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mginvest. the on course market functions in a different manner. where the business is good, as at aintree, many of the layers there (not me I'm glad to say) convey most business they accept onto exchanges to create margin, that's to say they are not true bookmakers who would price up a board to figures, invariably accepting risk. Unfortunately, customers suffer at tracks like southwell. there's simply insufficient business to support this conveyer belt system, so this new breed of bookie (arbers in effect, with often poor EW terms) simply don't attend. Customers have few to bet to and a poor service. It's a spiral going nowhere.
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Calypso - Can't understand the JP / Jonjo "love-in" after the race. Why are we concerned as to how much he won betting on the race (if anything). He just scooped over half a million for winning the race in prizemoney to add to his countless millions derived from his financial trading. As an ordinary member of the basically skint public at large i'm not into all the well wishing heaped upon the rich and fortunate after such events. AP is different because he risks life and limb for his job and the horses deserves most credit for doing the same. The connections are just very fortunate people living out their lives on mostly easy street (financially speaking of course). GL to em but i'm not gonna give them much more than that.
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I always end up putting GN bets on for family & friends & I never use Betfair. On Sat I put all bets on with Victor.
My Mum backed Hello Bud e/w & was made up by being paid out on the 5th and at 40/1. My Dad backed Eric's Charm - faller so got his stake back - again a happy punter. And to top it off my missus backed KJC and Victor very kindly gave her money back. All these would have been losing bets on here. |
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Sportsadvisor, betfair is the bookmaker's dumping ground for unprofitable customers. How would it help either the levy or the tax if bookmakers held on to such punters and decreased their gross profits?
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Another trend I'm noticing among my friends who only bets a couple of times a year is that they all bet online. So they usually get the best terms without realising it.
They are comfortable buying everyday items online so placing a £10 bet online doesn't phase them. If I give them any betting advice it's "stay out of the shops" ! |
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Exchanges would have had a devestating effect on levy and tax if they were properly run. They're not though.
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Sportsad- I agree it's a downward trend for oncourse bookies especially at the smaller midweek meetings. I'm sure plenty was made in the big race with on course layers hedging on the better prices on here. What's the answer though? The times they are a changing and it looks ever likely that bookies will largely disappear on course except for the big money meetings. The big firms have only themselves to blame though. It was their increasing reluctance to lay a decent bet that led so many to converge here. I wouldn't worry about them though, the machines will save their bacon in their high street chains.
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mg ,
i agree fully with what you say there except for the main point. course books offered dont push it at 20/1 until after 3.00 pm then 16/1 until just before the off. how could we gain by backing back on here at 18/1 [ less commission ] |
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re beansandgravy the whole point is your gfs mother should have got 130 or 150, her along with 1000,s of others got badly shortchanged. the small books as explained on another thread seemed to have quite a fair book until the "big bookmakers" stepped into the ring forcing smaller layers to shorten. this would be acceptable if there was genuine money for some runners but the fact is over 30 shortened. i view it as very cynical money grabbing operation by the big bookmakers. i am sure if you said this to your gf mother her reply would be "they can,t do that"
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lapsy, agree in part
1) As I stated, somewhere in the media, joe public has to be educated to take the price when they put the bet on. I saw nothing of this in the newspapers' pullouts or in the media. They will list horse, jockey, chase starts, colours, every fence etc but not do a simple checklist for a punter going into a shop. Racing For Change in my opinion should take out a simple ad in every paper on National day with a 3 step checklist for the punter. Number 1, take the price on the selection. Theyre there to educate punters arent they? That way, gf's mum would have got 20-1, not 10-1 SP for starters.. 2) The business of backing on course by the firms has happened longer than i can remember and firms cannot be blamed for hedging. Somewhere in the mix the lengthening of horses has been missed and this has happened on course. I cannot accept really Wilshere's comments "it was carnage in the ring". 3) If one lesson has to be learnt from this, i suppose its an audit trail of how the SP has come about. Can this be accessed by Joe Public? or is it a closed shop that can only be accessed by writing to the SP Commission. Why can it not be accessed via the racing results section in the Post and Sporting Life? Can somehow the following be listed at off time? Bookmaker Board price and from these, we can see how the SP was calculated?? If so, we could see 10-1 was the general price on course. If its all computerised, it should be fairly simple in this day and age, no?? |
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Sportsadvisor 12 Apr 11:08
one further point - if i may. as an off course bookie, what I pay tax and levy on is laying horses. there's no debate going on between firms such as mine and customs and excise, or the levy boardas to what layhing means. I cannot argue that laying Kuato star on the phone is the same as backing the others to beat the same, as betfair argues it's customers so to be doing-and therefore they cannot be seen as layers, although effectively they are performing the same function. Betfair appear to have - for the moment, won the debate on tax and levy. I doubt, however,if the European parliament would be so sympathetic to the government on taxation- were it to be challenged exellent post and no doubt will be swept under the carpet by this lot on here. |
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it's not difficult to understand betfair is an agent
if you go to a dating agency and get your leg over the agency isn't doing the laying comprendez ? |
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well fk me
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exellent post and no doubt will be swept under the carpet by this lot on here.
