Welcome to Live View – Take the tour to learn more
Start Tour
There is currently 1 person viewing this thread.
25 Jun 12
12:06
Joined:
Date Joined:
05 Jan 10
Awesome Frankel the wonder of brilliant Ascot
By Sam Walker racingpost.com
AN unforgettable week at Royal Ascot spearheaded by the best performance in the world this year, or any year.
Here are some of the highlights from the Top Listers - including a bonus performance from Japan.
FRANKEL (Queen Anne Stakes) 142+
Handicappers used to work on a 0-140 scale but we might have to change the wording. From now on it will be known as the 0-Frankel scale.
When he retires we will have a new theoretical maximum, although you shouldn't expect anything to hit the 'Frankel' level for a while.
Before last week he shared top spot on the RPR all-time list with Dubai Millennium on a mark of 139. He had always promised to go one better but last week he actually went three better by posting a scale-breaking RPR of 142.
In the last 20-odd years since we've been keeping ratings he is way out on his own, but that is because he IS entirely out on his own; how could any horse possibly beat the colt who won the Queen Anne last week?
His sectional times tell part of the story, as he clocked a 10.58-second furlong between 2f and 1f out, which digitises the analogue impression he left in quickening away from his rivals like an ostrich in a field of penguins.
An 11-length drubbing of Excelebration was the headline but it is no guide to the form. The runner-up underperformed and to assess the performance you have to use the penguins.
He is running against the same old horses every time and is still running over his safe trip of a mile, but the way he can beat up his contemporaries is something to behold.
For three seasons now he's been handing out colossal beatings, averaging almost five-lengths a time across his seven Group 1 victories.
It should be more of the same in the Sussex, which looks to be next on his agenda. Then he is set to step up in trip for the Juddmonte International at York.
Clare Balding mentioned on the BBC last week (in reference to the great Eclipse) that Frankel may be commemorated with a big-race title in future and the International, sponsored by his owner, looks a prime candidate. They won't have any choice if he improves for the extra distance; thereby doing a Frankel in the Frankel.
Frankel only knows how much more Frankel has to offer.
BLACK CAVIAR (Diamond Jubilee Stakes) 122+
Jockey Luke Nolen was very nervous in the gates. Trainer Peter Moody was nervous. Ascot was alive with expectation and Federation Square in Melbourne was buzzing.
There was an unprecedented global pressure on this one horse in this one race. The build-up was so great that winning distance expectations went wild.
In a week which started with an 11-length win for Frankel, and with Black Caviar unlikely to score by more than five-lengths, the result, especially under such pressure, could never live up to expectations. In the end it was almost a negative margin.
Nolen admitted to a "brain fade" in the closing stages which saw Black Caviar win by a shorter distance than she could have.
This human error was a result of the massive pressure on this race after 12 months of meticulous planning, with the international media following their every move. No planning could have predicted the pressure-cooker atmosphere waiting for them at Ascot.
If the jockey transmitted his nerves to the horse it may have affected her during the race. In normal circumstances she would switch off in the early stages, even rock out of the gates in last and just stroll along without a care in the world.
This was different. She was fast away and had had to keep up a decent gallop for longer than she ever has in her life - her sole 7f win having come off a National Hunt pace, and Ascot being the stiffest 6f she had encountered. Nolen admitted she had had enough at the end and the sectionals show she clocked a slow final furlong of 13.7 seconds.
That's how it is with the 6f at Ascot. You need to get a good 7f to see it out well. Dandy Boy, who won the Wokingham in a faster time than Black Caviar, had actually been plying his trade over a mile on his last three starts. And that's why Aussie flat-track sprinters tend to be more successful in the King's Stand than the Diamond Jubilee.
Moody had thought that she would be even better at 7f and a mile, but this result is proof, if needed, that she is definitely a sprinter. It only took us 22 runs to put that one to bed. In the end she scraped home by a head after Luke Nolen eased her down prematurely.
There was little more than a couple of lengths covering the first seven, so the form and the rating is the weakest since before the Racing Post first recognised her as the best sprinter in the world in October 2010. She was clearly not at her scintillating best last week.
Distance, ground, plane journey, off-season, pressure; all valid and combined excuses, but this success was, nevertheless, a success. A win's a win's a win, and 22 unbeaten is 22 unbeaten.
She will return to Australia with an even bigger following after this victory, but the frenzied media attention will abate. From now on, until she is retired, she will be running at familiar tracks against familiar foes. Just like Frankel.
SO YOU THINK (Prince Of Wales's Stakes) 127
Historically it has been hard for southern hemisphere horses to win middle-distance races in Europe, but So You Think went one step further, securing a never-before-achieved treble of championship events: the Eclipse, Irish Champion Stakes and Prince Of Wales's Stakes.
He was odds-on to win the third of those last week, mainly because he didn't face a true championship-level rival, but he won as he was entitled and confirmed himself a horse of great consistency.
If you take out his first runs on dirt and Tapeta, and the step up in trip for the Arc, and concentrate solely on his races over 1m2f on turf, he has been a rock, running to RPRs of 127-129 on his last ten starts, winning eight.
Last week he posted a mark of 127. It was his 17th RPR of 125 or better, his fifth Group 1 in Europe and his tenth Group 1 overall during a tremendous sequence of results which stretch right back to his first Cox Plate victory in 2009.
He may not have ability of Frankel (who does?), but has plenty of other attributes (physique, gears, versatility, grit) which are reflected in his accomplished cv.
He achieved a rare level of domination in the intermediate division in Australia and it takes a special horse to dominate speed races in Australia and then bag a unique treble of strong-paced championship events in Europe. To add to his eclectic mix of accolades, he was also the world champion stayer in 2010, after hulking a big weight to third in the Melbourne Cup.
Special and unique he may be, but he's also getting out of the intermediate division at the right time. As soon as Frankel steps up in trip, the intermediates will be blown apart like the milers have been.
ORFEVRE (Takarazuka Kinen) 129+
They went a sustained gallop so there were no excuses this time, and none were needed. He was back to his brilliant best in the Takarazuka Kinen on Sunday, winning by a cosy two-lengths from Rulership (125).
This was a back-to-form win after two strange defeats earlier this season. His first defeat might have been filmed for an episode of 'Luck': not settle, ran wide, pulled up, dropped back through field, picked up again, swept around field, took lead, finished second.
His second defeat came off a slow pace, with 159-1 shot Beat Black winning from the front by a form-defying four-lengths. That result had everything to do with pace and nothing to do with ability.
On Sunday they went a good, solid, even pace and the result was a career best RPR of 129+ for Japan's most exciting horse since Deep Impact.
Last year he looked a superstar in waiting, winning the triple crown and then seeing off his elders in the Arima Kinen. This year he had given cause for concern, but he clearly still has exceptional ability on a going day. And there could still be more to come.
TOP OF THE CLASS: Frankel 142+
Sir Henry Cecil (GB) (Queen Anne Stakes, Royal Ascot, 1m, 19 June)
TOP LIST
1 Frankel (GB) Queen Anne Stakes 142T
2 Black Caviar (Aus) Lightning Stakes 130T
Cirrus Des Aigles (Fr) Prix Ganay 130T
4 Hay List (Aus) Newmarket Handicap 129T
Orfevre (****) Takarazuka Kinen
129T
6 Camelot****) Derby 128T
Wise Dan (US) Ben Ali/Stephen Foster 128A/D
8 Excelebration (Ire) Lockinge Stakes 127T
I'll Have Another (US) Preakness Stakes 127D
So You Think (Ire) Tattersalls Gold Cup 127T
St Nicholas Abbey (Ire) Coronation Cup 127T
TOP TURF PERFORMERS
1 Frankel (GB) Queen Anne Stakes 142
2 Black Caviar (Aus) Lightning Stakes 130
Cirrus Des Aigles (Fr) Prix Ganay 130
4 Hay List (Aus) Newmarket Handicap 129
Orfevre (****) Takarazuka Kinen 129
6 Camelot (Ire) Derby 128
7 Excelebration (Ire) Lockinge Stakes 127
So You Think (Ire) Tattersalls Gold Cup 127
St Nicholas Abbey (Ire) Coronation Cup 127
10 Cityscape (HK) Dubai Duty Free 126
TOP DIRT PERFORMERS
1 Wise Dan (US) Stephen Foster Hcap 128
2 I'll Have Another (US) Preakness Stakes 127
3 Bodemeister (US) Arkansas Derby 126
Caleb's Posse (US) Met Mile 126
5 Ron The Greek (US)
Stephen Foster Hcap 124
Shackleford (US) Met Mile 124
To Honor And Serve (US) Westchester S 124
8 Game On Dude (US) San Antonio 123
Smart Falcon (****) Kawasaki Kinen 123
Jackson Bend (US) Carter Handicap 123
Successful Dan (US) Alysheba Stakes 123
Union Rags (US) Belmont Stakes 123
TOP ALL-WEATHER PERFORMERS
1 Wise Dan (US) Ben Ali 128
2 Monterosso (UAE) Dubai World Cup 126
3 Game On Dude (US) Californian 123
Krypton Factor (BHR) Golden Shaheen 123
5 Musir (SAF) Maktoum Challenge R1 122
Colour Vision (GB) Sagaro Stakes 122
7 African Story (UAE) Godolphin Mile 121
8 Capponi (UAE) Dubai World Cup 120
9Planteur (GB) Dubai World Cup 119
10 Prince Bishop (UAE) Meydan Hcap 118
Dullahan (US) Blue Grass Stakes 118
So You Think (Ire) Dubai World Cup 118
Red Cadeaux (GB) Sagaro Stakes 118
Show More
Foetus,press the "alt" button whilst holding the i,that should do the trick.
Foetus how can you be wrong so many times in one post?
