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25 Jun 12
12:06
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05 Jan 10
Awesome Frankel the wonder of brilliant Ascot
By Sam Walker racingpost.com
AN unforgettable week at Royal Ascot spearheaded by the best performance in the world this year, or any year.
Here are some of the highlights from the Top Listers - including a bonus performance from Japan.
FRANKEL (Queen Anne Stakes) 142+
Handicappers used to work on a 0-140 scale but we might have to change the wording. From now on it will be known as the 0-Frankel scale.
When he retires we will have a new theoretical maximum, although you shouldn't expect anything to hit the 'Frankel' level for a while.
Before last week he shared top spot on the RPR all-time list with Dubai Millennium on a mark of 139. He had always promised to go one better but last week he actually went three better by posting a scale-breaking RPR of 142.
In the last 20-odd years since we've been keeping ratings he is way out on his own, but that is because he IS entirely out on his own; how could any horse possibly beat the colt who won the Queen Anne last week?
His sectional times tell part of the story, as he clocked a 10.58-second furlong between 2f and 1f out, which digitises the analogue impression he left in quickening away from his rivals like an ostrich in a field of penguins.
An 11-length drubbing of Excelebration was the headline but it is no guide to the form. The runner-up underperformed and to assess the performance you have to use the penguins.
He is running against the same old horses every time and is still running over his safe trip of a mile, but the way he can beat up his contemporaries is something to behold.
For three seasons now he's been handing out colossal beatings, averaging almost five-lengths a time across his seven Group 1 victories.
It should be more of the same in the Sussex, which looks to be next on his agenda. Then he is set to step up in trip for the Juddmonte International at York.
Clare Balding mentioned on the BBC last week (in reference to the great Eclipse) that Frankel may be commemorated with a big-race title in future and the International, sponsored by his owner, looks a prime candidate. They won't have any choice if he improves for the extra distance; thereby doing a Frankel in the Frankel.
Frankel only knows how much more Frankel has to offer.
BLACK CAVIAR (Diamond Jubilee Stakes) 122+
Jockey Luke Nolen was very nervous in the gates. Trainer Peter Moody was nervous. Ascot was alive with expectation and Federation Square in Melbourne was buzzing.
There was an unprecedented global pressure on this one horse in this one race. The build-up was so great that winning distance expectations went wild.
In a week which started with an 11-length win for Frankel, and with Black Caviar unlikely to score by more than five-lengths, the result, especially under such pressure, could never live up to expectations. In the end it was almost a negative margin.
Nolen admitted to a "brain fade" in the closing stages which saw Black Caviar win by a shorter distance than she could have.
This human error was a result of the massive pressure on this race after 12 months of meticulous planning, with the international media following their every move. No planning could have predicted the pressure-cooker atmosphere waiting for them at Ascot.
If the jockey transmitted his nerves to the horse it may have affected her during the race. In normal circumstances she would switch off in the early stages, even rock out of the gates in last and just stroll along without a care in the world.
This was different. She was fast away and had had to keep up a decent gallop for longer than she ever has in her life - her sole 7f win having come off a National Hunt pace, and Ascot being the stiffest 6f she had encountered. Nolen admitted she had had enough at the end and the sectionals show she clocked a slow final furlong of 13.7 seconds.
That's how it is with the 6f at Ascot. You need to get a good 7f to see it out well. Dandy Boy, who won the Wokingham in a faster time than Black Caviar, had actually been plying his trade over a mile on his last three starts. And that's why Aussie flat-track sprinters tend to be more successful in the King's Stand than the Diamond Jubilee.
Moody had thought that she would be even better at 7f and a mile, but this result is proof, if needed, that she is definitely a sprinter. It only took us 22 runs to put that one to bed. In the end she scraped home by a head after Luke Nolen eased her down prematurely.
There was little more than a couple of lengths covering the first seven, so the form and the rating is the weakest since before the Racing Post first recognised her as the best sprinter in the world in October 2010. She was clearly not at her scintillating best last week.
Distance, ground, plane journey, off-season, pressure; all valid and combined excuses, but this success was, nevertheless, a success. A win's a win's a win, and 22 unbeaten is 22 unbeaten.
