Add Doctor Fremantle who is slower than a snail & running currently running around for peanuts in outback New Zealand.

Doesnt say much for European Group form.

tommy - glass harmonium didnt run his race in the cox plate tho surely.

completely missed the break after playing up in the stalls.

I know that's true, but playing god was right by him all carnival and finished right beside him again and glass harmonium is always slow out of the stalls, it was probably just like drawing wide. Not an excuse to finish so far back.

The only other horse coming in from the Playing God / Glass Harmonium form line ran even further back too.

I've no doubt with a proper race he'd have finished closer and only been beaten by 3-4L, but in what is considered a weak year in Aussie you'd expect that. He did run within 5L of Snow Fairy after all.

I should say i'm not actually trying to claim aussie racing is better. I just think there's a smaller gap between our racing and european racing than many think.

I believe a lot of people hear a story like glass harmonium's, that is they hear that he's been nearly winning some group races and even won some (although it was only 1 in a bad racing area) and then that's it. They need no more information to form their opinion. In their mind aussie racing is crap and glass harmonium is some kind of indisputable proof.

And although i'm gonna sound stupid saying this, maybe SYT wasn't quite what we said he was (in relation to previous aussie horses). Ol' Bart never actually said he was the best horse he trained, he would always just he was 1 of the best. But I guess that always got lost, on me too.

are horses trained mostly on race tracks in eurrope? maybe someone can let me know.


heres one european horse who excelled once he was trained on a race track, maybe, a possiblity why some improve while other more expected to improve, dont. taken from script of an interview of mark kavanagh

Out stepped a horse Mark Kavanagh described as "plain and hairy", not the aristocratic European equine he expected.

We just thought he would be a stayer who would do well on the harder tracks in Australia and it had a rating that was high enough for him to be competitive."

'I'll see if we can find a horse in England and we'll buy the bastard and we'll win the Wagga Cup'." ( bush cup )

Kavanagh viewed the form as "very, very poor". He finds it hard to reconcile how the horse with little form in Britain is starting to excite him more and more. "I kept thinking, 'I must have missed something here'," he said.

As soon as December Draw went to Flemington, Kavanagh noticed something else. The horse sweated up, became cantankerous and knew he was at the races. "As soon as he put his foot on the racetrack you could just tell, he loved it."

On May 7, the day December Draw had his first start in Australia, Towzell received a phone call from Kavanagh at Flemington.

"He said, 'Mate, this horse is a different horse, he's turned into a real racehorse when we got him to the track'. He said, 'Just keep your eye on him, I think he might be a good horse', and the bugger won."

educeee 24 Oct 11 01:03 
ima_mazed66, everytime you post my mug-o-meter goes nuts

stop it man, this thing runs on electricity and my bill just keeps going up and up

Oh you're so funny educeee, laugh? I nearly DID!

At the risk of sounded conceited I feel fairly confident in saying that I'd have no trouble losing and finding you again on most subjects and the give away on your part is that you often throw about the insults but never come back with a well written and informed alternative view to anything I have said.

Perhaps you will be as kind to point out any so called examples of where your "mug-o-meter" suggested anything I've said not to be the case......oh and by the way, wouldn't it really be written and pronounced mugometer, as like thermometer?

As to your point about December Draw megsy, doesn't that just go to prove the point that an average horse here can be a decent one over there and Glass Harmonium is another horse December Draw recently beat in a tight finish and would be a Gr3 winning horse here at best and its owner Lord Weinstock/Ballymacoll Stud have had horses like:

Troy - Derby winner
North Light - Derby winner
Conduit - King George, St Leger, Breeders' Cup Turf winner (twice)
Golan - 2000 Guineas and King George
Spectrum -  Champion Stakes, Irish 2000 Guineas and
Pilsudski - Brigadier Gerard, Eclipse, Champion Stakes, Breeders' Cup Turf & Japan Cup
Islington - Breeders' Cup Filly & Mare Turf
Helen Street - Irish Oaks
Sun Princess - Oaks and St Leger

and various other good horses like Gamut, Saddlers Hall and Hellenic so for them to let Glass Harmonium go they will have realised that it wasn't very good.