Mill Reef never lost his speed causing his defeat in the 2000 Gns. As a 2 year old My Swallow beat him a neck in the Prix Robert Papin. That was the only time in 15 outings either of the 2 had been beaten.
Apparently Mill Reef had a bad journey to France and connections, plus the bookies, expected to turn the tables albeit narrowly. That is exactly what happened he beat My Swallow 3 parts of a length in the 2000 Gns proving the form to be correct.
I said I thought Mill Reef was better than Dancing Brave and Timeform agreed. It is only my opinion.
If you read my other posts you will see that I have consistently stated Frankel is a great racehorse my only problem is I don't think he is the greatest of them all.
Everything about Frankel is appearance whereas everything about the other champions is form. I prefer form.
I just cannot accept that a horse easily beating lower grade horses is better than a horse easily beating high grade horses.
The horses Sea Bird 11 beat were of the highest quality and would have reigned in his absence. Reliance was only beaten by Sea Bird and won 2 of the Fench classics easily. The same applies to Brigadier Gerard. Without Brigadier Gerard Mill Reef would have been absolutely outstanding as champion.I simply do not think the horses Frankel has beaten would be or will be recognised as worthy champions in his absence.
Marcce Lammtarra was unbeaten and won the Derby, King George and Arc. Excelebration won the German 2000 Gns and the Prix Moulin and was beaten by Zoffany. You work it out.
Mill Reef never lost his speed causing his defeat in the 2000 Gns. As a 2 year old My Swallow beat him a neck in the Prix Robert Papin. That was the only time in 15 outings either of the 2 had been beaten.
Apparently Mill Reef had a bad journey to France and connections, plus the bookies, expected to turn the tables albeit narrowly. That is exactly what happened he beat My Swallow 3 parts of a length in the 2000 Gns proving the form to be correct.
I said I thought Mill Reef was better than Dancing Brave and Timeform agreed. It is only my opinion.
If you read my other posts you will see that I have consistently stated Frankel is a great racehorse my only problem is I don't think he is the greatest of them all.
Everything about Frankel is appearance whereas everything about the other champions is form. I prefer form.
I just cannot accept that a horse easily beating lower grade horses is better than a horse easily beating high grade horses.
The horses Sea Bird 11 beat were of the highest quality and would have reigned in his absence. Reliance was only beaten by Sea Bird and won 2 of the Fench classics easily. The same applies to Brigadier Gerard. Without Brigadier Gerard Mill Reef would have been absolutely outstanding as champion.I simply do not think the horses Frankel has beaten would be or will be recognised as worthy champions in his absence.
Marcce Lammtarra was unbeaten and won the Derby, King George and Arc. Excelebration won the German 2000 Gns and the Prix Moulin and was beaten by Zoffany. You work it out.
Brigust - again, I agree with most of what you write, but that legendary speed wasn't there against Brigadier Gerard.
Just try being a bit more respectful to Dancing Brave next time
Just try being a bit more respectful to Dancing Brave next time
Apologies. I rate DB higher than Frankel if you want to know. Had BG not run in the 2000 Gns you wouldn't be saying that. BG would have been a top class sprinter and was entered in the July Cup as a 3 year old and 4 year old. He was also entered in the Nunthorpe (5f) 2 days after the Benson & Hedges. Had he won the B&H he would have run in the Nunthorpe. He just had too much speed for Mill Reef and My Swallow and My Swallow was only just touched off in the July Cup before they retired him. On that formline alone Mill Reef would have won the July Cup.
Kauo Star was a great horse but too many horses like Denman and Long Run and Imperial Commander were too close to him. They can't all be great horses. Mill House (my favourite) was a great horse, a brute who crushed the opposition just like Frakel. He looked unbeatable but Arkle had the class and destroyed him. He was never the same again.
Kauo Star was a great horse but too many horses like Denman and Long Run and Imperial Commander were too close to him. They can't all be great horses. Mill House (my favourite) was a great horse, a brute who crushed the opposition just like Frakel. He looked unbeatable but Arkle had the class and destroyed him. He was never the same again.
Yarmy and a few others reckon Frankel could easily win the July Cup and then go and collect the Sussex and Judmonte brig.........possibly even the Arc.They are no mug judges either just because they are close to the horse.
Brigust I'm afraid what you're saying is a contradiction.
Other than his first ever race the only races Excelebration has been beaten in are the ones in which Frankel has raced.
There is enough collateral form to suggest his rating isn't far wrong. If Frankel weren't around he would be acknowledged as a miler comparable with the best milers we've seen certainly over the past decade or so. And Frankel has destroyed him every time they've met. Not just beaten him but destroyed him.
Similarly, Frankel is unbeaten and in far more races than Lammtarra was unbeaten in. He's also demolished the fields he's run against which is something Lammtarra didn't do. Lammtarra's opposition generally weren't highly rated horses. Yet you want to downplay one whilst seemingly lauding the other.
I wasn't around back then so can't comment on the merits of Brigadier Gerard's form nor Sea Bird 11. The way you paint it does seem like a no brainer but I can't accept that there isn't more than meets the eye to it given that so many assessors don't agree with you.
Other than his first ever race the only races Excelebration has been beaten in are the ones in which Frankel has raced.
There is enough collateral form to suggest his rating isn't far wrong. If Frankel weren't around he would be acknowledged as a miler comparable with the best milers we've seen certainly over the past decade or so. And Frankel has destroyed him every time they've met. Not just beaten him but destroyed him.
Similarly, Frankel is unbeaten and in far more races than Lammtarra was unbeaten in. He's also demolished the fields he's run against which is something Lammtarra didn't do. Lammtarra's opposition generally weren't highly rated horses. Yet you want to downplay one whilst seemingly lauding the other.
I wasn't around back then so can't comment on the merits of Brigadier Gerard's form nor Sea Bird 11. The way you paint it does seem like a no brainer but I can't accept that there isn't more than meets the eye to it given that so many assessors don't agree with you.
Marcce - whilst I accept that Excelebration is a high-class group one miler, I think I could name at least 20 that have raced this century who he'd be odds against in a match up.
He really is just a yardstick, unlike Canford Cliffs & Goldikova, though that doesn't detract from Frankel's brilliance in despatching him, as he can only beat those he races against.
I really hope Excelebration manages to do something outstanding this season, but I suspect it won't happen.
He really is just a yardstick, unlike Canford Cliffs & Goldikova, though that doesn't detract from Frankel's brilliance in despatching him, as he can only beat those he races against.
I really hope Excelebration manages to do something outstanding this season, but I suspect it won't happen.
i thought lammtarra was a smashing horse. id argue its godolphins greatest horse imo.
4 ever races and 3 were group ones
derby king george and arc... amazing. ok his derby prob wasnt the best but it still takes a special horse to do what he did.
some good horses in there too, swain, pintire who won the next yrs king george. swain (who beat pilsudski), lando was a multiple g1 winner.
smashing horsie.
4 ever races and 3 were group ones
derby king george and arc... amazing. ok his derby prob wasnt the best but it still takes a special horse to do what he did.
some good horses in there too, swain, pintire who won the next yrs king george. swain (who beat pilsudski), lando was a multiple g1 winner.
smashing horsie.
Almost broke the track record on soft ground , with a missing shoe and running off a true path , whilst increasing superiority over exceleb by 7 lengths ?
Still they are not sure
Still they are not sure
The Derby wasn't great but it was Lammtarra's second time on a race track, it's a huge performance.
Lammtara did beat top class horses later though, and plenty of them. Swain won multiple group 1's
and everyone knows what happened in The Breeders Cup classic, Ballanchine was beat a shd in The Guineas and won The Oaks and an Irish Derby, Carnegie won an Arc, Pure Grain won the Irish and Yorkshire Oaks, Pentire won a King George and an Irish Champion Stakes, Freedom Cry was beat a neck in The Breeders Cup turf, Carling won the Vermeille, there are shirley more too.
Lammtara did beat top class horses later though, and plenty of them. Swain won multiple group 1's
and everyone knows what happened in The Breeders Cup classic, Ballanchine was beat a shd in The Guineas and won The Oaks and an Irish Derby, Carnegie won an Arc, Pure Grain won the Irish and Yorkshire Oaks, Pentire won a King George and an Irish Champion Stakes, Freedom Cry was beat a neck in The Breeders Cup turf, Carling won the Vermeille, there are shirley more too.
hello :-) -Almost broke the track record on soft ground , with a missing shoe and running off a true path , whilst increasing superiority over exceleb by 7 lengths ? Still they are not sure
I'm sure he is an extraordinary horse, but the greatest ever?
I'd like to see him to it again a few more times, over 10f and against different horses.
I'm sure he is an extraordinary horse, but the greatest ever?
I'd like to see him to it again a few more times, over 10f and against different horses.
Hello, he lost the shoe AFTER the race ffs.
Although I don't rate Excelebration anywhere near 133 he never ran to form or simply didn't stay. I know he has won over a mile in France but that was a poor Group 1 by any standards and the same applies in Germany where Caspar Netscher won the same race this year beating a better horse than Excelebration beat and the 4th horse won at Royal Ascot the other day. Caspar Netscher is only rated 114 ffs and he is only a 6 furlong horse. With J O'B taking on Frankel he was likely to weaken out of it.
Of course Frankel is extraordinary. By cribbing his successes I am not claiming he is no good. I simply think he is being over-rated by Timeform.
My ratings are: Sea Bird 11 145, Brigadier Gerard (brilliant miler who stayed 12f) & Mill Reef on 144, Dancing Brave 141, Tudor Minstrel (brilliant miler who never stayed 12f) and Frankel (brilliant miler unproven at 12f) on 140 and Excelebration on 122. The last 2 can be rounded up or down as the season progresses.