She will return to Australia with an even bigger following after this victory, but the frenzied media attention will abate. From now on, until she is retired, she will be running at familiar tracks against familiar foes. Just like Frankel.
SO YOU THINK (Prince Of Wales's Stakes) 127
Historically it has been hard for southern hemisphere horses to win middle-distance races in Europe, but So You Think went one step further, securing a never-before-achieved treble of championship events: the Eclipse, Irish Champion Stakes and Prince Of Wales's Stakes.
He was odds-on to win the third of those last week, mainly because he didn't face a true championship-level rival, but he won as he was entitled and confirmed himself a horse of great consistency.
If you take out his first runs on dirt and Tapeta, and the step up in trip for the Arc, and concentrate solely on his races over 1m2f on turf, he has been a rock, running to RPRs of 127-129 on his last ten starts, winning eight.
Last week he posted a mark of 127. It was his 17th RPR of 125 or better, his fifth Group 1 in Europe and his tenth Group 1 overall during a tremendous sequence of results which stretch right back to his first Cox Plate victory in 2009.
He may not have ability of Frankel (who does?), but has plenty of other attributes (physique, gears, versatility, grit) which are reflected in his accomplished cv.
He achieved a rare level of domination in the intermediate division in Australia and it takes a special horse to dominate speed races in Australia and then bag a unique treble of strong-paced championship events in Europe. To add to his eclectic mix of accolades, he was also the world champion stayer in 2010, after hulking a big weight to third in the Melbourne Cup.
Special and unique he may be, but he's also getting out of the intermediate division at the right time. As soon as Frankel steps up in trip, the intermediates will be blown apart like the milers have been.
ORFEVRE (Takarazuka Kinen) 129+
They went a sustained gallop so there were no excuses this time, and none were needed. He was back to his brilliant best in the Takarazuka Kinen on Sunday, winning by a cosy two-lengths from Rulership (125).
This was a back-to-form win after two strange defeats earlier this season. His first defeat might have been filmed for an episode of 'Luck': not settle, ran wide, pulled up, dropped back through field, picked up again, swept around field, took lead, finished second.
His second defeat came off a slow pace, with 159-1 shot Beat Black winning from the front by a form-defying four-lengths. That result had everything to do with pace and nothing to do with ability.
On Sunday they went a good, solid, even pace and the result was a career best RPR of 129+ for Japan's most exciting horse since Deep Impact.
Last year he looked a superstar in waiting, winning the triple crown and then seeing off his elders in the Arima Kinen. This year he had given cause for concern, but he clearly still has exceptional ability on a going day. And there could still be more to come.
TOP OF THE CLASS: Frankel 142+
Sir Henry Cecil (GB) (Queen Anne Stakes, Royal Ascot, 1m, 19 June)
TOP LIST
1 Frankel (GB) Queen Anne Stakes 142T
2 Black Caviar (Aus) Lightning Stakes 130T
Cirrus Des Aigles (Fr) Prix Ganay 130T
4 Hay List (Aus) Newmarket Handicap 129T
Orfevre (****) Takarazuka Kinen
129T
6 Camelot****) Derby 128T
Wise Dan (US) Ben Ali/Stephen Foster 128A/D
8 Excelebration (Ire) Lockinge Stakes 127T
I'll Have Another (US) Preakness Stakes 127D
So You Think (Ire) Tattersalls Gold Cup 127T
St Nicholas Abbey (Ire) Coronation Cup 127T
TOP TURF PERFORMERS
1 Frankel (GB) Queen Anne Stakes 142
2 Black Caviar (Aus) Lightning Stakes 130
Cirrus Des Aigles (Fr) Prix Ganay 130
4 Hay List (Aus) Newmarket Handicap 129
Orfevre (****) Takarazuka Kinen 129
6 Camelot (Ire) Derby 128
7 Excelebration (Ire) Lockinge Stakes 127
So You Think (Ire) Tattersalls Gold Cup 127
St Nicholas Abbey (Ire) Coronation Cup 127
10 Cityscape (HK) Dubai Duty Free 126
TOP DIRT PERFORMERS
1 Wise Dan (US) Stephen Foster Hcap 128
2 I'll Have Another (US) Preakness Stakes 127
3 Bodemeister (US) Arkansas Derby 126