What will be interesting is to see that they sold Modun to Godolphin to run in the Melbourne Cup and that one wouldn't be without a chance.

Glass Harmonium ffs ran near the tail of the field in the cox plate wasnt up to the class, wtf are uou on about

Was that an after thought megsy? And do I really have to spell out your own post to you?

You posted up about December Draw not me. I was merely pointing out that Glass Harmonium was nothing special over here and a Gr3 winner at best but ran December Draw close over there beaten a short head in a Gr1, and also won a Gr2 and until the Cox Plate had only ever run in Group races there and never been out of the first 4, with form figures of 2nd, 3rd, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 4th and 2nd. You were the one who seemed to be suggesting via the new trainer that December Draw was a batter horse there than it was here and I was explaining why to you.

As usually though you do your favour cherry picking and focus on the one race where a previous poster in this thread has said:

thehappysnapper 24 Oct 11 10:42 
tommy - glass harmonium didnt run his race in the cox plate tho surely.

completely missed the break after playing up in the stalls.

I know dietitians advise getting your 5 a day from the fruit and veg groups but yours all seems to be from cherry-picking.

glass harmonium ran within 4 lengths of snow fairy in hong kong after being serverly Hammered during the race.

so dont tell me he hasnt shown potential....Sir Michael Stoute  wouldnt have taken him half way around the world if he didnt think he had a chance.

and if you think winning a group 1 against plodding dour stayers is beating the best, think again, shows you have no idea who are the better horses in Australia...2 times the weights had to raised because the better horses fell away due to injury in the caulfield cup

anyway, the field in the caulfield cup was full of european stayers. the race was won by a south australian mare.

december draw ran 25 lengths last, failing to run the distance after enjoying a leisure ride ridden quietly mid field.

so please, lets talk about your reasoning for the defeats, not gloat when things favour a horse and wins and you think you have bragging rights...so come on....explain the loses, both glass harmonium and december draw, you think you know everything.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JiM9VPXygN8

Short memory megsy?

Thread is there to comment other than Black Caviar,IMA is a big Fallon fan and still/always disagree.

At least he provides facts.


Give us some,both of you?

1.01 MEGSY you cant in worldwide exploits?

NAME GREAT AUS HORSES/DAMS/SIRES?..............



???????????????????????????????????????????????

You can't even see how you are contradicting your previous own two posts.

You've talked Glass Harmonium up where it has suited you and then in the very next post talked him down where it suited you......that's top class double standards even for you megsy.

What I actually said about Glass Harmonium racing here (and it's important to read carefully if you want to understand) is that he was a Gr3 WINNER at best, key word being winner. He did run in Gr1 and Gr2 races but not all horses that do that are good enough to win them.

As for when he ran behind Snow Fairy in a Gr1 in the Hong Long Cup, he ended up actually 4¼L behind her and finishing 12th of 13 as opposed to how close and consistently he has finished in your Group races, including a ¼L 3rd, a 3½L 4th and a SH 2nd in 3 of your Gr1s and a Gr2 win. He was beaten 4¼L 6th of 12 and 5L 6th of 10 (behind Twice Over) in the only times he tried Gr1 company here and was also 6th of 10 on his one Gr2 start here.

As for post race comments, they are all about interpretations and opinions and here is the one for the Racing Post regarding GH in the Cox Plate.

Fractious in stalls, missed break, always among backmarkers, ridden over 1 1/2f out, no impression.

Oh and this is a pre-race quote form his trainer Mike Moroney:

"He doesn't step that cleanly from the gates and then he has a lot of speed from there," Moroney said.

"But you can't afford to not step away and for that reason he's probably going to be third or fourth."