Although I don't rate Excelebration anywhere near 133 he never ran to form or simply didn't stay. I know he has won over a mile in France but that was a poor Group 1 by any standards and the same applies in Germany where Caspar Netscher won the same race this year beating a better horse than Excelebration beat and the 4th horse won at Royal Ascot the other day. Caspar Netscher is only rated 114 ffs and he is only a 6 furlong horse. With J O'B taking on Frankel he was likely to weaken out of it.
Of course Frankel is extraordinary. By cribbing his successes I am not claiming he is no good. I simply think he is being over-rated by Timeform.
My ratings are: Sea Bird 11 145, Brigadier Gerard (brilliant miler who stayed 12f) & Mill Reef on 144, Dancing Brave 141, Tudor Minstrel (brilliant miler who never stayed 12f) and Frankel (brilliant miler unproven at 12f) on 140 and Excelebration on 122. The last 2 can be rounded up or down as the season progresses.
I wonder how the relative ratings of champions would be if the racing seasons of 2009-2012 were played out 40 years or more ago and we were now experiencing the so called golden period of the late 60's /early 70's today. I'm pretty sure brigust would be defending Sea The Stars and Frankel's performances from back then against the new brigade of Sea Bird II, Mill Reef, Nijinsky and Brigadier Gerard (who knows, in some parallel universe somewhere he may be) .... rightly or wrongly is irrelevant as comparing era's is nigh on impossible to any degree of accuracy. Like I said before, if every horse on the planet improved by 5lbs overnight in real terms, not one person on the planet would be aware of it.
I am not going to apologise for m opinions Grendel. Sadly, if you like it was at the beginning of my racing life and I was 24. I have to say I wish I were 24 today and Frankel was my hero, only for the age reason. But I'm not and I can't.
1970 -73.
Nijinsky 1111-1111122 Triple Crown winner
My Swallow 111111-122 Champion 2 year old, only horse to win all 4 top French races.
Mill Reef 111211-121111-11 Derby, Eclipse, King George, Arc, Prix Ganay and Coronation Cup. Retired with broken leg.
Brigadier Gerard 1111-111111-11111211 2000Gns, Sussex, Champion Stks (2),QE11(2), Eclipse, King George.
Rock Roi 3121 (disq) 11-1212 Champion Stayer ’71 & 72 Won Ascot Gold Cup twice but disqualified both times.
Athens Wood 011100-1135111 Fifth to Mill Reef in Derby. Unbeaten after. St Leger winner
Altesse Royale 1-2111 1000 Gns, Oaks & Irish Oaks
Deep Diver 11131242111-25211 Champion Sprinter ’72 & ‘73
Pistol Packer 21-3111112-123 Best filly in France beaten 3 lengths in Arc by Mill Reef
Roberto 1114-1210120-210 Beaten by High Top in 2000 gns. Won Derby, Benson & Hedges, Coronation Cup
Rheingold 141214-1111231 Grand Prix St Cloud (2), Arc
Parnell 111111033124-1122102 Irish St Leger, 2nd King George to Brigadier Gerard Champion Stayer ‘73
Sallust 04121-51111 Diomed, Sussex beating High Top, Porte Maillott, Prix Moulin beating the brilliant Lyphard with 2000 Gns winner High Top in third.
Allez France 11-1014122 Best horse in France beating Dahlia twice. 2nd to Rheingold in the Arc. Won the Arc in ’74.
Dahlia 1552-1312111501 Brilliant filly winning King George twice, Benson & Hedges, Washington International
Riverman 12-111132 Never beaten by a French horse. French 2000 Gns, 3rd to BG in King George.
Gay Lussac 1111-1115 Probably best horse in Italy since Ribot and beat Tierceron. 5th in BG’s King George.
Thatch 1114-14111 Champion miler ’73. St James Palace (15 lengths), July Cup (3 lengths) & Sussex Stakes (3 lengths). Should have won the 2000 Gns finished 4th,he beat the 5th horse 15 lengths in St J Palace.
Scottish Rifle 21162110-1112102103 Second to Steel Pulse (beaten 5 lengths by BG in receipt of 19 lbs in the POW Stakes) in Irish Derby. Won Eclipse and many others.
Just a snapshot of what a golden era it was. I have missed out so many points of reference but it would take too long.
1970 -73.
Nijinsky 1111-1111122 Triple Crown winner
My Swallow 111111-122 Champion 2 year old, only horse to win all 4 top French races.
Mill Reef 111211-121111-11 Derby, Eclipse, King George, Arc, Prix Ganay and Coronation Cup. Retired with broken leg.
Brigadier Gerard 1111-111111-11111211 2000Gns, Sussex, Champion Stks (2),QE11(2), Eclipse, King George.
Rock Roi 3121 (disq) 11-1212 Champion Stayer ’71 & 72 Won Ascot Gold Cup twice but disqualified both times.
Athens Wood 011100-1135111 Fifth to Mill Reef in Derby. Unbeaten after. St Leger winner
Altesse Royale 1-2111 1000 Gns, Oaks & Irish Oaks
Deep Diver 11131242111-25211 Champion Sprinter ’72 & ‘73
Pistol Packer 21-3111112-123 Best filly in France beaten 3 lengths in Arc by Mill Reef
Roberto 1114-1210120-210 Beaten by High Top in 2000 gns. Won Derby, Benson & Hedges, Coronation Cup
Rheingold 141214-1111231 Grand Prix St Cloud (2), Arc
Parnell 111111033124-1122102 Irish St Leger, 2nd King George to Brigadier Gerard Champion Stayer ‘73
Sallust 04121-51111 Diomed, Sussex beating High Top, Porte Maillott, Prix Moulin beating the brilliant Lyphard with 2000 Gns winner High Top in third.
Allez France 11-1014122 Best horse in France beating Dahlia twice. 2nd to Rheingold in the Arc. Won the Arc in ’74.
Dahlia 1552-1312111501 Brilliant filly winning King George twice, Benson & Hedges, Washington International
Riverman 12-111132 Never beaten by a French horse. French 2000 Gns, 3rd to BG in King George.
Gay Lussac 1111-1115 Probably best horse in Italy since Ribot and beat Tierceron. 5th in BG’s King George.
Thatch 1114-14111 Champion miler ’73. St James Palace (15 lengths), July Cup (3 lengths) & Sussex Stakes (3 lengths). Should have won the 2000 Gns finished 4th,he beat the 5th horse 15 lengths in St J Palace.
Scottish Rifle 21162110-1112102103 Second to Steel Pulse (beaten 5 lengths by BG in receipt of 19 lbs in the POW Stakes) in Irish Derby. Won Eclipse and many others.
Just a snapshot of what a golden era it was. I have missed out so many points of reference but it would take too long.
Fair enough about your opinions brigust and i'm not saying you're definitely wrong as my first flat season was 1986 when I was 17 and nobody can have any valid opinions of racing before their time but I know it's human nature to look back with biased opinions of virtually everything from your youth. I think you're being pretty harsh on Excelebration as in his pattern race career he has only been beaten by two horses in 5 group 1's and 4 other group races and give him his due, he could have avoided Frankel more often in search of wins in pattern company. If Frankel wasn't born then it would be fair to say that Excelebration would have otherwise been by far the top miler around.
I cannot have that Grendel. Lots of horses avaoided Frankel who wouldn't have avoided Excelebration. And I don't even think Excelebration stays a truly run mile. Zoffany beat him in the St Jame Palace ffs with Neebras a head away. I think saying that is wrong. You cannot take the winner away and think the 2nd would have been the winner, it doesn't work that way. And you have to ask yourself why keep banging your head against Frankel when there are lots of, so called, easier pots to bag.
Again brigust you are cherry-picking, picking the one unorthodox race as an example of his performances - and you're taking what i'm saying out of context. I'm afraid you're so wrapped up in trying to prove something that your rational thought is impaired.
Grendel, been out shopping. Shocking day for having a bet.
Stop insulting me. I come up with response to you and I am the one all screwed up. You don't think you might be do you? Try to debate, that is what I do.
I don't think Excelebration stays a truly run mile at the top grade. That is why he was beaten in the St James Palace and that is why he weakened so dramatically in the Queen Anne.
The German 2000 Gns he won was won this year by Caspar Netscher. Another horse I don't think will stay a truly run mile at the top grade. And it won't take trainers long to sort that out when they took him on without Frankel. Only now they are not in charge of the pace the race is run at so the don't run.
That is simply my opinion and we will see at the end of the season how that works out.
Stop insulting me. I come up with response to you and I am the one all screwed up. You don't think you might be do you? Try to debate, that is what I do.
I don't think Excelebration stays a truly run mile at the top grade. That is why he was beaten in the St James Palace and that is why he weakened so dramatically in the Queen Anne.
The German 2000 Gns he won was won this year by Caspar Netscher. Another horse I don't think will stay a truly run mile at the top grade. And it won't take trainers long to sort that out when they took him on without Frankel. Only now they are not in charge of the pace the race is run at so the don't run.
That is simply my opinion and we will see at the end of the season how that works out.
Been in work all day so first chance to respond.
My point about Lammtarra is that if you want to pick holes in Frankel's form or even Excelebration's for that matter, it sure isn't hard to do the same with Lammtarra.
Strategic Choice 3rd behind it in the King George beaten less than 2 lengths?
And I think it's fair to say that Carnegie certainly wasn't the horse at 4 he was at 3 and Swain certainly wasn't the horse at 3 he became later in his career.
My point about Lammtarra is that if you want to pick holes in Frankel's form or even Excelebration's for that matter, it sure isn't hard to do the same with Lammtarra.
Strategic Choice 3rd behind it in the King George beaten less than 2 lengths?
And I think it's fair to say that Carnegie certainly wasn't the horse at 4 he was at 3 and Swain certainly wasn't the horse at 3 he became later in his career.
