Andrew in Sweden Joined: 10 Nov 07
Replies: 670 22 Apr 11 08:03 
ilikewavingatbuses Joined: 06 Jun 09
Replies: 10759 22 Apr 11 01:24   


take frankel for example if he fails in the guineas thats it , its over, the 'greatness', the record, it can never be fixed, sts achieved greatness.

Silly statement. Can Nijinsky, Mill Reef, Dancing Brave, et all not be considered one of the 'greats' because they lost a race, or even several. STS, another 'great' also lost !



ok fair point andrew but it is a detractor. it will always been that 'thing', that talking point such as DB not winning  a derby and as great as his turn of foot was, he didnt get there, it doesnt matter how far back he , jockey error (which i believe wasnt the only reason btw, i think his balance let him down and didnt fully handle the course), he will always have that on his record. there isnt anything like that with sea the stars, he did it, he won every one of them, he looked beat in the juddmonte for a split second but he pulled it out at the end to win easily. if he didnt have the turn of foot to get off the rail in the arc as the pacemakers were coming back that would have been the equivalent of DB derby or how nijinski not quite getting up in the arc but he got up, he got off the rai because he could, he had the ability and won so easily in the end THATS the difference.

Andrew in Sweden Joined: 10 Nov 07
Replies: 670 22 Apr 11 09:22 
A-T, i'm not suggesting that at all, I was simply responding to the post from ilikewavingatbuses although I doubt it would be a forgone conclusion if STS and Zarkava had ever met. Is it such a big deal she only raced on 2 Parisean tracks, she only had 7 races after all and although she was a highly strung filly (many are) that should not detract from her brilliance. If Henry Cecil had trained her under the same circumstances, winning 5 group 1's including the fillies triple crown, an Arc (all with a tremendous turn of foot) and remaining unbeaten in 7 before retiring to stud, many on here would be calling her the best filly ever. I've been lucky enough to see many great fillies in my lifetime including Dahlia, Oh So Sharp, Dunfermline, Pawneese and Golikova to name a few, but Zakarka was the best of them in my opinion.


of course its a big deal, we are debating two great race horses against each other and trying to prove who is the better and looking and each and trying to find out any faults. we are talking potentially the best EVER in the history of the sport and ever field and challange must be looked at, what did they face, how did they win, what did they win, the tracks etc...

i though it was well put by the poster that it was like playing at home, thats exactly what it was like, imagine if sts only ever raced at leopardstown and then went to i dunno say navan ONCE in his career. ok of course longchamp has better races but can u not see how much easier that would have been for him, practically no travel. she never travelled, and i take what someone said 'where else would she had gone'? and thats a fair point, shes trained in france it he career was built around there but whilst she was facing fillies that she had already beat easily time and time again, there were much more competitive races against males and older horses in the UK and IRE which she took no part in. can that be said of sea the stars? NO! he took part in pretty much any g1 worth mentioning and any of the ones he didnt win wee won by horses he already beat. people keep talking about 09 being a weaker year the 08? can someone please explain to me how this is so? and also explain it to me that helps the case of zarkava, theres no point mentioning new approach if the two never met, him beating twice over has no bearing on how good her form is if they never actually sat side by side in the stalls on day. what did she beat? have u looked at the form of the vermille/diane etc... joke races, only goldi and  dar ri me worth mentioning up until the arc.

^^^^^ I think you've said everything I wanted to say a lot more eloquently than I could have Andrew. I think this sums up my oppinion on this trio

Goldikova

ah yeah, just opinion, workforce might have beat them both silly

i sure hope so even tho i may seem against him sometimes, i think we all just want to see special horses yr in yr out. v exciting if he does win the guineas and then goes straight to the derby, i personally dont think he'll stay and u may have seen me debate it with mr morris but i just take the pig headed approach to annoy him as he wont budge eitherway

love pathfork myself too, he could be the star.

Just for the sake of it who do you rate the better STS or Nijinsky?Both greats but one sets the benchmark when we talk about 'real' greatness in winning the Triple Crown after being CH 2 y'old of 1969,the other ducked his chance of having any claim to be regarded remotely equal in comparison by side stepping the TC.My vote goes to Nijinsky.

yes like u i wanted him to go for the leger and would have beat the godolphi pair imo but alas we'll never know.

Thinking back, Nijinsky was probably my first confident 'real' bet but as a low paid apprentice I had to dip into savings to back him.

secretariat around in early 70s too. wonder if they ever had secret races nijinsky vs big red at claibourne[;)]

ah brilliant cheers andrew, appreciat that.