Caleb's Posse (US) Met Mile 126
5 Ron The Greek (US)
Stephen Foster Hcap 124
Shackleford (US) Met Mile 124
To Honor And Serve (US) Westchester S 124
8 Game On Dude (US) San Antonio 123
Smart Falcon (****) Kawasaki Kinen 123
Jackson Bend (US) Carter Handicap 123
Successful Dan (US) Alysheba Stakes 123
Union Rags (US) Belmont Stakes 123
TOP ALL-WEATHER PERFORMERS
1 Wise Dan (US) Ben Ali 128
2 Monterosso (UAE) Dubai World Cup 126
3 Game On Dude (US) Californian 123
Krypton Factor (BHR) Golden Shaheen 123
5 Musir (SAF) Maktoum Challenge R1 122
Colour Vision (GB) Sagaro Stakes 122
7 African Story (UAE) Godolphin Mile 121
8 Capponi (UAE) Dubai World Cup 120
9Planteur (GB) Dubai World Cup 119
10 Prince Bishop (UAE) Meydan Hcap 118
Dullahan (US) Blue Grass Stakes 118
So You Think (Ire) Dubai World Cup 118
Red Cadeaux (GB) Sagaro Stakes 118
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Some-one else talking complete bo ll ox. His 'quickening' was exacerbated by Excelebration weakening. If he ever run to 140 at any time I would be amazed.
Luckily Arkle was on a rating out of reach of Kauto Star otherwise KS would have been rated higher by the Timeform team such is the rush to promote so called champions. To be a true champion you have to beat someone or something of comparable ability. Until Frankel does he is only beating trees. |
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The Cotton Wool Kid at his best, i hear retirement is around the corner for him.
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cotton wool kid
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Just for the record Brigadier Gerard’s record in 1 mile races
The number of races he ran in was restricted because he went up in trip to 10f and 12f. However Brigadier Gerard was still able to return to 1 mile and break the course record at Ascot in his 17th race. 2000 Guineas by 3 lengths, St James Palace by a head, Sussex Stakes by 5 lengths, Goodwood Mile by 10 lengths, QE11 by 8 lengths, Lockinge by 2 ½ lengths giving 27lb to the 2nd , QE11 by 6 lengths giving 7lbs to the 2nd. In total 7 1 mile races won by 35 lengths + giving 35lbs to the 2nd = 5+ lengths per race. In only 1 race was the 2nd horse the same horse. After Brigadier Gerard beat them the 2nd horses then won a total of 11 Group 1’s. After Frankel beat them the 2nd horses have won between them 3 Group 1’s. In total the horses who finished 2nd to Frankel have won a total of 9 Group 1’s whereas the horses who finished 2nd to Brigadier Gerard have won in total 19 Group 1’s. And all of that at a time when there were only half the number of Group 1 races to run in compared with today. And Timeform rate him 3lbs above Brigadier Gerard. Clueless. |
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Some-one else talking complete bo ll ox. His 'quickening' was exacerbated by Excelebration weakening. If he ever run to 140 at any time I would be amazed.
Luckily Arkle was on a rating out of reach of Kauto Star otherwise KS would have been rated higher by the Timeform team such is the rush to promote so called champions. To be a true champion you have to beat someone or something of comparable ability. Until Frankel does he is only beating trees. Blimey someone accuses others of talking rubbish and then comes out with that little gem. Read it again, he ran a 10.58 second furlong between 3 out and 2 out. That's not exacerbated by any of the opposition weakening, that's a fact. And for your information Excelebration also quickened at the same time going from a 11.38 furlong between 4 out and 3 out to 11.12 for the next furlong. And how can a horse beat something of comparable ability if there is nothing of comparable ability? He's thrashing 130 rated horses not just beating them. That's a true champion whichever way you look at it. |
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The trouble with your argument Marcce is that we only have the timings for Frankel. Using a new method as a stick to hit other champions with is untenable. If we had sectionals in other era's what you say may be worth listening to. But they didn't, so it isn't.
