Good morning Figgis. I had to go to bed when the cricket finished.

I fail to see how you can compare Moonlight Cloud running twice in a week with ROTW. She was having her second run of the season and was obviously laid out for exactly that in the same way ROTW was laid out for the Arc prep and then the Arc. She was running over a shorter distance (approx half) on her own doorstep whereas he had to travel to France twice, go though the preps etc then run to his best in the Arc. Even NH horses run within a short period of time over much further it depends upon how hard a race they have and, with Moonlight Cloud she din't have a very hard race first time up or, for that matter, second time up.

Had she been running in the 70's she wouldn't have won a Group 1 race until her 14th run and would only have won 3 Gr 1's in 20 starts in all.
In her 2 wins in the Maurice de Gueest she beat sprinters, Whizz Kid and Lethal Force, over 7f which suited her admirably and didn't suit them.

So your point about ROTW running in a prep race prior to the Arc, running in the Arc than the Champion Stakes coupled with the travelling and the fact that he had been trained to win the Derby then the Arc bears absolutely no comparison to Moonlight Cloud's two runs in a week and a total of five runs in the season. The pattern both over fat and NH means that trainers can now be very selective if they limit their runs and target races other trainers are unlikely to target. Henry Cecil was a master of that.

Good morning Steve. Yes I backed The Fugue for a place, I hate backing girls to beat the boys. I backed the Japanese sprinter and had small bets on Moonlight Cloud and CDA because I thought they were the best horses in the race.

My point about Moonlight Cloud is that with so many Group 1's they can be targeted more easily and if you lay your horse out for that race, as Head did, the likelihood others have as well decreases greatly. In the Maurice de Gueest and the J le Marois she was virtually the only horse trained for those races. Similarly in the Champion Stakes only Farhh and CDA were trained specifically for those races. The pattern is so diluted. And you have a case where
Had they been running in the 70's Farhh would have on a single Gr 1 from 10 starts, MC would have won 3 Gr 1's from 20 starts, CDA would have won 2 Gr 1's from 53 starts and So You Think would have won a single Gr 1 from 11 starts. And Olympic Glory would have won a single Group 1 from 10 starts.

When you package the above statistics together and find that all of the above cannot win anywhere else you have to ask if they are weakening the system. Moonlight Cloud, Olympic Glory, CDA and So You Think all went abroad and we well beaten. Outside our closeted world they couldn't achieve. Coincidence?

As there is far more racing now than in the past it follows that there will be more races at the top than the past, or would you prefer even more dross at the bottom, brig? Of course there are bound to be some top races that aren't as competitive as they could be, but I see no difference whatsoever in the ability required to win an Eclipse, King George, Jacques Le Marois than was needed when I started following racing in the 80s. As far as the Champion Stakes goes the level has gone up compared to some of the glorified Gp2 levels of form that won it in the past.

Brig, as you think both Sea The Stars and Frankel were overrated, with Brigadier Gerard being before my time then Dancing Brave is the only case up for discussion. You have always agreed with the Dancing Brave rating but I'd be interested in you explaining the inconsistencies in your arguments. You say you always judge a horse on the horse he beats into second, in DB's Guineas he beat a sprinter. In the Derby he was beaten by Shahrastani and I agree with the common view that he should've won. That horse went on to thrash the Irish Derby field but, as you yourself have said, any 3yo generation can be a weak crop and they can't be judged until they've met their elders. Although it should be said that the elders could also be a weak crop.

Triptych is pivotal to the form that DB showed against his elders. He beat her comfortably in the Eclipse, then when narrowly beating Shardari in the King George (on 1lb more favourable terms than 3yos would get today) Triptych was in 3rd. Shardari then went on to confirm the form by beating Triptych at York. Shardari had taken 10 runs to win his first Gp1, which is something you have viewed as a negative when judging current runners. Also, the horse who finished directly behind him in both of those Gp1s was Triptych so once again she is crucial to the form.

In the Arc, DB beat Bering, a horse with a big reputation but who in reality only had one Gp1 to his name, a Gp1 where the form didn't amount to anything exceptional and he was only beating his own age group. Directly behind Bering was the ubiquitous Triptych and Shardari was narrowly behind her. As Shardari had comprehensively beaten Triptych in his previous two runs I'd be interested in your explanation for the turnaround in form. Was Shardari below his best (likely) or do you think that Triptych improved at this late stage? (less likely).

As you have argued that Frankel's form was all linked with the same horses and that they have been overrated along with him, I think it's fair to say that Dancing Brave's form is largely tied up with Triptych. As you have also said that you judge a horse on the horse it beats into second, then leaving Triptych's robustness qualities to one side, I would be interested in your views on the horses she beat into second when winning her Gp1s.

Please don't respond with the vague and trite reply that DB beat the best Arc field ever assembled or that Triptych was a multiple Gp1 winner, instead of applying the same scrutiny you apply to today's form. Remember, these aren't my criteria for judging a great horse, they are yours.

So, the 2 questions I asked have remained unanswered, 1.01 really wasn't it?
I'll try again. Why do you think Shardari's form with Triptych was reversed in the Arc? What is your opinion on the horses Triptych beat when winning her Gp1s?

Figgis you trot through Derby and Arc winners etc as if that has anything to do with Farhh, Cirrus Des Aigles and Excelebration.  The nearest Farhh and CDA got to an Arc winner was a horse who finished 15th the last time he ran in it ffs.