Andrew, look through Zarkava's female bloodline and you can fully appreciate what the Aga Khan has achieved. Satisfaction doesn't even begin to describe how he must feel:

http://www.agakhanstuds.com/home/home.asp

A_T, Zarkava is a great. There was nowhere to send her, she did it all and there's every chance that the colt she's just produced by STS may be a future sire-of-sires.

Hippie,

Thanks, the Aga Khan certainly has an incredible stud empire (including STS), almost like a French Coolmore.

I go for the Arc weekend most years and when STS won, the Aga Khan had 3 group winners on the Saturday and 4 group 1's on the Sunday !

hippie Joined: 07 Jun 05
Replies: 3660 22 Apr 11 16:02 
If the Arc isn't is the race to take on all-comers then there isn't one. The English and Irish derby winners bottled it and the Prix du Jockey Club winner was firmly put in his place.

She's the culmination of over 35 years of this Aga Khan's nurturing of the bloodline and almost 90 years of his family's work. She was never going to race at four and everybody knows (almost everybody) that his breeding programme is as important to the Aga Khan as racing is.

Andrew, the relationship between the Aga Khans and Zarkava's family is like something out of a fairy-tale. The true romance of horse-racing.




she raced fillies all but once, all time great? perhaps one of the great FILLIES, but being shipped off to stud as soon as she beats the males? come on. didnt race males until her last race on he home track that she had raced 6/7 times, this isnt greatness.

i mean she can be considered a brilliant filly but to actually put her in the same bracket as sts , db, nijinski, sea bird, on what she actually achieved on the track really puts down what they achieved imo.

opening herself up to ONE race against colts , in her last race at her fav track in her home country, and her home track.  this needs to be put in pespective  imo.

the arc is the only time she ever had to race the boys, surely to be 'great' u gotta race the lads more than once, her connections limited her programme to very winnable races in france. u jst proved my point, it was 100yrs since a filly won it so if she'd have gone and won then we would be able to CONSIDER her in the same light but instead she took part in the diane, which looks like a g3 UK standards

i gave u the form, nothing of any note is in behind other than goldi, the rest struggled to win g3s ffs[smiley:crazy]

Andrew in Sweden Joined: 10 Nov 07
Replies: 678 22 Apr 11 17:05 
never left france? why want the epsom derby considered, surely that would have been a much better race if her owners were concerned about breeding?

Fillies rarely go for the Epsom Derby (or any Derby for that matter). The last filly to win it was almost 100 years ago; they
are disadvantaged against colts that early in the year, only receiving 5 lbs.



so u agree they looked after her a targeted weaker races?

surely all time greats dont do this

its just a friendly discussion hippie, surely its what we're all here for, this is everyone fav part of racing surely. its the fun part. im not saying im right, i dont know, im just putting good questions out there to be answered if they can, we're talking about all time greats here and its important we flesh it out now and again no?

feel bad for hijacking the goldi thread tho discussing these 2, prob shouldve started a new thread.

Agree with A_T there.  At the weights she comes out 1lb higher than Youmzain on that Arc run. Hardly stuff of legend.  This is not to denigrate what she actually has done, just can't rate her as high as others.

You need a horse to prove it's the best a few times to get all-time great status and Zarkava simply didn't do enough in her short career.
Ironically, he victim, Goldikova has a shout at greatness for longevity, consistency, versatility and class.

No-one seems to think that Lammtarra is an all time great, or Workfroce (yet) and their records are comparable with zarkava.

Apols if repeated anything from earlier.

Prima Donna Joined: 29 Apr 09
Replies: 3166 22 Apr 11 18:22 
A T,Just so as you know I personally know the Aga and he felt she was so special along with her trainer that she had nothing left to prove,lots talk about Dalakhani as a very good colt his trainer one of them,but Zarkava is regarded as superior."The personal disappointment of seeing her beaten" as you say may be true as he rarely keeps fillies in training at 4 certainly ones as good as her.
And just one more thing regarding STS running in the St.Leger impacting on his commercial value,as a breeder and having mares that are of that class (GR1)he would of not received a single mare less,perhaps his connections also felt 'the personal disappointment of seeing him beat' had he run maybe they knew his limitations they knew he was perhaps not as tough and as versatile as Nijinsky.


cant have that at all, sure he swatted them away like flys. mick went on recored saying the horses only ever showed 75% of his ability.


lammtarra is vastly underrated, quite astonishing to think whet he achieved  on just 4 visits to the track, remarkable.

i suppose the same could be said of zarkava, they knew she prob wouldve been beat if they sent her to the derby or abroad, they knew her limitations as u say.

as for versatility, if sts  isnt tough and versatile, what does that make zarkava?

jair1970,I agree but we all do it from time to time,and I also agree with your view of Lamtarra his achievements were remarkable