And I think if you look the last horse Frankel 'thrashed', excluding Excelebration,is only 113 rated. And you don't think Frankel's quickening was exacerbated by Excelebration weakening. Really? And you don't think for a horse to be rated the greatest ever he should at least beat another champion? Really? Thankfully they weren't rating boxers otherwise George Foreman would have been miles clear on the ratings and Mohammed Ali need not bother turning up for the Rumble in the Jungle. And when Mill House took on Arkle in their first Gold Cup meeting I don't know why Arkle even bothered turning up so far was Mill House rated in front of him. If they had sectionals perhaps they would have got it right. Who knows? |
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The trouble with your argument is that you're bringing other champions into it.
I used the sectional timings to demonstrate that Frankel's quickening was not exacerbated by Excelebration quickening, the clock suggests that he did as well. That has nothing to do with any horses of previous eras. It is purely the evidence of what happened in last week's race Quite simply, you're trying to pick holes in the visual evidence when the clock backs up what happened as well. The horse quickened to a level that nothing else in the race could live with him. That has not been exacerbated by any other horse in the race weakening. Frankel quickened as did every other horse in the race at the same time. The difference was he quickened to a higher speed and sustained that speed for far longer than the others managed. And was Canford Cliffs not good enough for you? Would Excelebration not be a champion comparable to many champions of previous eras if Frankel wasn't around? Please let us know who exactly Frankel has to beat to satisfy you? Arkle? |
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I'm not sure about Excelebration because Frankel scared off the opposition apart from him. His one Group 1 win is absolutely nothing special. The 2 horses he beat that day have run 10 times and only won a Group 2 between them.
Of the horses 2nd to Excelebration when he won or 3rd when he was 2nd to Frankel they have since run 70+ times between them and won 3 minor handicaps and a maiden. I do understand where you are coming from but visual impressions can be effected when one horse is quickening and the other is weakening rapidly. I'm not saying for one minute Frankel doesn't deserve to be up their with the best but to claim he is better is ludicrous. And when the form book doesn't back them up they use a method that cannot be compared with the past to prove their point. And don't forget Marcce, you picked on me not the other way round. |
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It's not picking on you. If you post something on a public forum it's with the knowledge that someone else may take issue with what you've said. AS you did with the original piece in fact.
To be honest I find trying to compare horses of different eras a completely futile exercise. In the end even ratings are just an opinion. I know what you're saying with the horses weakening argument. I've seen horses seemingly finish like a jet fighter when they've actually hardly quickened at all. But that's the great thing about sectionals in that they can back up what your eyes seem to be telling you. All I can say is that my eyes tell me he's the best horse I've seen in my lifetime but again that is just an opinion. |
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Timeform ratings are just meaningless opinions.
Pointless waffle. |
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excelebration isnt that smart. instead of talking about all the races this horse 'wouldve won if frankel wasnt around', lets look at the races he has won without frankel as these are fact, the german guineas from a horse than hasnt won since or come close to it and he beat rio de la plata over a length in france, and he wasnt on the bridle either.
hes simply not that good. the only reason hes rated so high is because of his proximity to frankel and frankels rating is based on excelebrations assumed ability. i dont really wanna get in to another pointless debate but frankel needs to go up in trip against a worthy foe to show his true ability because his 11L beating of a worn out excelebration prove nothing. |
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frankels once off beating of canford is not enough. whatever way u look at it, maybe canford did injure himself, maybe he didnt, we'll always be kept guessing. they needed to meet each other on diff tracks a few times to get a true grasp of what happened imo.
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Fair enough Marcce. I was however picking on a journalist who is paid to do his job and not another forumite.
I am just the same incomparing generations. I think British racing is going through a seriously low ebb and that also makes Frankel's achievements look outstanding.It is not his fault, I know, but under such circumstances how on earth can Timeform put him the best ever. Especially when the previous best have won brilliant races, brilliantly against top class opposition. Whereas Frankel has won less brilliant races, brilliantly against lesser opposition. You probably don't remember an athlete called David Bedford. He was a 5,000 and 10,000 metre runner. He appeared unbeatable and would regularly win his races by miles in world record times. But then when he turned up at the Olympics against quality opposition he wasn't even sighted. |
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what makes you think British racing is going through a seriously low ebb brigust?