It's not an excellent post so why do we need to sweep it under the carpet? What makes you think the EU will take your part because you are unable to compete with betfair the bookmaker's margins? If someone brings out a car that's as good as any car on the market but costs only half as much would you expect the European parliament to make that person pay twice the percentage of tax on their profit per car just because the other car manufacturers are beeling? You gentlemen are bookmakers, NOT layers. Bookmakers are taxed. What do you tell the EP when they ask "well why aren't you just working solely through the exchanges"? |
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Adge - If you were going 16s just before the off what was everyone else offering to return it at 10s?
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Excellent post F ing Idj.... If bookmakers will not compete with Betfair,why should they be protected.Like any business that offers an inferior product,they will die.What they did on sat,ripping off once a year punters.Is another example of their greedy and destructive business strategy.Instead of seeing the potential of trying to get these millions of once a year punters to come back by giving them a fair return..They did what they always do with their customers.Just think about the short term profit to be made and drive them to here or give them no reason to come back. Have no argument with the oncourse bookies posting on here they are for the most part honest and trying to make a living in a difficult market.Cant blame them for taking the ofcourse money to shorten up the SP"s.
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If racing (in the sense of a beneficiary of the levy and gpt) wants there to be competition w/ bf for the sake of the customer, it shd get behind a lower takeout toat.
It will always be in the interests of private layers to charge the customer as much as possible for as little as poss. reward. There is a case for racing want to drive volume at the expense of margins, esp. w/ the popularity of the sport in decline and its share threatened by superior wagering vehicles such as football, American sports etc etc. But it surely cannot look to the big offcourse layers to help it w/ this. |
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sportsadvisor, I don't see that there are layers on bf at all.
Bf is a bookie and clients bet w/ it. Where it gets the money from is no one's business, so long as winners are paid out of ringfenced funds. A system of levy collectors in bed w/ layers to the detriment of punters is not going to do racing's popularity w/ punters any good long-term. |
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Sportsadvisor 12 Apr 11:08
one further point - if i may. as an off course bookie, what I pay tax and levy on is laying horses. there's no debate going on between firms such as mine and customs and excise, or the levy boardas to what layhing means. I cannot argue that laying Kuato star on the phone is the same as backing the others to beat the same, as betfair argues it's customers so to be doing-and therefore they cannot be seen as layers, although effectively they are performing the same function. Betfair appear to have - for the moment, won the debate on tax and levy. I doubt, however,if the European parliament would be so sympathetic to the government on taxation- were it to be challenged exellent post and no doubt will be swept under the carpet by this lot on here. thanks! i would add, many of racing's officials/quangos/committees made or make decisions without properly considering the consequences. a few weeks ago, in an infamous full page ad, betfair claimed to being accepted worldwide, when in fact its only the UK and tasmania who have cracked. other countries adopted wait and see tactics, and must be laughing their socks off at the state of our finances and bookmaking. a bonanza for the punters serves no purpose |
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feck. the question is too simple apparently for you to understand, or perhaps the real answer is unpalatable. why should a layer on an exchange be treated in a different manner(tax and levy wise) to a bookmaker, also laying the same event?
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askari - betfair is a bookie? that has to be a joke. they are the biggest middle men in racing! isn't it the job of the horse to wear blinkers??
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mginvest 12 Apr 11:15
Can't understand the JP / Jonjo "love-in" after the race. Why are we concerned as to how much he won betting on the race (if anything). He just scooped over half a million for winning the race in prizemoney to add to his countless millions derived from his financial trading. As an ordinary member of the basically skint public at large i'm not into all the well wishing heaped upon the rich and fortunate after such events. AP is different because he risks life and limb for his job and the horses deserves most credit for doing the same. The connections are just very fortunate people living out their lives on mostly easy street (financially speaking of course). GL to em but i'm not gonna give them much more than that. To be fair I don't think either were exactly born with a 'silver spoon'. Jonjo did his fair share of risking 'life and limb' before retiring to easy street |
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feck. the question is too simple apparently for you to understand, or perhaps the real answer is unpalatable
I understand the question perfectly well sportsadvisior. I think it's you that finds the answer unpalatable. This layer' cr@p is nothing more than semantics thought up by people devoid of a real argument. Someone backing a horse is laying the other party a back of the horse to lose. why should a layer on an exchange be treated in a different manner(tax and levy wise) to a bookmaker, also laying the same event? Any bookmaker can give up the game and operate through betfair. Ask yourself why you don't and you've answered your own question. |