I'm sorry if you felt insulted brigust (my 2nd forum apology today), it wasn't an intention. I just feel you have a fixed position that every single element points to and there is nothing i've said that suggests i am saying he (excelebration) should be credited with winning all the group 1's he finished 2nd to Frankel in a hypothetical situation of his absence. It seems you are judging Excelebration on his distant runner-up spots behind Frankel with a blinkered view that Frankel cannot be as good as your bygone heroes.
Good grief I don't want an apology Grendel. I just lve debate all of the points. I study old form almost all of the time. I never saw all of the old greats so I have no personal atachment. It is sad when people think you have an ulterior motive. I don't think the footballers were better, or the swmmers or tennis players. But I do like to compare generations of racehorses. You know it isn't as difficult as the press make it out to be. Please don't stop giving your opinion it often means the question is more deeply researched and not just accepted blindly.
On RUK tonight Steve Mellish said 'you would have to be blind not to see that Frankel was the best horse ever'. Well I'm blind, metaphorically of course.
Marcce you wre nicely selective there. I prefer to judge a horse by what he beat and Lammtarra beat Pentire in only his 3rd ever race. Pentire was a multiple Group 1 winner beat another multiple Group 1 winner Singspiel on two occasions.
Pentire, as a 4 year old, won the King George giving a stone and a beating to that years Derby winner Shaamit.
Carnegie won the Arc and in between defeats by Lammtarra in the King George and Arc he beat Balanchine who had won the Oaks and Irish Derby.
Do you really think that form is suspect and that Excelebrations is rock solid? Do you?
The whole form set up is Group 1 including Swain, Singspiel and Pilsudski.
On RUK tonight Steve Mellish said 'you would have to be blind not to see that Frankel was the best horse ever'. Well I'm blind, metaphorically of course.
Marcce you wre nicely selective there. I prefer to judge a horse by what he beat and Lammtarra beat Pentire in only his 3rd ever race. Pentire was a multiple Group 1 winner beat another multiple Group 1 winner Singspiel on two occasions.
Pentire, as a 4 year old, won the King George giving a stone and a beating to that years Derby winner Shaamit.
Carnegie won the Arc and in between defeats by Lammtarra in the King George and Arc he beat Balanchine who had won the Oaks and Irish Derby.
Do you really think that form is suspect and that Excelebrations is rock solid? Do you?
The whole form set up is Group 1 including Swain, Singspiel and Pilsudski.
Brigust what I'm saying is that it's easy to pick holes in the form if that's what you set out to do.
You say he beat multiple Group 1 winner Pentire and I pointed out they were only a length and a half ahead of Strategic Choice in 3rd who was giving them both 12 pounds.
You're reeling off ohhh he was a Derby winner (I mean Shaamit really?), she was an Irish Derby winner, he won the Arc but has it occurred to you that whilst a few of those horses went on to win many Group 1's, the overall standard wasn't really that high?
I was a big fan of Pentire from the time he won the King Edward V11 but I would never even begin to think of him as a great.
You say he beat multiple Group 1 winner Pentire and I pointed out they were only a length and a half ahead of Strategic Choice in 3rd who was giving them both 12 pounds.
You're reeling off ohhh he was a Derby winner (I mean Shaamit really?), she was an Irish Derby winner, he won the Arc but has it occurred to you that whilst a few of those horses went on to win many Group 1's, the overall standard wasn't really that high?
I was a big fan of Pentire from the time he won the King Edward V11 but I would never even begin to think of him as a great.
something has to run 2nd and 3rd to 'greats' and if theyve won all the best races in their respective countries then thats better than just running 2nd to one horse all the time imo.
the margin between very good and great isnt that much imo it may be a nose but its the champions that continue to win , sometimes when defeat is looking them square in the face that seperates them from the rest of their thoroughbred brothers and sisters imo.
Of course they are not greats but they are solid Group 1 horses.
Both Pentire and Lammtarra beat Strategic Choice by 28 lengths. Strategic Choice was rated 115 that is 2lbs higher than Side Glance who finished level with Excelebration and only 11 lengths behind Frankel.
After Strategic Choice's 3rd in the King George behind Lammtarra Strategic Choice won a Group 1 at the Curragh. He then met Lammtarra in the Arc and was beaten 28 lengths. The following year he won a Group 1 in Italy then was beaten 28 lengths by Pentire in the King George. Almost immediately after that he finished only a couple of lengths behind Singspiel in the Group 1 Japan Cup.
Pretty solid form if you ask me.
For Excelebration to be rated the same as Lammtarra he should have beaten Side Glance by a minimum of 28 lengths. Allow for the fact it was a mile race round that down to 11 lengths. Where was he?
See what I mean.
Both Pentire and Lammtarra beat Strategic Choice by 28 lengths. Strategic Choice was rated 115 that is 2lbs higher than Side Glance who finished level with Excelebration and only 11 lengths behind Frankel.
After Strategic Choice's 3rd in the King George behind Lammtarra Strategic Choice won a Group 1 at the Curragh. He then met Lammtarra in the Arc and was beaten 28 lengths. The following year he won a Group 1 in Italy then was beaten 28 lengths by Pentire in the King George. Almost immediately after that he finished only a couple of lengths behind Singspiel in the Group 1 Japan Cup.
Pretty solid form if you ask me.
For Excelebration to be rated the same as Lammtarra he should have beaten Side Glance by a minimum of 28 lengths. Allow for the fact it was a mile race round that down to 11 lengths. Where was he?
See what I mean.
i dont think the standard of training or horses has changed much since the old days tbh. how could it? facilities may be better and advanced breeding techniques but all in all not much has changed. trainers knew what a horse had to do to win these great races and still do now. the ability is backed up by the fact that times havent really changed over the years. i mean if there really was an advance in the thoroughbred im confident a significant amount of time wouldve be shaved off records.
look at secretariats time in the belmont, still stands. so if arc and king george winners were getting beat by a particular horse (ideally more than once) then its prob safe to say its an exceptional horse.
thats just my theory anyway.
look at secretariats time in the belmont, still stands. so if arc and king george winners were getting beat by a particular horse (ideally more than once) then its prob safe to say its an exceptional horse.
thats just my theory anyway.
I agree with a lot of that Ilwab. What I think has changed is course management. Ther is much more attention paid to racecourses now and I think they drain better. I also think the 'global warning' bit may have an effect though I have no definitive proof. And I think jockeys are fitter and with all f the technology ride races differently.
Add to that there are twice the number of Group 1's so horses don't have to keep switching distances to get a run.
Add to that there are twice the number of Group 1's so horses don't have to keep switching distances to get a run.
Brig...........you get better by the day.........Global warming?
Ffs..........start drinking like the rest of us.
That is exactly why I have a problem with Frankel being rated 'best ever' racehorse.
Here we have a genuine 115 rated racehorse who between 28 length defeats by Lammtarra and Pentire won the Irish St Leger beating the English St Leger winner Moonax, and the Irish St Leger/Melbourne Cup winner Vintage Crop.
Whereas Side Glance who has only won 2 Group 3's beating the same horse and is rated 113. It doesn't add up ffs.
GT stop drinking and start reading I said 'may' have an effect 'I have no definitive proof'. Have you waited all night for that gem? Deary me.
And it may not be as stupid as you think. The reservoirs are empty most of the time, there are hosepipe bans most of the time and racecourses are forced to water most of the time. I don't remember any of that in the 70's.
Here we have a genuine 115 rated racehorse who between 28 length defeats by Lammtarra and Pentire won the Irish St Leger beating the English St Leger winner Moonax, and the Irish St Leger/Melbourne Cup winner Vintage Crop.
Whereas Side Glance who has only won 2 Group 3's beating the same horse and is rated 113. It doesn't add up ffs.
GT stop drinking and start reading I said 'may' have an effect 'I have no definitive proof'. Have you waited all night for that gem? Deary me.
And it may not be as stupid as you think. The reservoirs are empty most of the time, there are hosepipe bans most of the time and racecourses are forced to water most of the time. I don't remember any of that in the 70's.
He lost the shoe during the race brigust , probably why he veered .
When they step him up and he scares all the opposition away what will people say then i wonder ?
When they step him up and he scares all the opposition away what will people say then i wonder ?
theyll say why did it take so long to step him up.
theyll say why didnt he run in the eclipse AS WELL as the juddmonte.
theyll say why did he run in the sussex.
etc etc...
theyll say why didnt he run in the eclipse AS WELL as the juddmonte.
theyll say why did he run in the sussex.
etc etc...
If you read the RP Hello the chap who found it saw it come off AFTER the race and picked it up.
'Initially it was thought Frankel lost his off-fore shoe in the race but in fact it came off during the post race victory parade'.
'Initially it was thought Frankel lost his off-fore shoe in the race but in fact it came off during the post race victory parade'.
Brig,I do not wait for gems from you like that,nor do I just cherry pick what suits.I agree with you regarding the ratings but you cannot pick and choose what suit you either.
Numbers and stats are for idiots and you know it,it is what the eyes see in real time that count.In that respect we are not so far apart.
Me and ilwab have been the eyes for years,not to mention ryanwe and a few others.None of us have as far as I know claimed Frankel as the best ever.......YET.........but the possibility is there?
Numbers and stats are for idiots and you know it,it is what the eyes see in real time that count.In that respect we are not so far apart.
Me and ilwab have been the eyes for years,not to mention ryanwe and a few others.None of us have as far as I know claimed Frankel as the best ever.......YET.........but the possibility is there?
okay brigust apologies for the misinformation ,
I do think henry has trained the horse to perfection , best yet to come with the step up though and the sussex is a very important part of the plan
I do think henry has trained the horse to perfection , best yet to come with the step up though and the sussex is a very important part of the plan
Good to here it GT. There are those who follow the crowd and those who make their own mind up. I like to think I am one of the latter.
