuff like that in a group 1 before. Have we, eh. |
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How do you know Motley? Mill Reef won the Coventry by 7 lengths and the Gimcrack by 10 lengths both over 6 furlongs and he won over 5 furlongs as well. He also won the Greenham by 4 lengths and beat the best sprinters around.
He beat My Swallow in the Guineas who was just touched off in the July Cup that year. When Brigadier Gerard won the Sussex he beat that year's Champion sprinter by over 7 lengths and when he was beaten in the Benson & Hedges he was also entered in the 5 furlong Nunthorpe Stakes 2 days later. And your supposition about the 1m 2f is misguided. Had it been 1m 2f he would have been meeting completely different opponents and he would be running around a bend. The last time he ran around a bend Zoffany nearly beat him. |
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absolutely agree they don't/cannot substantiate it - but unfortunately they don't need to because a horse wins easy someone says "we've never seen anything like it before ... etc etc " and even on places like here (where you would hope the opinion is more educated than the general public)threads appear repeating and/or building on the hype littered with throw away lines about how visually impressive they were and less of credible analysis.
haven't really contemplated whether dubai millennium was an all time great or not but nothing i have seen from frankel looks significantly different to what dm did in many of his races. |
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brigust1, perhaps that's why they keep dodging SYT, they're worried about running round a bend
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There are many that fit that bill Maysoon. What is not being taken into consideration is that this is a low era for British horseracing.
A German filly won the Arc easily with the Derby and St Leger winners tailed off. Last year's Derby winner had never won a Group 1 and was immediately retired. A 6 year old Aussie is winning the middle distance races and British horses aren't winning the sprints. Add to that the best horse in France is Cirrus Des Aigles who had to run 34 times before he won a Group 1. The clues are there. |
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godolphins horse would have just about beat slow you stink had it got a clear run at ascot,
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I don't know brigust, It's just on what I've seen. I always think it's futile trying to
compare generations, both horses were amazing and great to watch. As regards him running around a bend, that ascot race was pure panic from the pilot. In the side glance race he was definitely going away at the finish, you would have to think he would beat mile 2 horses as easily, just enjoy the horse, we might not see another like him for a long time. I'm off got a 12.50 tee time. GL |
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A quickie, Flush Faarh would of definitely beat so you think, and to think
I got knocked back by Power when It ran in the H/cap at thirsk. C00nts |
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Another thing the pundits don't realise is that in 1971-2 when Brigaier Gerard was racing there were fewer Group 1's. The only one mile Group 1 other than the Guineas was the Sussex Stakes. In many of his races he had to carry penalties for his Group 1 successes. I don't think Frankel has given any horse any weight at all.
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Whilst Frankel stays in his comfort zone of taking on second grade horses over a mile, he will not be considered by me as an all time great.
The Brigadier, Nijinsky, Mill Reef, El Gran Senor to mention a few, done the business over varying distances. The greatest chaser ever used to give lumps of weight to rivals, and still beat them. Frankel may well be an all time great, but needs to go up in trip to prove it. |
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People have very short memories these days and also remember things selectively,
we live in an age when lots of things need to be 'the best ever' so that people take note of the person/horse/event, I'll give you a recent example in the topical shape of tennis, after the era of Borg and McEnroe who were the 'best ever' of their time, a few years went by and then we had a proper 'best ever' candidate in the shape of Pete Sampras. No sooner had Sampras had retired and we had arguably the 'best ever' in Federer winning everything BUT as soon as Federer has stopped winning a major or two, at the French Open, the tennis pundits were uttering that Nadal was the 'best ever' blah blah blah, Frankel is certainly a magnificent horse and has been the champion miler of the last 2 seasons but until history shows us that horses that he has beaten were themselves capable of multiple G1 success, then the pundits should not get carried away ! |
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Hear hear.
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In the recent past we had a horse turn up for every gig from the Guineas to the Derby, through to the Arc. In the process showing himself to be a champion at 3 different distances, and rather pleasingly, beating off everything Ballydoyle could throw at him.
