Sri Putra is capable of very decent form and is a good yardstick IMO

So anyone crabbing a formline involving him is off the mark.

I would call it the "if Sri Putra's performance doesn't fit in with my non-objective view of SYT just
Ignore him" thread.

My view on ratings are that they are handy on a 6 month to yearly basis but not so much on a race to race basis for getting the true picture of a horse, afterall you are trying to apply a black and white formula to the grey area of a horse race.

*preconceived

You have a choice if you want to raise So You Think to a rating of 132 you have to assume Work Force has ran a career high over a trip probably short of his best and faster ground than ideal. You also have to assume Sri Putra ran to a career high and had improved by 4lb from his Ascot run.

Or you can leave So you think on a mark of 129 with Sri Putra improving from Ascot by a pound matching his careeer high and Work Force running slightly below his best with conditions not ideal.

I think the latter is more likely

I think Workforce being left in front way too early was a bigger factor in his getting beat, he broke the track record in the derby on fast ground ... maybe the combination of fast ground and shorter trip where the first half of the race wasn't fast enough for him all added up to a slightly under par performance.

As to the ground, yes he won an Arc on soft ground but was an all out head victory over Nakayama Festa, in receipt of the 8lbs wfa allowance, much superior to all his other pieces of form? Not as far as I'm concerned it wasn't.

Sandown
I don't understand at all your point about the Cool Macavity race, it was nearly 4 secs slower than the Eclipse resulting in a time rating that wouldn't even win an average claimer, on my scale. Point taken about the Highland Knight race, but personally I gave up on a uniform allowance encapsulating all races on a card a few years ago. There are many many instances of one race being out of kilter with the rest.

Figgis

I prefer to work to a conservative figure i.e one which doen't credit a handicapper with an improvement in time rating over its handicap mark until future performaances verify that he ran above that mark. given that, I can't rate the Eclipse figure for SYT higher than 120, same as TS.

As for different allowances over the same course but from different start points, well I don't believe that degree of precision is possible. You end up making the figures fit a preconceived idea.

i thought SYT was very impressive in the end on saturday....he's won it cosy for me in the end, the proximity of the 2nd horse owes more to the fact that it took a good deal of time for hefferman to get the horse sorted and running for him....which once he did he picked workforce up easily enough...very impressive.

You make a good point IMO, hes simply not as good under O'Brien as he was when in Australia IMHO.

Now watch the $hit storm start!

He is a very good genuine Group 1 horse, but no superstar - if the Sea The Stars that won the race 2 years ago had been in that race he'd have won cosily by 2-3 lengths. Physically So You Think is s good a looker as I've seen - very big but well proportioned.

So You Think's form since coming under the care of Aidan O'Brien is 11211. That includes three wins in Group Ones, a second in another one and a 10 length win in a Group 3. The horse's campaigns in Australia lasted two months - ForceMajeure clearly failes to recognise this and thinks So You Think should win every Group One he competes as he did the 2010 Cox Plate or 2010 Mackinnon. Unfortuntely that is not going to be case in normal circumstances, and in particular when you're racing from the 2nd of May to possibly near the end of November, it's going to be near impossible. Add in the fact that the races in Europe are stronger than the others in Australia.

Of course, ForceMajuere will have no answer to the above paragraph just like all the questions that are asked of him on this forum - except to repeat the same old drivel that he has been writing up until now. 

Unclepuncle - I am a massive fan of So You Think and though I think Sea The Stars is the greatest I've seen, I think you are being harsh on So You Think too: There is only one horse in the whole of Europe that has dominated a distance like So You Think has his in 2011 - Frankel. That kind of shows the rarity of SYT's achievements thus far in 2011. And maybe we have different definitions of 'superstar' but any horse who wins three Group Ones in a season is certainly close to superstar status in my opinion. And I've no doubt there's more to come - possibly in the Arc. A very, very good racehorse and a win at Longchamp will elevate him to greatness.