Sorry Hello, I'm really not meaning to be awkward but all Henry has managed to do is fit enough headgear to stop the horse running off at will. He has managed to get all of the races run to suit and no hiccups. He still hasn't proven the horse can run around a bend yet ffs. In the St James Palace he nearly came unstuck and luckily only Zoffany was close enough. Had it been a good horse that would have been it.
The press have nothing else to talk about because the other British horses aren't up to much. A German filly won the Arc with the Derby and St Leger winners tailed off. The major middle distance races are being won by a 6 year old Aussie horse and the sprinters aren't exactly great with both Ascot Sprints going abroad. And a German horse won at Royal Ascot.
In the land of the blind the one-eyed man is king.
Sorry Hello, I'm really not meaning to be awkward but all Henry has managed to do is fit enough headgear to stop the horse running off at will. He has managed to get all of the races run to suit and no hiccups. He still hasn't proven the horse can run around a bend yet ffs. In the St James Palace he nearly came unstuck and luckily only Zoffany was close enough. Had it been a good horse that would have been it.
The press have nothing else to talk about because the other British horses aren't up to much. A German filly won the Arc with the Derby and St Leger winners tailed off. The major middle distance races are being won by a 6 year old Aussie horse and the sprinters aren't exactly great with both Ascot Sprints going abroad. And a German horse won at Royal Ascot.
In the land of the blind the one-eyed man is king.
Going to put up a new thread brig,ilwab et al............let us see where it goes.........wont be on a par with RP being reported but serious racing fans will surely have a say?
G&T - I'm not gonna hide...I have my balls under the chopper about Frankel being EASILY the best miler I've seen, but as I don't go back as far as Brigadier Gerard, I don't like to get roped into hypothetical musings I'm really not as qualified as many to comment on.
Conversely, I think it's very harsh on other champions of years gone by, to claim Frankel's the best of all time, as he just hasn't earned that accolade yet!
For me that honour still belongs to Dancing Brave, even though I believe he wouldn't have seen which way Frankel went over a mile.
There's NO DOUBT Frankel's a fantastic MILER, but he just hasn't been tested enough - hopefully that will happen, and I really CANNOT see him failing to repeat the dose over further.
He certainly looks more tractable nowadays, and for that reason, even 12f might not be out of the question, and if his exploits over 8f are replicated over 10f AND 12f, the debate about 'the greatest' will cease!
I'm not patronising you guys with something you don't already know, a la Jamie Lynch, but I'm just salivating at the prospect of a Juddmonte demolition, and anticipating a tilt at the Arc - we can dream can't we?
IF that happens...it doesn't mean the Frankel dissenters would have been wrong, as they've been right to question his connections' reluctance to really test him.
Does anyone else believe that Khalid Abdullah harbours regrets about packing Dancing Brave off to stud without a 4yo campaign, and maybe a quarter of a century later, on a much older & wiser head he might want to show the world just how good Frankel really is?
Is there a possibility we could see him over 12f NEXT year?
I'm sure he's 100% behind Henry and surely the trainer would want another season out of him?
It's not THAT much to ask...is it?
Conversely, I think it's very harsh on other champions of years gone by, to claim Frankel's the best of all time, as he just hasn't earned that accolade yet!
For me that honour still belongs to Dancing Brave, even though I believe he wouldn't have seen which way Frankel went over a mile.
There's NO DOUBT Frankel's a fantastic MILER, but he just hasn't been tested enough - hopefully that will happen, and I really CANNOT see him failing to repeat the dose over further.
He certainly looks more tractable nowadays, and for that reason, even 12f might not be out of the question, and if his exploits over 8f are replicated over 10f AND 12f, the debate about 'the greatest' will cease!
I'm not patronising you guys with something you don't already know, a la Jamie Lynch, but I'm just salivating at the prospect of a Juddmonte demolition, and anticipating a tilt at the Arc - we can dream can't we?
IF that happens...it doesn't mean the Frankel dissenters would have been wrong, as they've been right to question his connections' reluctance to really test him.
Does anyone else believe that Khalid Abdullah harbours regrets about packing Dancing Brave off to stud without a 4yo campaign, and maybe a quarter of a century later, on a much older & wiser head he might want to show the world just how good Frankel really is?
Is there a possibility we could see him over 12f NEXT year?
I'm sure he's 100% behind Henry and surely the trainer would want another season out of him?
It's not THAT much to ask...is it?
what is best tho?
to me the guineas,derby,eclipse,juddmonte,irish champ and arc is the best.
some will say sts wouldnt beat frankel over a mile, yes probably not.
but frankel couldnt do what sts did, hell he didnt.
he run over a mile nore times than i care to remember tho, all this with the middle distance pedigree.
even IF frankel wins the judd and eclipse, so what, he never once came out of his comfort zone, ALWAYS on his terms, never with any real sense of competitiveness from henry. I'm really disappointed anyway, waiting , always waiting.
to me the guineas,derby,eclipse,juddmonte,irish champ and arc is the best.
some will say sts wouldnt beat frankel over a mile, yes probably not.
but frankel couldnt do what sts did, hell he didnt.
he run over a mile nore times than i care to remember tho, all this with the middle distance pedigree.
even IF frankel wins the judd and eclipse, so what, he never once came out of his comfort zone, ALWAYS on his terms, never with any real sense of competitiveness from henry. I'm really disappointed anyway, waiting , always waiting.
great points from brigust and stamina to keep going.
but unfortunately all these well constructed assessments have to pitched up against lines like "the best ever ...." "such and such wouldn't have seen what way horse-x went" "pure nostalgia" etc etc
couple of years from now another visually impressive, hyped-up horse will come along smash a few solid but far from exceptional opponents and they'll then become the greatest. Then a couple of years on another one will turn-up with a turn of foot like nothing before or some nonsense like that will then become the greatest and so it goes on. think theres been about 3 or 4 horses of a lifetime in the last half-decade
However the reason why horses like el gran senor are remembered 30 years later is because the horses he smashed then smashed everything else and then some of the everything else which had been smashed by el gran senors victims then came out the next year and cleaned up against the next generation. Not suggesting the analysis is flawless but I'd take it over "didn't he look powerful when he won that race" analysis - all day ever day.
Sinndar - never mentioned in these dabates. Sakhee and Montjeu scapled, two derbys and an arc. Yes he probably wasn't as versatile distance wise as some so thats one negative versus many positives. Good to see Lammtarra get a mention, another absolutely rock-solid top class horse who rarely seems to rate a mention.
Now that aidan has worked out how to train so you think properly no doubt so you think will be the greatest ever (again).
but unfortunately all these well constructed assessments have to pitched up against lines like "the best ever ...." "such and such wouldn't have seen what way horse-x went" "pure nostalgia" etc etc
couple of years from now another visually impressive, hyped-up horse will come along smash a few solid but far from exceptional opponents and they'll then become the greatest. Then a couple of years on another one will turn-up with a turn of foot like nothing before or some nonsense like that will then become the greatest and so it goes on. think theres been about 3 or 4 horses of a lifetime in the last half-decade
However the reason why horses like el gran senor are remembered 30 years later is because the horses he smashed then smashed everything else and then some of the everything else which had been smashed by el gran senors victims then came out the next year and cleaned up against the next generation. Not suggesting the analysis is flawless but I'd take it over "didn't he look powerful when he won that race" analysis - all day ever day.
Sinndar - never mentioned in these dabates. Sakhee and Montjeu scapled, two derbys and an arc. Yes he probably wasn't as versatile distance wise as some so thats one negative versus many positives. Good to see Lammtarra get a mention, another absolutely rock-solid top class horse who rarely seems to rate a mention.
Now that aidan has worked out how to train so you think properly no doubt so you think will be the greatest ever (again).
ILWAB...............STS is the best.......no arguments.
NO horse has ever done what he did...........a long time waiting for his equal imo.
NO horse has ever done what he did...........a long time waiting for his equal imo.
I can't crab Sea The Stars in any way as I appreciate his achievements even more as the months rolls by (because I was a doubter at the time) but I'm sorry Maysoon...I hated that plodder Sinndar 
"I hated that plodder Sinndar"
that really did make me laugh
that really did make me laugh
One day soon , and its not that far away we will all be left with the memory of Frankel in training and racing , there is an old saying "you cant see the wood for the trees " and i think many have that attitude now .
It doesnt matter what it has or hasnt done , all that will matter is the memory we will have of this great animal , in 20 years you wont be telling the grandkids " oh the bugger never stepped it up"
You will look back on the power and magnificence of a horse that lifted the conciousness of the racing fan and elevated the racehorse to new hieghts , and captured the imagination of the racing WORLD
The racing world stops when this horse enters the stalls , with very good reason and as much as i understand the frustration of distances , when you ever remember frankel in future ask yourself what is the first thing that will enter your head ..it deserves its current placing that much is already true
It doesnt matter what it has or hasnt done , all that will matter is the memory we will have of this great animal , in 20 years you wont be telling the grandkids " oh the bugger never stepped it up"
You will look back on the power and magnificence of a horse that lifted the conciousness of the racing fan and elevated the racehorse to new hieghts , and captured the imagination of the racing WORLD
The racing world stops when this horse enters the stalls , with very good reason and as much as i understand the frustration of distances , when you ever remember frankel in future ask yourself what is the first thing that will enter your head ..it deserves its current placing that much is already true
Sorry again Maysoon, but even though he eventually hosed up in the Irish Derby by about 10 lengths, he looked beaten entering the straight!
If there was I/R betting on here in those days, he'd have traded at some price, even after his main rival was obviously finished.