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tbh i dont think there is THAT much between all the top horses, ever. i mean theyre just horses, they are bound by their own bodies and physics but i do think frankel still has a lot to prove.
i am hoping we can get a grasp on his ability once he goes up in trip but the sad thing is that it doesnt look like hes taking in the eclipse. i mean what is going on. |
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you must remember thoroughbreds on the whole these days have been speedier bred than they were
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topfarrier
25 Jun 12 16:00 Timeform ratings are just meaningless opinions. Pointless waffle. ^This |
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this is true grendel, the breeding element really adds another aspect regarding the ability of a horse.
the thing is greatness is often measured by speed. i mean many on here for example saying frankel would beat camelot over 10 and i agree with them but then i feel frankel camelot would beat frankel over 12, so what does that mean? its purely subjective to me anyway, its just opinion because we cant prove it. unless of course in my example it could be proven given both are in training but its not going to happen is it. is frankels inability to stay (although we truly know) a weakness in comparison to say sts ability to win any race he tried over any trip? its just opinion. i mean im firmly in the sts corner as many will know but i just happen to think winning all those races he did is just far more incredible that frankels multiple impressive mile victories, thats just me . i mean timeform rate frankel a better horse sts using their system but their system is obv flawed albeit i cant think of another way of trying to rate horses other than by lengths won but its still v one dimensional. what i thought would be a good idea would be to rate horses only over the distances they have won and the grade of races and competition they beat. as breeding is now such an integral part of a horses life that their campaigns are often geared with this in mind. with frankel i believe they are trying to preserve his unbeaten record but if he was rated 0 over 10f and 12f i feel connections MIGHT be more inclined to consider this and thus race horses over these distances to enhance their CV. i prefer horses to win great races over lots of distances, thats what all the great european and indeed american horses have aspired to do over the decades, not beat up inferior horses over the same distance over and over and over again. i mean i think frankel is prob the best miler ive ever seen and i have never denied his ability when i am debating on the threads. people think im some sort of frankel hater and i not but i can nver see him like i see sea the stars, mill reef, dancing brave etc, i just cant. these are guineas, derby and arc winners who have achieved the truly remarkable. frankel beating excelebration 11L is close to the achievements of these horses (even if these horses perhaps couldnt have done what frankel did to excelebration). this was the 5th or 6th time frankel has faced this horse and he is going for the sussex if u read in to henrys comments, i cant understand this personally, its a nothing race and i wont credit frankel anymore for beating excelebration AGAIN so i dont really see whats so special about him missing yet another opportunity (eclipse) to show how good he really instead of running over a mile again, i mean seriously, where is henrys competitive spirit, so much fear with this horse. |
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Brigust I do just about remember David Bedford from very early childhood. Sporting history is littered with similar examples.
The only thing I can say is that Timeform is highly respected with what it does. But again, it's an opinion and no doubt they'd have valid arguments as to why they've rated him the best of all time. ilikewavingatbuses we've already got a grasp on his ability. He's done things consistently that not many of us have seen horses do once in their careers. And to be honest the Eclipse isn't the race it used to be these days anyway. If he wins the Juddmonte it's likely to be against a stronger field than he'd come up against at Sandown. |
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Frankel's just received a text from Dubawi Gold....reads.
" sorry I couldn't make the Ascot gig but it was circumstances outside my control , hoping to be at Goodwood to see you & Excelebration , it'll be great for us all to meet up yet again " Apparently the 3 have become very close friends in the equine world |
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he should be racing in the eclipse AND the juddmonte, thats the point!
why is cecil going to the sussex?  |
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what it looks like to is that henry is limiting the chances of colt getting beat by keeping him over a mile as much and as long as possible.
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wherever he goes his next run will be against 3yo's giving weight, whatever you say about him not many champions end up doing that
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yes at least that adds a diff dynamic although the 3 yr olds look terrible from what ive seen but its early days i suppose.
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Because the race at York is sponsored by the owner.
Just how much attention will there be on the race with it being the first time he goes further than a mile? There are many reasons why he's got such a huge bond with Abdulla and if aiming the horse at the Juddmonte is seen as a way of expressing that then I can't quibble with it. The Sussex would then be the logical stepping stone to that race. |
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ILWAB - after last week...do you STILL believe Sea The Stars could be 'competitive' with Frankel over a mile?