53 is bigger than I thought but I wouldn't have included fillies or 2yos in my own mind so that might bring the total down a bit. Plus are these European trained racehorses? Maybe you could post them all? It also means that on average 4.4 racehorses win 3 or more Group Ones every year so at worst So You Think would make a top 4.4 racheorses in Europe on average ever year. Are you saying he is not top 4.4?

It is also not So You Think's fault that most racehorses are afraid to take him on...in relation to your last statement, what Group 1 winners this season would you like to have seen him beat? Frankel, Twice Over, Midday have not taken him on....which is hardly the So You Think's fault. Canford Cliffs and Rewilding are retired and passed away respectively. So your last comment is a bit of a fallacy - when you read into it a bit.

Anyway, I do not wish to get into a debate about this. The horse is very good and whatever doubters exist, they will always produce arguments like the one above. I am not sure what it would take to convince you otherwise grendal, but it's doubtful my words will change your understated view of this racehorse.

As requested SYT:-

Albanova,Alexandrova,Attraction,Bago,Black Caviar,Blue Bunting,Canford Cliffs,Crimplene,Dalakhani,Dancing Rain,Darjina,Divine Proportions,Duke Of Marmalade,Dylan Thomas,Falbrav,Fantastic Light,Frankel,Galileo,Giant's Causeway,Goldikova,Grandera,Halfway To Heaven,Henrythenavigator,Johannesburg,Kutub,Lush Lashes,Mandesha,Manduro,Marchand D'Or,Marienbard,Midday,Montjeu,New Approach,Peeping Fawn,Petrushka,Pride,Ramonti,Rewilding,Rock Of Gibraltar,Rocket Man,Russian Rhythm,Sacred Kingdom,Schiaparelli,Sea The Stars,Shamardal,Sinndar,Snow Fairy,So You Think,Soviet Song,Stacelita,Star Witness,Vision D'Etat,Zarkava.

He beat famous name by 6 1/2 lengths, famous name is rated 117. What would that make SYT (if you ignored the snow fairy run)?

The original statement was 'so you think overrated'. And goes on to say'clearly workforce is better at 1m4f, so it follows that he wasn't at his best yesterday'. The danger with that is IF SYT stays 1m4f then he could well have the measure of workforce again. I can't find the quote but read somewhere that the previous trainer of SYT was asked to comment on Saturdays performance & mumbled the word 'fat'. My worry for you all is that SYT is not yet fully fit & IF he turns up for the Arc there will be a fair few sheepish people about. I'm happy for myself as I'm well 'topped up' & am still chipping away at the 6-1 on here. Of course he may well not run given the investment & danger. But if he does I suspect he'll have the measure of them all. I'm prepared for the backlash & this is simply my opinion of which we are all entitled to. I just think this horse oozes Class & whilst he might not be everything they claim he more than often does enough.

Thank you for the list Grendel but it might need refining. E.g. Star Witness and Black Caviar are included but other Australians such as Apache Cat and Weekend Hussler aren't? I think if you take out the former two, you have all European trained racehorses who won three or more Group Ones in one season? But then there's the likes of Ouija Board won 3 Group Ones in 2004 and 2006, and Snow Fairy last year but I presume it's because their third win came in USA and Japan respectively that they have not been included?

so at worst So You Think would make a top 4.4 racheorses in Europe on average ever year. Are you saying he is not top 4.4?

I would certainly say he is . Frankel,Canford Cliffs and Goldikova being superior.

At Middle Distance i would have him Number 1 this year.

But still that means he seems to have been overated .Becuase the way Coolmore and their followers and some Aussies have talked him up he was supposed to be in the top 0.7 of horses you would see in Europe in an average year! We were told he was one of the best we would see in our lifetimes, not one of the 3 or 4 best of an average year.

Of course if had a spectacular victory in The Arc or Breeder's Cup Classic or beat Frankel then we would be obliged to revise our opinions dramatically .I would be happy yo do so, never mind admitting i'm wrong. But until that happens i'd prefer to rate him on what i've seen him do rather than on what people say he might be able to do.

Thank you for that contribution Platini.