So clearly things didn't go to plan! Rearing in the stalls and then fly jumped out and the jockey got thrown around on the horse's back too. Add to that they were well drawn in 4 for a good start but that all went out of the window too once they missed the break. Going by the winning post the first time they are 3 from the back, on the inside and about 10 lengths off the pace and it would have been asking a lot to win from there.

As for Stoute taking him over there for the HK Cup, I might be wrong but I'm sure you have to be given an invitation but either way you don't turn your nose up at a race worth $18,000,000 HK. Plus I noticed that Craig Williams rode the horse that day and in his next race it had new owners and began racing in Australia so for all anyone knows a deal to sell the horse might already have been in place for the HK run.

Sorry posted that while you had another afterthought megsy but the easy way to highlight Glass Harmonium didn't run his race in the Cox Cup is that the horse had previously finished ahead of both Rekindled and Efficient (twice) yet both finished ahead of him in the Cox Plate, despite there being none or very little difference in the weights.

As for December Draw or any horse for that matter, if they in back to back races go from winning a Gr1 to finishing last in a Gr1 in its very next race then I'm inclined to think that second run wasn't it's true running, wouldn't you agree?

what do u think of BC's performances in relation to star witness ima?

dont u think she would have won all 3 races SW contended easily given how easily she dispatched him each time they met?

she beat him over 7L giving him 10lbs eased down!! on a line through him, nothing wouldve got near her!! even dream ahead wouldve been beated with minimum fuss, probably without her coming out of first gear!

he only beat SW over 4L receiving 6lbs in the july cup!!

i think shes the real deal personally and reckon she'd have laughed at dream ahead over 6!

night all!

ive seen her up close and BC is without doubt the best sprinter in the world. These other aussie sprinters are no mugs. Star Witness is worth his place in group 1 sprints but there are a few better than him that have still been stuffed by BC. Hay List on his day is a monster as well and he couldnt even get close

Shes so imposing and bigger than most of the colts and geldings she has been beating. And they have to give her weight as Dream Ahead will have to do next year at ascot if they meet.

thehappysnapper she gave the boys weight in australia's premier group 1 sprint the newmarket handicap and destroyed them. yes a handicap, was a weight carrying record win and she would have smashed the track record if she wasnt eased up and walked over the line 100m out and never being out of first gear through out.she had them all off the bit 450m out.imagine the time if she took off hard ridden at the same time, what sectionals, how many seconds would she have smashed track record on a track with over 150 years of history. and carrying a huge weight for a mare.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4_Qurl05YM

I think she's a very good horse ilikewavingatbuses and have never knocked her and neither have I knocked So You Think and that's ones a very good horse too but all I said was that he was no superstar and think I have been proved right on that. It's so hard to measure form between horses that have never met and you can only use other horses they have both met as some kind of benchmark and even then it's hardly scientific.

I've never really been convinced that Dream Ahead is a true sprinter but have always thought classy horses are able win over trips that aren't their best and still beat lesser class horses at those ones best trip anyway, it's just that they might not beat the very best class horses at those trips. Had Dream Ahead shown winning form at a mile then I doubt he would have dropped in trip but a combination of Frankel and a mile maybe being too far for him meant he dropped back.

Interesting though that he never dropped back to 5f in sprints and it was always 6f and then moved up to 7f and won, which seems to support my theory above. The 6f Gr1 races Dream Ahead won seem a little devalued by a handicapper like Hoof It stepping up to Gr1 and getting so close to Dream Ahead after previously having been only 6th in his previous Gr1 attempt.

In my opinion anyway, any sprint Dream Ahead won this season, Frankel also would have won if he had run in the same races and there's form of sorts between all of Frankel, Dream Ahead, Canford Cliffs and Goldikova and arguably any of those others would have won those sprints too, despite not being specialist sprinters.

I think it's fairly safe to say that Black Caviar would more than likely have won them too if we use Hoof It as a benchmark. Hoof It might go on to improve with age and prove himself to be a top class sprinter but I don't think he's done so yet.

moone valley is renown as a swoopers track.. how the fcuk would you know it isnt, you know jack shyt about horse racing australia, only what you want to read.