I suspect Kinane would have needed to resort to the whip  I'm convinced that El Gran Senor & Dancing Brave would not have got a look in, and I thought they were the absolute pinnacle at a mile that I'd EVER see! As you know...I can't make the same comparisons with Brigadier Gerard as he was before my time. I've always held the same views as yourself about Excelebration, and the frustrations at Frankel racing exclusively over a mile, but it should never be forgotten how Canford Cliffs was smashed to pieces (regardless of the lies) and how Goldikova would have been 'crippled' if she'd have lined up against Frankel. They were two whopping 'yardsticks' and EVERYTHING in the book suggests they'd have not been sighted, even at the peak of their form, so the critics of Excelebration, and even Side Glance, need to pipe down a bit. The horse couldn't possibly have done more, though that can't be said of the connections, regardless of the expertise they've handled him with. I know you're no Frankel-hater and I think you get some unfair flak about your views, but I'm as confident as I could be that over 10.5f at York, we'll see something really special, and you'll be chomping on a bit of humble pie - I just can't seem him not staying over that C&D, and if he's in the same form as last week...NOTHING but a sniper on the Knavesmire grandstand or an Ile De Chypre laser-gun can stop him! I also suspect that won't satisfy you, and you'll be baying for a bit of the same at Longchamp in October  |
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I've just realised...if he goes to the Sussex and then to York, the Juddmonte will be his 13th race - a portent perhaps?
 AND...York used to be regarded as 'the graveyard'  |
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Foetus
25 Jun 12 17:11 Joined: 17 Apr 12 | Topic/replies: 575 | Blogger: Foetus's blog ILWAB - after last week...do you STILL believe Sea The Stars could be 'competitive' with Frankel over a mile? honestly i think he would give it a much better go than excelebration, i think hes just average tbh but no i would regard frankel as a better miler. READ my post foetus, i said i regard sts achievements as far superior and more difficult than anything frankel has done, i dont really care what timeform say, its just a bloke doing ratings, its an opinion. lets face it, if cecil thought frankel couldve won the derby and arc he'd have went there. |
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i hear re canford but i cant help thinking canford is a better horse than excelebratikon, its a pity they never faced each other at one stage. thing is what IF canford did injure himself, i wish they met a couple more times but regardless i do see frankel as the better horse anyway.
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Just out of interest the top 3 speed figures i have for Sea The Stars and Frankel are:
Sea The Stars 96 94 93 Frankel 95 95 92 |
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I DO read your posts properly ILWAB...and I agree with you!
I've not seen a horse whose achievements (albeit over just six months) could hold a candle to Sea The Stars  |
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i nearly called u by your original name foetus
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Canford Cliffs ran his race and was broken by Frankel, and AT BEST he could have got a length or two closer.
If he'd have been at Ascot last week, he'd have been even further behind than he was at Goodwood - I'm convinced of that! |
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What? Gerulaitis?
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i dont do speed figures tbh so i wouldnt even know where to start tbh.
sts did clock some good times tho, i know that. |
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yeah youre prob right but i wish we had the chance to see it again as excelebration put up a bigger fight than canford did and i dont regard excelebration a better horse than canford.
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Excelebration weakened as he tried to live with Frankel's extraordinary turn of foot & paid the penalty late on. Frankel broke his heart. IMO, If Excelebration had been ridden for second, he may well have been clear of the rest and been a few lengths closer to Frankel.
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see i though the steady pace helped excelebration, or atleast should have. he was travelling comfortably up til about 2f out and then the race was over.
the 3rd was hard at it when excelebration was still on the steel yet he just about held on for 2nd. i couldnt understand that tbh. |
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I think Canford Cliffs & Goldikova would have far too many guns for a heartbroken Excelebration, and I suspect that Immortal Verse will beat him too, as she's far better than that QE II performance - hopefully we'll see them do battle in the Jacques & Moulin, which logically MUST be prime targets for both.
What Frankel has done to Excelebration, is even more of a mental beating that what Kauto Star handed out to Exotic Dancer! |