Joni, to me it's all about the level of competition and the pressure applied. Against that lot she would have handled the dip fine.  Against Cirrus she might not have ..

vieux escargot  Faites attention pas  poulet de printemps ,être averti .

Not on this forum Sint. Brig did write this just before the POW - "This is a difficult race for me. I think Al Kazeem, The Fugue and Magician are about the same horse and they would all be about 10 lengths short of winning an Arc. On the other hand I wasn't enamoured with the Arc but mainly because I thought it wasn't truly run. So 10f here negates that point.
So it has to be Treve."

So he obviously didn't think the Ganay was a mistake at that point, 2 months after the race. Of course with the benefit of HINDSIGHT.......!!!!!!!

And surely anyone with half a brain would say that CDA is hardly an inferior horse. Especially on soft ground. He has consistently posted ratings in the high 120's and 130's. Treve has managed this twice and once was last week. You can't have it both ways Brig. On the one hand you say that she should never have taken on CDA because she risked her unbeaten record against a very good horse and on the other you say she should have beaten inferior animals.

You say it was a mistake to run in that race and talk of the "Error of the Ganay" suggesting that she could have stayed unbeaten if she hadn't run there. This must mean you thought the Ganay took lots out of her right? In which case why did you back her for the POW? As you say you can only judge a race with hindsight. You had the hindsight of the Ganay when you backed her for POW. There she was beaten by a multiple Group 1 winner in The Fugue who I would say is certainly not an inferior animal given the right conditions ie 10f and fast ground.

Obviously she should have beaten that lot in the Vermeilles. She clearly wasn't quite fit. All roads led to the Arc at that point.

The simple fact is that Treve was brilliant on her day but that she needed the right conditions to be seen at her best. So this season we learnt that she wasn't quite good enough to beat a race-fit CDA on soft ground, that she wasn't quite good enough to beat a lover of fast ground in The Fugue and that she wasn't quite fit enough to beat three plodders in the Vermeilles. All this we learnt with HINDSIGHT.

Your point that she is the best horse in Europe or even the world and should never have been beaten is simply not backed up by the ratings. Even in the Arc she only beat Flintshire by exactly the same distance as CDA did in the Coronation and he was carrying an injury!

What really matters is that her superb 3 time Arc winning trainer was able to produce her when it counted and for that, in my opinion, she should be lauded not criticised.

Glad it's your final point at least (of course it is). She got beat in the Ganay but it could just have easily been any other race. The simple fact is she was not so far ahead of all the others that she was unbeatable. That is not just my opinion, that is the opinion of the International Rankings who have her joint 6th! Blimey until the Arc she hadn't even taken on any of the top 3 year olds! She would have been beaten wherever she went so long as she was taking on decent horses like CDA. As I said you probably COULD have kept her unbeaten but only if she a) didn't race or b) raced only in lesser grades.

I certainly don't say her unbeaten record is worthless but you saying it was important to HH is so blindingly obvious it is not worth talking about. Of course all owners want their horses to stay unbeaten. Racing isn't like that though unless you are Frankel.

Hi S. Very eloquently put but rubbish. In my opinion of course because you may believe Treve would not be

a) thought more of,
b) be much more valuable,
c) her offspring would not be much more valuable,
d) her standing in the world of racing would have been much greater
e) it would have been a huge feather in her trainers cap

among many other points for retaining her unbeaten record. If you really do think those points don't matter then I am afraid I am wasting my time. But as far as being in a minority of 1% well I will ignore that.
If you do think they are/were important then I ask you were the decisions to run in the races she did run in the correct decisions. If you think they were there is nothing more to say. If you think they were errors of judgement then who made those judgement errors.
You know I wouldn't mind betting that at some time in the not too distant future connections of Treve will say thst running her in the Ganay was a mistake. I would bet on that. One percent or not.

Treve was the 6th to win back to back Arcs: Ksar(1921,22); Corrida(36,37); Tantieme (50,51); Ribot (55,56); Alleged (77,78); Treve (13,14).  Motrico won 1930,1932.

Sorry, Sandown.  I wasn't trying to be a smart arse.  I had posted that on boards.ie and it was just a cut and paste.