The most dull dual classic winner it's possible to imagine!
I'll have a side bet that very few people (without cheating) can recall one of the FIVE that followed him home - that's long odds-on as I see it!
An opportunist thief in the extreme...Sakhee was a wonderful colt that wasn't the finished article on Derby day, King's Best (after his fantastic 2000 guineas win) went wrong in the Irish derby and the French Derby winner Holding Court (who won the most disgusting Chantilly renewal) just never ran within a stone of his best!
Then it was the turn of the great Montjeu to run a shocker in that Arc, and the fillies Sinndar beat were poor group one winners!
Sinndar's career can be compared to a football match...Liverpool v AC Milan
We all have our favourites mate, but although he may have been a friend of yours...he was a foe for me
I hope you don't think I'm being an obnoxious turd but I really couldn't stand that horse, and I HATE the Aga Khan's policy of retiring his group one winners (aside from a few exceptions like Daylami who he leased, Azamour & Sarafina) after a 3yo campaign, as maybe Sinndar could have shown us so much more at 4, even though he'd have encountered Galileo!
If there was I/R betting on here in those days, he'd have traded at some price, even after his main rival was obviously finished.
The most dull dual classic winner it's possible to imagine!
I'll have a side bet that very few people (without cheating) can recall one of the FIVE that followed him home - that's long odds-on as I see it!
An opportunist thief in the extreme...Sakhee was a wonderful colt that wasn't the finished article on Derby day, King's Best (after his fantastic 2000 guineas win) went wrong in the Irish derby and the French Derby winner Holding Court (who won the most disgusting Chantilly renewal) just never ran within a stone of his best!
Then it was the turn of the great Montjeu to run a shocker in that Arc, and the fillies Sinndar beat were poor group one winners!
Sinndar's career can be compared to a football match...Liverpool v AC Milan
We all have our favourites mate, but although he may have been a friend of yours...he was a foe for me
I hope you don't think I'm being an obnoxious turd but I really couldn't stand that horse, and I HATE the Aga Khan's policy of retiring his group one winners (aside from a few exceptions like Daylami who he leased, Azamour & Sarafina) after a 3yo campaign, as maybe Sinndar could have shown us so much more at 4, even though he'd have encountered Galileo!
Hello, I have no doubt that I'm as much a fan of the horse as you are but I'm afraid that in my future when my kids or grandkids ask me about Frankel my Mrs will be saying "ohhhhh jaysus, don't bring that up again.." because I'm going to be saying "he was an incredible horse but.....(insert rant)......." there will be the BUT.
It winds me up far more than something outside of my control should do really, great horses with a pedigree and ability like Frankel do great things during their classic season, but Frankel wasn't given the chance to.
I'll always love Henry, and Prince Khali has owned some of my fave horses but I've lost a fair bit of respect for them as sportsmen.
It winds me up far more than something outside of my control should do really, great horses with a pedigree and ability like Frankel do great things during their classic season, but Frankel wasn't given the chance to.
I'll always love Henry, and Prince Khali has owned some of my fave horses but I've lost a fair bit of respect for them as sportsmen.
yes a lucky coincindence for sinndar that all his main opponents under-performed in all his races which allowed him to plod all over them
These are all great racehorses. El Gran Senor and my favourite Montjeu but he wasn't a miler. Brigadier Gerard was a top class miler who won Group 1's at a variety of distance from 6f to 12f. He beat a great horse in Mill Reef and an exceptional horse in Rheingold. That is what I think sets him apart.
Frankel is a great miler. Montjeu was a great 12f horse. Then it comes down to form.
Frankel in the Queen Anne, at level weights, beat the 113 rated Side Glance by 11 lengths. Side Glance was 4 lengths behind him 3 out and he pulled 7 lengths further clear.
Brigadier Gerard in the QE11 1972, giving 14lbs, beat the 120 rated Redundant by 11 lengths. Brigadier Gerard and Redundant were level one and a half furlongs out from which point he sprinted 11 lengths clear. In course record time.
I will be magnanimous and say one is not better than the other so how does Frankel get to be rated 147 whereas BG is rated 144. Plus Frankel has never beaten a great horse or even an exceptional horse.
The Frankel race is supposed to be where Frankel achieved his highest rating. Sorry, I just don't see it.
Frankel is a great miler. Montjeu was a great 12f horse. Then it comes down to form.
Frankel in the Queen Anne, at level weights, beat the 113 rated Side Glance by 11 lengths. Side Glance was 4 lengths behind him 3 out and he pulled 7 lengths further clear.
Brigadier Gerard in the QE11 1972, giving 14lbs, beat the 120 rated Redundant by 11 lengths. Brigadier Gerard and Redundant were level one and a half furlongs out from which point he sprinted 11 lengths clear. In course record time.
I will be magnanimous and say one is not better than the other so how does Frankel get to be rated 147 whereas BG is rated 144. Plus Frankel has never beaten a great horse or even an exceptional horse.
The Frankel race is supposed to be where Frankel achieved his highest rating. Sorry, I just don't see it.
Why on earth was Brigadier Gerard giving any horse 14lbs at the back end of the season over 1 mile?
Good morning brigust, i just watched your video on youtube ... i take it none of his 3 opponents that day had up until that race won a group 1 or group 2 race, and the race itself was Group 2 up until 1987
i see you have 7 uploads on You tube, all of them races won by Brigadier Gerard, are you by any chance obsessed with the horse?
Hi Grendel, just took the grandchildren out for a walk. Bit muggy but dry at least.
Because BG has not needed any press for the last 40 years I thought the tv pundits and younger forumite wouldn't know anything about him. So I put together a few clips I had collected and put them on Utube. It allows those unfamiliar with his races or ability to at least form a fairly balanced view.
Sparkler was rated 129. As you probably know among his 13 successes he won the Lockinge, Queen Anne, Prix Moulin among many others. As a 3 year old he was rated 130 having 6 runs and only being beaten twice both in photos. The first by Brigadier Gerard in the St James Palace and the 2nd by Dictus in the Prix Jaques le Marios. In the latter race he was a short priced favourie in a field that included the French 1000 Gns winner and the Queen Anne winner. He easily beat them but was nabbed on the line by Dictus.
Dictus then came to England for the QE11 and was beaten a pointless 8 lengths by BG and then retired.
And Timeform rate Excebration a better horse. Mad.
Because BG has not needed any press for the last 40 years I thought the tv pundits and younger forumite wouldn't know anything about him. So I put together a few clips I had collected and put them on Utube. It allows those unfamiliar with his races or ability to at least form a fairly balanced view.
Sparkler was rated 129. As you probably know among his 13 successes he won the Lockinge, Queen Anne, Prix Moulin among many others. As a 3 year old he was rated 130 having 6 runs and only being beaten twice both in photos. The first by Brigadier Gerard in the St James Palace and the 2nd by Dictus in the Prix Jaques le Marios. In the latter race he was a short priced favourie in a field that included the French 1000 Gns winner and the Queen Anne winner. He easily beat them but was nabbed on the line by Dictus.
Dictus then came to England for the QE11 and was beaten a pointless 8 lengths by BG and then retired.
And Timeform rate Excebration a better horse. Mad.
you make a good case brigust.
certainly on paper bg looks the superior, his form and weight carrying performances look outstanding. obv we'll never know if frankel is better or worse but to me it just shows how incredibly stupid timeform are given bri gave 14lbs to a 120 rated horse and gave it an 11L beating in courses rec time. i mean how on that form line alone can they justify frankels performance a better one? i dunno anyway, good thing i dont think sh!t of time form eh.
certainly on paper bg looks the superior, his form and weight carrying performances look outstanding. obv we'll never know if frankel is better or worse but to me it just shows how incredibly stupid timeform are given bri gave 14lbs to a 120 rated horse and gave it an 11L beating in courses rec time. i mean how on that form line alone can they justify frankels performance a better one? i dunno anyway, good thing i dont think sh!t of time form eh.
back then the Lockinge was classed as Group 2 and the Queen Anne was Group 3
he gave 7lbs not 14lbs in reality as wfa is factored into ratings
what was the final time of that QE2 brigust because wikipedia don't seem to have a time for the race?
ILWAB, on that basis Youmzain should be rated above Sea The Stars in the 2009 arc as he was giving him 8lbs and only got beat 2 lengths but you wouldn't agree to that would you
I might have it somewhere Grendel. Anyway they never went flat out in the early stages because Lester on Sparkler, who often front run or took it up a long way out, thought BG would be suffering from winning the KG over 12f and being beating course record time at York over nearly 11f. Redundent has just won the Brittania at Royal Ascot and was rated 120. And Sparkler was coming off 2 wins one at Deauville in course record time.
Apparently, according to sources Lester's plan was to out sprint him over the last furlong. That is why he spent over a furlong looking behind to see where BG was.
The following season Sparkler murdered Kalamoun in the Prix Moulin. Kalamoun was undoubtedly the best miler in France having not stayed in heavy groud in the French Derby finishing a 2 length 7th. He won the French 2000 Gns, Prix Lupin and Prix Jacques le Marios.
That is what I mean. The horses all around BG are winning top races and beating horses who are winning top races. Frankel has beaten Excelebration who has won 1 weak Group 1 and Zoffany and Side Glance ffs. The beaten horses behind Excelebration I have listed before and none have won even a listed race and Side Glance has won 2 Group 3's beating Dance and Dance. It just doesn't add up.
Apparently, according to sources Lester's plan was to out sprint him over the last furlong. That is why he spent over a furlong looking behind to see where BG was.
The following season Sparkler murdered Kalamoun in the Prix Moulin. Kalamoun was undoubtedly the best miler in France having not stayed in heavy groud in the French Derby finishing a 2 length 7th. He won the French 2000 Gns, Prix Lupin and Prix Jacques le Marios.