A true champion imo, who never shirked a challenge, and who overcame adversity to win an Arc. Frankel has beaten Excelebration and an injured Canford Cliffs. There was no reason whatsoever imo he could not have gone for the Irish Champion last season and taken on SYT. He does not (yet) deserve to be mentioned in the same breath as Sea The Stars, imo, never mind be rated higher. |
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well said George,
I wonder if Sea The Stars would've been the 'best ever' had he have been trained by the O'Brien 'best ever' operation or Cecil's after the race interview 'best ever' emotional quip ! |
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When Brigadier Gerard won the Lockinge first time out as a 4 year old he carried 9st 5lbs. The 3 year old filly Crespinall who finished last beaten 15+ lengths carried 7st 8lbs. She had just won the Group 3 Princess Elizabeth Stakes at Epsom and after her defeat in the Lockinge won the Group 2 Nassau Stakes at Goodwood.
When Sparkler won the Queen Anne at Royal Ascot it was a Group 3. Sparkler, a 4 year old, carried 9st 8lbs while the 2nd Calshot Light (rated 116) carried 8st 10lbs and was beaten three quarters of a length. Sparkler had suffered badly with the virus and was expected to need the run. |
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I'm not sure who the best miler I have ever seen is. The candidates would be Bigadier Gerard,El Gran Senor, Dancing Brave and Frankel.
You make a sound case Brigust but is there a possibility it's you who is looking through rose tinted spectacles regarding the Brigadier ? |
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flyingbolt i always seem to rate the horses that were about when i first got into racing as better than the ones these days, but maybe i was lucky to get into racing in the mid 80s. reference point,el gran senor,dancing brave,oh so sharp ,warning ,indianskimmer ,nashwan ,pebbles ,dayjur, triptych. maybe i just got into racing in a vintage era.
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All top class horses,Fidway.
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My point Flyingbolt is exactly yours. I find it impossible to know. I know more about Brigadier Gerard than El Fran Senor and Dancing Brave. Anyone who wants to put a case forward for them is quite entitled to do so. I think the case for BG is outstanding.
Do you think Frankel's 6 length defeat of Dubawi Gold winner of zero Group 1's is better than Brigadier Gerard's defeat of Mill Reef who won 10 Group 1's. And that was at a time Group 1's were thin on the ground. To win one everyone who was anyone had to run. So selecting Frankel and telling everyone we are blind for not seeing it is, in my opinion, ridiculous. |
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and the funny thing about that is, everyone CAN see how brilliant Frankel is but they are selectively blind about how good the other greats were !
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And the funny thing is the 'everyone' you talk about are overlooking the most important point. What the opposition is.
I'm not very quick so I would think Usain Bolt would make me look a lot slower. When top class horses run against other top class horses at level weighs that is the best judge of a horses ability. Not how easily it beats much lesser class opponents, also at level weights. |
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wont it be easier to rate frankel through excelabration,if we take the 11 lgh beating as a one off ,theres 4 races where he got within 4 lghs,so surely no one is contemplating that excelabration was or will ever be within 3 lengths of some of the all time greats,and thats not counting in zoffanys run against frankel
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Brigust is quite right,
just as in any sport, you can only be considered a great by what you have beaten. |
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just shows you how difficult it is to rate horses,i always thought zarkava rating was lower than it should be because of how she ran,i personally think she is one of the best of alltime and would run down anything that was in front of her.
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On the basis of great horses it has always amazed me that TROY is never mentioned. I his derby he beat Dickens Hill (M O'Tooles best ever winner and subsequent winner of the Eclipse) by 7 lengths,No rthern Baby (multiple Group 1 winner in France) and Ela Mana Mou ( subsequent Group 1 winner and voted the next years european horse of the year) Annoys me intensley when Shergar is mentionedas a great as he beat only handicappers. Have to agree with brigurst. The measure of a true champion is meeting and beating either group 1 or future group 1 winners. Wait and see what Frankel can achieve over 1m2f when he will have to give weight away. I believe the Brigadier would have beaten Frankel as my mind has not dimmed see him run.Beating Mill Reef and My Swallow in the 2000 guineas was the best mile performance I ever saw.
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Timmy, my brother in law looked after the horse, Millford I think, they made almost favourite in Troy's Derby. Lester rode it and Willie rode Troy. What a bet he was. Where they get their ratings from sometimes beggar's belief.
I have no idea why he isn't rated more highly I have a porcelain of him. Lovely horse. I think sometimes when the season is weak some horses just stand out better. I may be wrong but that could be a reason. |