Nice to hear you are going to the Melbourne Cup.  I was there in 2003, and believe it or not I didn't see one horse on the day.  The crowds were so big I couldn't get anywhere near the track.  The racing on the following few days is much more relaxed.  It is easy to get there as there is a railway station beside the track.
Of course I had to visit the Crown casino for some poker.  And 50 yards away just across the river is the sea aquarium.
Play some golf, visit a winery, and whatever.

You lucky bastard.

kingcem

I agree, I'm a lucky bastard It's one of the things on my bucket list, so very much looking forward to it.

Fortunately, we have friends down there so tickets all booked, seats in the stands obtained, and hopefully we will get to see the horses as well as the race. Over 100,000 in attendance it seems.All I need now is to find the winner so that I can recover my ARC money and contribute something towards the cost of this trip which is taking in NZ, Hawaii & Dallas (where my daughter lives) plus a few other stops on the way.That's the holiday budget blown for a few years!

We will just have to agree to disagree then S. After all I know first hand what losing an unbeaten record means and the inquests that were involved which ended in the owner/breeder never speaking to the trainer again and the trainer insulting the owners, after they had passed on, at every opportunity. Of course horses get beaten but when that defeat is avoidable then we are talking about something else. Or at least I am. Sea Bird 11 was beaten and so was Sea the Stars but they hadn't an unbeaten record to defend. So no matter how many examples you can put forward where a horse has been beaten unnecessarily I bet if you asked the owners if it mattered the would say 'you are damned right it matters'.

Anyway a friend and I are planning the Melbourne Cup next year but, as with the Breeders Cup this year sometimes circumstances get beyond control. I hope you have a great time and look forward to any pointers you can give when your eturn.

What's the weather like at this time of year? Do they train on the track? Can you watch them going through their paces? Sometimes the early morning activities can be more relaxing than the day at the races.

Sorry Brig - had no idea you were the legendary Laurie! No wonder it is a subject you feel strongly about. Great talking with you even if we did largely disagree!

Dubai,Hong Kong,Sydney,Canberra,Melbourne,New Zealand,Hawaii,Dallas.Our daughter and grandchildren live there. 9 weeks. Can't wait.Sightseeing obligatory.

Joni. I have been saying for over a year now, anyone who debates with Brigust must do so knowing he doesn't have a clue what he is talking about. His posts are full of contradictions and hypocrisy. His opinion will change in accordance with his mistakes. Then thrown in the fact he aftertimes too and it doesn't take too much to work out he loses regularly. I wish I could put that in a kinder way but it seems pretty obvious to me. He constantly has to be a smart a5se and very little of what he says makes sense. He has no understanding of times, ratings, preparations, breeding/pr, trainer patterns..the list goes on but talks to everyone down his nose and like he's the messiah. People are just wasting their time.

Great one digging out that post though. There are loads like that and proves exactly my point. Pocket talk, smart a5se, hindsight. He's never wrong (accept all the time in reality).

Good morning Felt. I'm a punter so making the wrong decisions is part and parcel of the business. Sympathy is wasted on punters. About the decision retire Australia I am disappointed for racing. Again we have a horse whose career is based almost solely on hype. The Coolmore rep said Australia was a great 2 year old. Just bollox. And whatever did he beat? It, s still early days I suppose so Free Eagle, The Grey Gatsby and Kingston Hill could make him look better. We will have to wait and see.
As far as bets are concerned I lost on the 2000 Gns but got it back in the Derby plus a bit. I backed him for the Juddmonte and only lost a little on the Irish Champion. I lost on the Arc but the winner saved me. I backed him for the QE11 covering my bet with Night of Thunder. I never backed him for the Champion but backed ROTW instead. All in all he made me money and took me on an extraordinary journey. Do I think he was campaigned correctly? No. Do I think AOB has been justified in his comments? No. I have thought Coolmore is bad for racing for a long time now and nothing tbey have done this year has made me change my mind. Only this time to be fait I went on the journey with them and I am even more convinced now.

Would agree with that brigust.

Lucky bugger.

I mean if your talking about backing horses in a said race then you mention them both instead of waiting until one has retired and the price on the other shortens. The mindset of punter who doesn't know his a5se from his elbow i'm afraid.

going back to the Arc, I found the post race interview on ATR with the 90 year old Alec Head very entertaining - especially the bit where he confessed to calling the 96 year old Peter O'Sullevan in the week preceding the race and advising him that the mare was back to her best and that Peter should bet accordingly.

don't really begrudge inside information passed between nonagenerians!