That is what I mean. The horses all around BG are winning top races and beating horses who are winning top races. Frankel has beaten Excelebration who has won 1 weak Group 1 and Zoffany and Side Glance ffs. The beaten horses behind Excelebration I have listed before and none have won even a listed race and Side Glance has won 2 Group 3's beating Dance and Dance. It just doesn't add up.
I know you refer to races like the Lockinge as Group 2 etc but they were upgraded to Group 1. The only difference is that horses running today don't have to carry a penalty. The same horses would have been running in them as today. In fact I think the Lockinge is closed to 3 year olds now. BG had to give nearly 2 stone to a 3 year old in his Lckinge who had won 2 Guineas trials by 5 and 6 lengths and had been 2nd favourite for the 2000 Gns. And he beat him 2 and a half lengths easily.
The Lockinge was actually downgraded to Group 3 in 1983 before being upgraded to group 2 again in 1985 and was only upgraded to group 1 in 1995. Yes 3yo's were running in it til it became group 1 for 4yo+
You can't use wfa as though it's a handicap, 12lb's would have been the wfa for a mile in late May and if it was such a big advantage for 3yo's to receive that weight why did very few 3yo's win the Lockinge.
Welsh Pageant was the best miler before BG and he won the Lockinge 2 years running. The pattern wasn't introduced until 1972 and milers were not necessarilly treated as the cream of the crop. In fact apart from the English and Irish Guineas the only other 1 mile races at Group 1 were the Sussex Stakes, Prix Jacques le Marois and Prix Moulin. That is where all of th best milers turned up so to win those races then was a real achievement unlike today.
Brigadier Gerard won the 2000 Gns and Sussex from his 7 one mile wins.
Sparkler won the Moulin beating Kalamoun who had won the French 2000 Gns and Jacques le Marois.
Gold Rod won the Moulin and was just touched of by Humble Duty in the Sussex. Humbe Duty won the 1000 Gns by 7 lengths.
Faraway Son beaten 5 lengths by BG in the Sussex then won the Marois and the Moulin and was otherwise unbeaten over a mile that season.
I could go on but see where I am coming from Gren?
Brigadier Gerard won the 2000 Gns and Sussex from his 7 one mile wins.
Sparkler won the Moulin beating Kalamoun who had won the French 2000 Gns and Jacques le Marois.
Gold Rod won the Moulin and was just touched of by Humble Duty in the Sussex. Humbe Duty won the 1000 Gns by 7 lengths.
Faraway Son beaten 5 lengths by BG in the Sussex then won the Marois and the Moulin and was otherwise unbeaten over a mile that season.
I could go on but see where I am coming from Gren?
Just out of interest i've used the winning times of King George VI races since 1951 and done 10 year averages starting from 1951-1960 up until 2002-2011, this may go some way to illustrate the gradual progression of quality of racehorse over that period:-
1951/1960__ 02:35.8
1952/1961__ 02:36.9
1953/1962__ 02:36.8
1954/1963__ 02:36.8
1955/1964__ 02:35.7
1956/1965__ 02:35.7
1957/1966__ 02:35.2
1958/1967__ 02:34.4
1959/1968__ 02:34.1
1960/1969__ 02:34.2
1961/1970__ 02:34.3
1962/1971__ 02:33.5
1963/1972__ 02:33.6
1964/1973__ 02:33.3
1965/1974__ 02:33.3
1966/1975__ 02:32.6
1967/1976__ 02:32.1
1968/1977__ 02:31.8
1969/1978__ 02:31.5
1970/1979__ 02:31.6
1971/1980__ 02:31.5
1972/1981__ 02:31.8
1973/1982__ 02:31.7
1974/1983__ 02:31.8
1975/1984__ 02:31.3
1976/1985__ 02:31.3
1977/1986__ 02:31.3
1978/1987__ 02:31.7
1979/1988__ 02:32.4
1980/1989__ 02:32.3
1981/1990__ 02:31.8
1982/1991__ 02:31.2
1983/1992__ 02:31.1
1984/1993__ 02:31.4
1985/1994__ 02:31.5
1986/1995__ 02:31.8
1987/1996__ 02:31.7
1988/1997__ 02:31.9
1989/1998__ 02:31.0
1990/1999__ 02:30.7
1991/2000__ 02:30.7
1992/2001__ 02:30.5
1993/2002__ 02:30.4
1994/2003__ 02:30.4
1995/2004__ 02:30.8
1996/2005__ 02:30.5
1997/2006__ 02:30.7
1998/2007__ 02:30.2
1999/2008__ 02:30.1
2000/2009__ 02:30.0
2001/2010__ 02:29.7
2002/2011__ 02:30.4
1951/1960__ 02:35.8
1952/1961__ 02:36.9
1953/1962__ 02:36.8
1954/1963__ 02:36.8
1955/1964__ 02:35.7
1956/1965__ 02:35.7
1957/1966__ 02:35.2
1958/1967__ 02:34.4
1959/1968__ 02:34.1
1960/1969__ 02:34.2
1961/1970__ 02:34.3
1962/1971__ 02:33.5
1963/1972__ 02:33.6
1964/1973__ 02:33.3
1965/1974__ 02:33.3
1966/1975__ 02:32.6
1967/1976__ 02:32.1
1968/1977__ 02:31.8
1969/1978__ 02:31.5
1970/1979__ 02:31.6
1971/1980__ 02:31.5
1972/1981__ 02:31.8
1973/1982__ 02:31.7
1974/1983__ 02:31.8
1975/1984__ 02:31.3
1976/1985__ 02:31.3
1977/1986__ 02:31.3
1978/1987__ 02:31.7
1979/1988__ 02:32.4
1980/1989__ 02:32.3
1981/1990__ 02:31.8
1982/1991__ 02:31.2
1983/1992__ 02:31.1
1984/1993__ 02:31.4
1985/1994__ 02:31.5
1986/1995__ 02:31.8
1987/1996__ 02:31.7
1988/1997__ 02:31.9
1989/1998__ 02:31.0
1990/1999__ 02:30.7
1991/2000__ 02:30.7
1992/2001__ 02:30.5
1993/2002__ 02:30.4
1994/2003__ 02:30.4
1995/2004__ 02:30.8
1996/2005__ 02:30.5
1997/2006__ 02:30.7
1998/2007__ 02:30.2
1999/2008__ 02:30.1
2000/2009__ 02:30.0
2001/2010__ 02:29.7
2002/2011__ 02:30.4
So in the last 20 years they haven't improved at all?
Are you really trying to tell me King's Theatre is 8 seconds better than Nijinsky? Or even using your figures they are about the same horse. It doesn't work.
There are far too many factors to go by times. In the States maybe, but not here.
How much has course management improved over the years?
How long was the grass?
Have then introduced a drainage system?
At Ascot the course has been relaid?
Are we getting the same amount of rainfall?
Has watering had a positive or negative effect?
Anyone who thinks times are a true reflection on the ability of a racehorse on a British racecourse cannot substatiate their findings. There are way too many variables.
Are you really trying to tell me King's Theatre is 8 seconds better than Nijinsky? Or even using your figures they are about the same horse. It doesn't work.
There are far too many factors to go by times. In the States maybe, but not here.
How much has course management improved over the years?
How long was the grass?
Have then introduced a drainage system?
At Ascot the course has been relaid?
Are we getting the same amount of rainfall?
Has watering had a positive or negative effect?
Anyone who thinks times are a true reflection on the ability of a racehorse on a British racecourse cannot substatiate their findings. There are way too many variables.
how can you prove that the consistant gradual lowering of the 10 year average is not due to the fact that the top teir of horses themselves are getting better, it happens in every other sport.
Yet again you cherry pick using a slow time from the 70's and a fast time from the 90's, (why didn't you choose Generous and Nathaniel)?, did you see me do that.... NO, i used 10 year averages to even out ground conditions, rainfall, length of grass (laughable) and even watering can only slow down what would otherwise have been faster times
Yet again you cherry pick using a slow time from the 70's and a fast time from the 90's, (why didn't you choose Generous and Nathaniel)?, did you see me do that.... NO, i used 10 year averages to even out ground conditions, rainfall, length of grass (laughable) and even watering can only slow down what would otherwise have been faster times
My proof is just as valid as your proof Gren. And don't say the length of grass is laughable that was a point of discussion not too long ago. So because there are massive flaws and unknowns in the system it cannot be reled upon. And you never allowed for the fact that Acot have just laid new track.
How many times have you heard trainers complaining about the track being too firm and getting loads of non runners? Come on Grendel, you can't even trust a COC when he gives a going report.
How many times have you heard trainers complaining about the track being too firm and getting loads of non runners? Come on Grendel, you can't even trust a COC when he gives a going report.
the newly laid track only accounts for races since 2006 and the going has naff all to do with it in this instance
official going i meant, as you seem to infer that wrong going reports would affect this study
i'm off out for a run anyway, we'll continue this healthy debate later
I've just been reading about the Lockinge Stakes;
"The present system of race grading was introduced in 1971, and the Lockinge Stakes was classed at Group 2 level. It was relegated to Group 3 in 1983, and it regained Group 2 status in 1985. It became a Group 1 event in 1995, and at this point the minimum age was raised to four"
Just who is the genius responsible for downgrading this race after the three previous winners were Young Generation, Kris & Belmont Bay?
Probably someone who suspected they weren't up to competing in group two company.
I always thought in those days, before any re-assessment, the official ratings of the last FIVE winners dictated the pattern status.
I think the group ones were 'set in stone' but the group 2/3 & listed had opportunities to be promoted or relegated.
Anyone know whether this system is still in place or has the 'reshuffle' over the last decade ensured a ceiling for the number of group races?