And your attack on Triptych (8 Group 1 wins including the Irish 2000 Gns against the boys) show only how desperate you have become. That is 8 Group 1 wins won by Triptych (only one of the Group 1 winners in DB's Arc) which adds up to what Farhh, CDA and Exceleration have won put together.

Brigust,
I don't think Farhh's rating was raised after his defeats by Frankel, it was raised after his runs against SYT ans in the eclipse against Nathaniel. Don't think he was raised anymore after was he?

Ok, as a 3yo Triptych won one Gp1, which was against the boys and should be commended for that, however, using your own criteria she beat a horse called Celestial Bounty, who only went on to win a listed race later in the year. I've already stated her achievements as a 4yo. As a 5yo she beat Takfa Yahmed whose only win was the Gp2 Prix Dollar later that year. She beat Rakaposhi King, a Gp3 winner. She beat Ascot Knight a Scottish Derby winner. She beat Entitled, a Gp3 winner and she beat Most Welcome, another Gp3 winner. What was it you were saying about Gp1s getting easier?

Sorry Stevie I currently have the Official Handicapper on 138 and Timeform on 140 for Dancing Brave.  Is that not correct? So if the OH has DB 2lbs behind Frankel (I don't agree by the way)then on that basis Frankel should be 142 on Timeform.

The Official Handicapper had Dancing Brave on 141 and Frankel on 140. They dropped DB by 3lbs putting him on 138. Timeform had Dancing Brave on 140 the same as the OH. Therefore Frankel should be 142. No?

If you are happy with DB on the timeform scale then yes you could have Frankel on 142 but you would then have to drop DB on the official scale as well as Frankel. So on the official scale you would be looking at 136 Frankel and 134 Dancing Brave. This then puts Sea The Stars in between Frankel and Dancing Brave. You just have to adjust to the different scales. Same with RPRs their ratings are around 3lb lower than timeforms so again Frankel's 143 would have to be dropped.

Sorry, Thirsk Hunt Cup winner, mustn't overstate his achievements

Figgis you are obviously completely lacking about how these horses had to run on handicaps etc, a bit like Arkle, because there were so few Group races compared with today. Plus there was no AW, Meydan etc etc. What you need to address is your hatred of history. It is sad because one day Frankel, Excelebration, CDA and Farhh will be history too when the hype has gone and all that is left is in black and white. I wonder what the new form students will make of that at least the next champions fans will have something to slaughter. And at least Dancing Brave etc have stood the test of time.

If you are so misguided in thinking the Queen Anne Stakes, Maurice de Gheest, Jacques le Marois and Pix de la Foret are among the races trainers specifically target and lay horses out for then you have already shown how little you know.

I loved the racing in the 80s and I think Figgis did too, can't see any hatred of history. In the same way you question Frankel's rating Brigust, Figgis has always questioned DBs rating. I can't see anything wrong with this as long as you don't get obsessed by it. It passes time between races anyhow. I might look in tomorrow if thread still going.

yes you've made some very good points Figgis and well remembered. I could not even remember Celestial Storm running in handicaps, I vaguely remember blue and yellow colours and Cumani trained him but that's about it. It's too far back for the RP site.

I will treat your last point with the total contempt it deserves Figgis.


I personally think DB was rated correctly and it was only recently for no apparent reason the new guard disagreed. It is suspicious to say the least and I have on tape Dominic Gardner Hill saying before the Champion Stakes that Frankel would have to beat Cirrus des Aigles by 7 lengths to surpass Dancing Brave. This he clearly failed to do and I will always mistrust the way this was carried out.

I have requested repeatedly a copy of any statement prior to Frankel where this period was rated wrongly and I know an ex senior handicapper who is  disgusted about the whole thing. But as he says in his letter, 'I cannot be seen to say anything derogatory about Frankel'. Dancing Brave was fortunately owned by Frankel's owner and I have a personal correspondence from a current senior handicapper as well as the ex senior handicapper that give succour to my own opinion so I will rest happy with that.

I have requested repeatedly

Brig, would you class this as normal behaviour over such a matter?

nearly all of the discussions you have on here, not just with me but with others posters, end up with you making condescending remarks like the one below

No, brig, just you and one other poster with a tendency to preach, try to stop assuming you're speaking for everyone

Ah yes, the Extel handicap. Always looked forward to that race. The one that stands out in my memory was Paul Cole's Broken Hearted, bolted up and looked a group horse and went on to prove it too. Haven't got a clue what the race is called now or even if they still have it.

Figgis why don't you wind your neck in?

I asked you quite openly on this thread whether or not you thought the Queen Anne Stakes was the best performance by any racehorse since ratings began. You refused to agree that it was because you couldn't. Why? Because it isn't. Yet the BHA and Timeform both think that is the race that puts Frankel ahead of Dancing Brave. Live with it.

I have always stated quite openly and clearly that I know very little about Dancing Brave or his races and if you read back through this thread you will see quite clearly that it is you who constantly and repeatedly returns to Dancing Brave. It is therefore you who has the agenda here not me. It is you who has the problem. It is you who has the closed mind and a limited supply of old Raceform notebooks. I wasn't even thinking about Dancing Brave or Triptych.

We've been here before about you condescending attitude but you really cannot help yourself. Just don't try to blame anyone else for it.