I thought it was calculated at 5% . I certainly assumed that when calculating in a laying contest at BF SP. I assume I had some foundation for that, but can`t remember.

Yes you are right stow. Where they DO take 5% into account is the BF SP advantage/disadvantage over industry SP. Look at Najaf in that race where they were at a disadvantage, but 4.8 against 4.9 ain`t 7%.

It is an important question. I'm certainly not saying they did do that but it would raise many other questions if it were the case. The GN SP market needed some massive lays to ensure there were no repeat of previous years debacles and, if it were the market that provided those sums, then fair enough.

What's the issue with Betfair doing it bin it?

Sounds like they act as a bookmaker on the Multiples anyway?

shock horror pythia appears to be busy again`

A valid thread, but somewhat hypocritical.

Agree GJ - see my other post...

I withdrew ALL my money from my BF account about a year ago now because I'm interested in backing high-priced e/w bets only but the prices on here are so pathetically small compared to the major bookies that I gave up using my BF account and only use the website now to access this forum.

You have heard of "Knock out" origionated at BAGS meetings. well this is a reversal "A Knock in" nice stroke, If people have a problem, contact trading standards

Totally agree with your comment last night, salmon - most once-a-year punters are happy enough to find a winner, but to notice 20/1 in the morning and see 10/1 SP in the most competitive and difficult NH handicap of the year cannot help but leave a sour taste, as I heard several times myself. And from women with pushchairs and others that clearly are not regular punters "trying it on".

I also take your point about meeters and greeters, saddo, which is good, but if you don't know what you don't know you can't ask the right questions about taking a price vs taking SP. From my experience many people are more likely to have been racing rather than placed a bet in a betting shop, and won't know that the shops' default is SP unless you ask otherwise.

"betfairs abuse of its monopoly position"

lol - I 't think you need to look up the definition of monopoly.

?

Regarding Comply or Die case as far as I know, the Betfair SP (in it's first Grand National then) was a victim of it's own success.

If you are a new customer to racing on Betfair you automatically get the racecard view (which you can all click on before the 'radio' icon) which only shows BSP prices. Lots of new customers signed up, as happens at every for the national and most punted on the front four of the market.

As the Betfair SP was so new at the time the layers were obviously cautious as they saw the projected SP dip will below the bookies show and didn't lay all the money that was coming on shortly before the off.

After the race Betfair reconciled any backers of the winner or placed e/w horses to a fair price at Betfair's expense not the layers. Similar to a bookie paying out early, or as some did yesterday refunded on Kings John Castle when they don't have to but did what they deemed the right thing.

I hope this clears it up for people. And Yes I work for Betfair and Yes I'm off to bed because I've to go to work tomorrow ;) I might go in 30 mins late for doing overtime though. I'll have to check my contract.

The bookies love a dig at Betfair.

Re. all the nonsense about the place odds being poor on here.I fancied an outsider in the 3m. hurdle at Aintree and was able to bet in the place market for 3 places when there were ONLY 7 runners.If that is not value then what is?Nobody is saying bookmakers should do that,but it proves that the place only book can sometimes be exceptional.

Any word how much mc manus apparently won ?

usual exchange afficianado rant. although in my experience the sp returns are somewhat strangely computed, but i doubt the layers on here pay an average 80,000 up front to purchase a pitch at aintree, not do they shoulder 1300 a day to bet, regular off track books pay substantially increased tax and levy rates than a casual layer on here. these facts cannot be disputed. although such factors totally ignored by exchange fans. of course it's understandable because any increase in taxes or expenses for layers on here would of course be resisted. it's not only horses that wear blinkers

Im not really sure where this debate is going. Ask the average person in the street what a 155% overround is, they wont have a clue.

Joe Public will bask in the highlight of backing a winner in the National at 10-1 and bragging to friends and relatives, while others will commisorate in backing Hello Bud each way and it finished 5th or the horse that would not start.

Shops are there purely for people to pop in and have a bet. They are uneducated in the form of betting or gambling and its a once a year social event. Sadly they will get taken advantage of. Their needs are like a shop or supermarket, get served quickly, efficiently and make the process as simple as possible.

There was a lot of very good value I thought knocking about with the firms on Saturday on the net and phones and what to me is evident is that Racing For Change, if serious, need to be educating the public better on the lead-up to Grand National day via the media.

1) When backing the selection, always ask to take the price.
2) Look for the best each way terms, 5 places rather than 4.
3) Look to use the internet rather than visit the shop. If visiting the shop, ask to take the price. Explain best odds guaranteed online..

I didnt see this in any pullout or the Racing Post on Saturday..

Girlfriends' mother had a tenner on Dont Push It at 10-1, made up with £110. Id rather not tell her, I could have backed it for her at 22-1 2 hours earlier online.

Never mind the 155% overround.

It's crystal clear that 12 and 14/1 was freely available about the winner at the off.

This is where the real investigation should lie.

My money's on the very revealing names of the short list of bookmakers that the SP reporters now have to take prices off. At the major meetings, have a wild guess who some of them are?

one further point - if i may. as an off course bookie, what I pay tax and levy on is laying horses. there's no debate going on between firms such as mine and customs and excise, or the levy boardas to what layhing means. I cannot argue that laying Kuato star on the phone is the same as backing the others to beat the same, as betfair argues it's customers so to be doing-and therefore they cannot be seen as layers, although effectively they are performing the same function. Betfair appear to have - for the moment, won the debate on tax and levy. I doubt, however,if the European parliament would be so sympathetic to the government on taxation- were it to be challenged