"The present system of race grading was introduced in 1971, and the Lockinge Stakes was classed at Group 2 level. It was relegated to Group 3 in 1983, and it regained Group 2 status in 1985. It became a Group 1 event in 1995, and at this point the minimum age was raised to four"
Just who is the genius responsible for downgrading this race after the three previous winners were Young Generation, Kris & Belmont Bay?
Probably someone who suspected they weren't up to competing in group two company.
I always thought in those days, before any re-assessment, the official ratings of the last FIVE winners dictated the pattern status.
I think the group ones were 'set in stone' but the group 2/3 & listed had opportunities to be promoted or relegated.
Anyone know whether this system is still in place or has the 'reshuffle' over the last decade ensured a ceiling for the number of group races?
It's not just the King George brigust, pick any race with times going back more than 20 years and you get gradual reducing of average 10 yr race times .... the July Cup has consistently been lowering its times by about ½ a second per decade ... at a steady rate too so any sudden change is logically ruled out.
The USA times have remained virtually constant over time judging by a quick look at the Belmont stakes times, this would reflect the gradual closing of quality gap between USA horses and our horses by the fact that it was difficult to win Breeders Cup races in the 80's and early 90's but we more than hold our own nowadays.
The USA times have remained virtually constant over time judging by a quick look at the Belmont stakes times, this would reflect the gradual closing of quality gap between USA horses and our horses by the fact that it was difficult to win Breeders Cup races in the 80's and early 90's but we more than hold our own nowadays.
When Brigadier Gerard won the Lockinge first time out as a 4 year old he carried 9st 5lbs. The 3 year old filly Crespinall who finished last beaten 15+ lengths carried 7st 8lbs. She had just won the Group 3 Princess Elizabeth Stakes at Epsom and after her defeat in the Lockinge won the Group 2 Nassau Stakes at Goodwood.
When Sparkler won the Queen Anne at Royal Ascot it was a Group 3. Sparkler, a 4 year old, carried 9st 8lbs while the 2nd Calshot Light (rated 116) carried 8st 10lbs and was beaten three quarters of a length. Sparkler had suffred badly with the virus and was expected to need the run.
When Sparkler won the Queen Anne at Royal Ascot it was a Group 3. Sparkler, a 4 year old, carried 9st 8lbs while the 2nd Calshot Light (rated 116) carried 8st 10lbs and was beaten three quarters of a length. Sparkler had suffred badly with the virus and was expected to need the run.
I was looking at Group 1's .... Brigadier Gerard carried 9-7 in the KG of 1972, 4yo+'s carry 9-7 today so you can't put extra weight up as a reason
In fact our flat breed have improved so much that they have replaced the old style national hunt types over the jumps, Old Vic is siring Grand National winners nowadays. They aren't as sturdy nowadays though hence the increase in fatal falls.
Grendel are you enjoying yourself? The breed isn't improving in my opinion. The top weights in handicap have been reduced to help them. The reason more flat horses are running over the jumps is because there isn't the money there used to be in 'store' horses. Nowadays with syndicates etc. they want results today. Plus there are so many more horses in training because of the huge increase in races they can easily be moved over the jumps. To help these weaker flat breds the fences have been made easier.
If, and I say that with total reservation, if the times have improved you are making the huge assumption that horses 40 years ago would not have benefitted from those improvements.
Its a bit like saying Mohammed Ali would be useless because the gloves are slightly different.
Still had to wait 40 + years for a challenger to the Brigadier's title.
If, and I say that with total reservation, if the times have improved you are making the huge assumption that horses 40 years ago would not have benefitted from those improvements.
Its a bit like saying Mohammed Ali would be useless because the gloves are slightly different.
Still had to wait 40 + years for a challenger to the Brigadier's title.
Brigust - over a mile, I suspect your wait is over!
Will you review your stance if he bolts home in the Juddmonte or (quite reasonably) only be a convert with a 12f victory too?
Will you review your stance if he bolts home in the Juddmonte or (quite reasonably) only be a convert with a 12f victory too?
Can you elaborate on how top weights in handicaps being reduced affects how long it takes group 1 races to be run.
That depends upon the opponents. I'm reasonable, I haven't yet seen any, in fact there hasn't been any race, where he could be considered better than BG so I await with interest.
My point was that the breed wasn't considered able to carry the weight however much you think it has improved.
And they were running the Derby in 2m 34s in the '30s.
My point was that the breed wasn't considered able to carry the weight however much you think it has improved.
And they were running the Derby in 2m 34s in the '30s.
stick to electronic timing era brigust, not some pi$$ed up colonel with a stopwatch and binoculars, 1965 onwards is probably best for accuracy with starting stalls
"stick to electronic timing era brigust, not some pi$$ed up colonel with a stopwatch and binoculars"
derby:-
63-72 2m 38.3
73-82 2m 36.4
83-92 2m 37.2
93-02 2m 35.3
03-12 2m 34.6
63-72 2m 38.3
73-82 2m 36.4
83-92 2m 37.2
93-02 2m 35.3
03-12 2m 34.6
I never thought about that Gren. They probably started timing when the first horse jumped off to set the running. They could have been even faster ffs. Unless they alway jumped off in a straight line of course.
On a more sensible point, Grendel, I do find it absolutely staggering that you don't think the underfoot conditions have a huge role to play. Staggering.
was good to firm invented in 1985 or something?, if anything the quest for good ground nowadays will slow the races down ... we've had wet summers since 2007 in any case
Is that a 'no', Grendel? There was so much controversy about the variance in going reports they have tried to bring in the pertometer.
In today's RP the going yesterday at Newbury was Good to Soft (Good in places) 6.3. At Newton Abbot it was Soft (Heavy in places) 6.1. Crazy and I never follow it.
In today's RP the going yesterday at Newbury was Good to Soft (Good in places) 6.3. At Newton Abbot it was Soft (Heavy in places) 6.1. Crazy and I never follow it.
Brig - tomorrow's Racing Post has an item reliving Brigadier Gerard's career, though I suspect you're not gonna learn anything new
Do you have to have finished 2nd before a beating can be considered a thrashing?
Every horse bar the pacemaker in the QEll was rated above the 113 that Side Glance (3rd in Queen Anne) is, including Immortal Verse rated 121 and that one finished 3½L behind Excelebration that day and he in turn was 4L behind Frankel. I know which one I'd want to be on between Immortal Verse and Side Glance and the fact SG finished so close to Excelebration tells you that Excelebration committed racing suicide by trying to quicken with Frankel at the time he kicked on. He was able to do so initially but was then a broken horse at the end with the others catching up with him but none of them made any ground on Frankel.
Every horse bar the pacemaker in the QEll was rated above the 113 that Side Glance (3rd in Queen Anne) is, including Immortal Verse rated 121 and that one finished 3½L behind Excelebration that day and he in turn was 4L behind Frankel. I know which one I'd want to be on between Immortal Verse and Side Glance and the fact SG finished so close to Excelebration tells you that Excelebration committed racing suicide by trying to quicken with Frankel at the time he kicked on. He was able to do so initially but was then a broken horse at the end with the others catching up with him but none of them made any ground on Frankel.
a 'no' to what brigust? ... the 'going' reports are irrelevant, you can't honestly believe that the ground has gradually been getting faster at a constant rate at every track in the country relentlessly since 1965 despite clerks of the courses efforts to avoid too fast a ground that would jar a horse much more than they would have bothered to years ago.
I agree with the bit about Excelebration not showing his true form, Ima, but I do believe he is a 7 furlong horse. After all Caspar Netscher won the German 2000 Gns this year. We will have to wait and see on that but some of Frankel's races haven't been 'truly' run and that suits Excel. I think the only 2 solid pieces of form are the 2000Gns and the Queen Anne. I suggest if Excel had been running without Frankel the other trainers would have cottoned on pretty quickly. Horses look as if they have loads in hand but then find nothing. In the 2 races I selected he appeared to be flat out. He was also flat out in the St James Palace but it wasn't run to suit so I discount it.
Grendel I simply think it is part of the equation and a part that is not easy to calculate so it makes any other calculations pointless. But if it is your bag far be it from me to put you off.
Grendel I simply think it is part of the equation and a part that is not easy to calculate so it makes any other calculations pointless. But if it is your bag far be it from me to put you off.
Excelebration was officially raised to 126 (133 timeform equivalent) when winning the 7f Hungerford Stakes by 6 lengths from 112 rated Beacon Lodge and 7¾ l ahead of 109 rated Doncaster Rover and The Cheka back in 5th and 6th with 3rd and 4th placed Musir and Dubawi Gold deemed to have run below their 118 and 117 official marks, Excelebrations next run was a win in the Group 1 Prix Du Moulin over 1m in heavy ground, so between finishing third to Frankel in the SJP and meeting him again in the QE2 he raised his official 117 mark to 126 quite legitimately in Frankels absence.
I think I have Excelebration on 122 or 124, over a mile, so not far away. Timeform is way out imo and that has been a bone of contention with me.
Timeform is not directly comparable to BHA ratings, it's like comparing fahrenheit to celsius. Subtract 7 from Timeforms figures and you can vaguely compare but they still use different methods.
Did you buy a Racing Post Gren? Brilliant piece about BG today. A must read for any racing fan.
I don't buy the RP nowadays, I may do as a treat though ... I'd rather spend £47 a month on Raceform Interactive than £2 a day buying the Racing Post ... may get the online version as it has features without cards and form.
You will not regret it Gren, when you follow horses the memories fade just a bit and your views get pulled one way and another. And, although the formlines are still there and the memories from going to the the races are still strong,it sometimes gets a bit distorted. But then, on the very odd occasion, some puts down in words what you have believed all of these years. Heartwarming.
Post Your Reply
Please login to post a reply.
Wonder
Instance ID: 13539