I asked you quite openly on this thread whether or not you thought the Queen Anne Stakes was the best performance by any racehorse since ratings began. You refused to agree that it was because you couldn't. Why? Because it isn't.

It is precisely this kind of fabricated bollocks that makes you incapable of sensible debate. Since ratings began? For one, I wasn't even born when ratings began, and for another I couldn't give a sh1te what other people rate the best. I said for me it was the best.

Stevie in 1984 Luca won the Extel with Free Guest who then won the Virginia Stakes and the Sun Chariot. As a 4 year old she was beaten in the Queen Anne by Rousillon, won the Nassau by 7 lengths and the Sun Chariot for a 2nd time, then won the Princess Royal Stakes at Ascot before being beaten 15 lengths into 2nd by Shardari in the St Simon Stakes.

And your point is?

Just to clear up a few points.

Your first derogatory remark of yesterday was about the Champion Stakes. In the decade surrounding Brigadier Gerard who won it twice it was won by Reform, Sir Ivor, Rose Bowl and Flying Water with beaten horses in other Champion Stakes including Nijinsky and Allez Fance.  That is not Group 2 form as you suggest scurrilously.

In fact Reform who is rated by Timeform just under Farhh, Excelebration and CDA on 132 won 11 of his 14 starts. He wasn’t entered in the classics but won the St James Palace Stakes, Sussex Stakes, QE11 and Champion Stakes beating Royal Palace who had won the 2000 Gns and the Derby. Personally I rate that higher than any form shown by Farhh, Excelebration or CDA.
Sir Ivor who is rated the same as CDA won the 2000 Gns, Derby, Washington Int, Champion Stakes and was 2nd in the Irish Derby and the Arc.
‘Sir Ivor appeared at Newmarket, where he win the Champion Stakes easily by two and a half lengths from a field which included Taj Dewan. On his final start, Sir Ivor was sent to the United States for the Washington, D.C. International at Laurel Park, Maryland . Piggott held the colt up before producing a "furious stretch drive" to lead in the last twenty yards and beat Czar Alexander, with the American Champion Male Turf Horse, Fort Marcy, in third.’
Because Lester left his challenge so late when asked in the press conference after the race when he thought he would win he famously said ‘about 2 weeks ago’.

In the decade surrounding Dancing Brave the Champion Stakes was won by Time Charter, Pebbles, Triptych (2) and Indian Skimmer. These were all Group 1 horses.

I will not knock the horses who have won in the last decade but they do include Storming Home, David Junior, Pride and Literato.

So lets stop trying to score points by insulting racing’s history!!

Your next derogatory remark came in your next post when it started with ’you think Sea the Stars and Frankel are over rated!’

Can we clear this one up once and for all?

When Sea the Stars was racing and his followers were claiming he was the best there has ever been I did say they were over rating him.  I never said the handicapper or Timeform were over rating him just his fans. As it was the ratings show they were, in fact, over rating him. In fact he is hardly mentioned now and that was only 3 years ago.
Of Frankel I have always said he was a great horse and I have only questioned Timeform’s rating of him because their own figures do not add up. Can you get that into your head? I have repeated and repeated that any number of times.
It is Timeform’s own figures I am saying are over rated because their own figures do not add up. Got it now?


I have said some of the horses he has beaten, notably Farhh, CDA and Excelebration, have appeared to be over rated and suspect it helps them with their own ratings to prop Frankel’s rating up. And I have constantly and repeatedly included my points where I believe they are over rated.

Another of your biggest failings Figgis is that you are totally unable to understand that things were different in the 60’s, 70’s and 80’s. The Pattern only started in the 70’s and there were a number of good handicaps classier horses ran in, like the Extel and PTS Laurels etc. They seem to have been replaced with conditions and Group races, I think, to the detriment of racing and the ability to rate horses properly. It was nothing for classic placed horses, even classic winners to run in handicaps, at least it tested their ratings. Today you can get a horse like Cityscape finish 14th of 15 in his classic, run 23 times and not see a handicap. How can his mark be tested? Arkle and even Desert Orchid plied their trade in handicaps. At least we know their ratings are sound.

But when you talk about horses being beaten in handicaps 25 years ago and then have the temerity so say when you compare it with today as ’like for like’ and go on to accuse me of not doing the same as being wrong, you are completely and utterly misguided.

He certainly as Dun. But Lester had the last laugh. Beat their best horse as well.

When Fort Marcy won in 1970 I rang up Lads to back it at 5/2 if I remember. It was run late at night and I think it was on the radio. The chap told me they had closed my account but he accepted that bet. I don't know why. If I remember I had won quite a few quid backing a top class hurdler of Fred Rimell's at Newbury a few days before. Must have been a mid week Newbury meeting. I still have the bank deposit books. Kept them for posterity.

Figgis, that question about 'would you changing your ratings?' was the jehovah's witness knocking on the door and you still answered and you've gone and listened to all the same stuff all over again

oh thanks for the post on Free Guest btw brigust. I had forgotten  that one. I see in 1985 a horse called Fish n chips won it. Was there not also a horse in the 60s called fish n chips?

Now I have some building plans to finish and a house to build so I will be absent from the forum from now on. Au revoir.

Brigust does come up with some very good info about Arkle and horses of the 60s which I enjoy reading as was before my time. Anyway GL with the house brigust. I'm sure if you and Figgis were discussing this in the pub over a pint it would discussed in a very different manner.

Stevie, I have done in some recent seasons but not for the last couple. I find it a very different game than the turf, particularly the polytrack courses. My bigger bets on the turf are on the better horses in the better races, I just don't have the same confidence to stake as large on the low grade all weather stuff. I know on turf that connections' intentions obviously play a part, especially in lower grade races, but form is still the biggest factor, whereas I find that sometimes on the all weather form can be secondary. Also, some days at Lingfield the whole card can be run in a farcical manner, with nobody wanting to make a decent pace. I particularly dislike Kempton, with its generally weak races and weak markets.

I know a profit can still be made and I'm sure the all weather season is perfect for some people's methods, it just doesn't suit mine that's all. I also look forward to the break after what is now a busy turf season with all the extra racing.

Do you prefer the all weather, Stevie?

Yeah, I remember one afternoon about 3 years ago and it was just "gamble landed", "gamble landed", one after the other, followed by the inevitable bottom licking from the tv pundits. I'm sure a lot of punters do well at spotting such plots and it's all part of the game, it's just that I've always preferred to concentrate on form.