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"A wedge from 155 yards"
"A wedge from 155 yards"
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Replies: 227
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Ian Baker Finch
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Seve
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Tiger
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etc
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Do you know Baker Finch was one of the greatest putters ever..still is.
Had to give the game up, tee shots were going sideways. Seve greatest short game player ever. Couldn`t win after his tee shots became a problem. Tiger started as one of the longest and best drivers of the ball ever...warning signs are there |
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lfc
good banter mate Picked a few names there proves zip. Sounds as if I'm big-noting but mates with 2nd hand rose(baker-finch),your going down the wrong path with that analysis. keep at it though and as I said Go talk with them ask them and then tell them they were wrong.(concerning what you consider to be important). |
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Okay, I think everyone is getting a little confused, trying to compare apples to oranges. What's more important, distance or putting? The things cannot be compared so simply, because neither has been quantified. For example:
Distance < 230yards Putting < 50% from 4 feet It's meaningless to compare. The PGA produce a ton of stats on their website. However, remember that the stats are SKEWED because the top players don't play in the all minor events. They tend to play on the more major events which in turn are played on some of the toughest courses. However, it is possible to get some clue as to importance of each shot: Putting: Putts for Greens In Regulation (very very close. Majority of players between 1.7 and 1.8) David Hearn Phil Mickelson Greg Chalmers Aaron Baddeley Charlie Wi Bryce Molder Charley Hoffman Justin Leonard Billy Horschel Jason Bohn Brandt Snedeker Driving Distance: (very close stats, top 30% are > 290yds) Luke List Nicolas Colsaerts Bubba Watson Gary Woodland Dustin Johnson Jason Kokrak Keegan Bradley Eric Meierdierks Ryan Palmer Robert Garrigus Martin Flores Driving Accuracy (% of fairways hit): Half the firld > 60%, Leaders 70% Jerry Kelly Tim Clark Mark Wilson Justin Hicks Chez Reavie Henrik Stenson Ken Duke Jim Furyk Jeff Maggert Steve Stricker Zach Johnson Read what you want to in those stats, but I can see nothing standout about it all. When hitting a Green in Regulation, all players expect < 1.8 putts. Most players expect to hit about 60% of fairways. A few big names are in the driver distance top 10. Now let's look at this stat: Birdie or Better from Fairway (big spread in stats. Leader = 29.63%, median = 21%, bottom = 14%) Tiger Woods Phil Mickelson Charl Schwartzel Brandt Snedeker Ryan Palmer Rory Sabbatini Billy Horschel Steve Stricker David Hearn Chris Kirk Bubba Watson In other words, for approach shots when Woods is on the fairway, he's getting 30% birdies! That stat is phenomenal. Therefore, in my opinion, and using this rather unscientific analysis, I believe the most important shot in the game of golf is the approach shot. Get up the fairway as far as possible to put yourself in a good position to score. The approach shot is the scoring shot. |
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Another very interesting (but older) article:
http://www.popeofslope.com/downloads/therealdifference.pdf The Real Difference You & Tiger Considering a Par 3 hole, 176 yards (amateurs off 154 yards!) Average Putts: Pro: 1.9 10 Handicap: 2.3 So over 18 holes, a medium handicapper is dropping < 4shots against the pros. High handicapper is dropping 8. Greens in Regulation: In other words, the approach shot Pro: 83% 10 Handicap: 21% So over 18 holes, a medium handicapper is dropping 4 shots against the pros. High handicapper is dropping 11. But remember that these stats are with the amateurs playing from 154 yards, not 175 yards. Given all of this I would suggest that so long as you're not 3 putting all the greens, then you're probably not losing too many shots. However, if you can't hit a green from 175 yards 85% of the time, then you're miles behind. Most pros would probably hit an 8i to 175 yards, most amateurs would probably hit a log iron / wood. |
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You are drawing the wrong conclusion from this. You are saying the approach shot is the scoring shot but what is
important from these figures is that the shot is from the fairway. Yet again it is the drive that is important, finding the fairway and far enough down to enable a good approach shot. This is so clear in Woods and every other golfer. If they get their drives right it is becomes like shelling peas. |
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You say yourself when Woods is on the fairway(and he hits it a long way also) he`s getting 30% birdies
Very interesting stats that show just how important the tee shot is. |
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By the way 30% is not quite as good as it seems. Taking away the par 3s an important percentage are par 5s
when Woods if he hits the fairway should be getting a birdie on average(taking into account the chance of an eagle) closer to 100% of the time, so the figures are a little skewed. |
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No, I think I'm agreeing with you. To score (birdie), you need to be in an attacking position. So, on the fairway, and far enough along so that you can hit a short approach shot as close to the pin as possible.
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Yes i agree.
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But it all depends on what courses you want to play. There are some old folk at my local course who just shove the ball off the tee. Shove to the edge of the green. Chip closish to the hole. Put for par. Job done. But put them on a long (PGA) course and they wouldn't break 100.
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I think the par 5s show this most clearly. If Woods can hit a good and long drive and reach the green in 2,it
dosn`t matter how far from the pin he is almost guaranteed to get at least a birdie, even if he is an average putter, and of course he will have many chances for an eagle putt to drop in. |
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But Woods' strength is definitely not his tee shot. He's 66th on distance and 77th on accuracy.
It's his phenomenal approach shots which set him apart. |
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Mr Angry you are getting confused, this shows how important the tee shot is. It is not Woods admittedly
superb approach shots or fine putting that is important....it is when he drives far done the fairway that he is in place to do this...nothing is more important to Woods as your stats would suggest. |
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But there are dozens of players which greater distance and accuracy than Woods.
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Now if you said to me that when Woods hit a poor drive lacking distance and didn`t find the fairway
and was getting 30% birdies from such then i would come to the same conclusion as you. |
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There are also dozens of better golfers than Woods now.
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That's a fair point. Though he is still rated #1
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Woods was a better golfer when he was 17 than he is now. In fact he was the best golfer in the world at that age.
Of course then he had about a 30% driving distance advantage. |
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True. Between 1997 and 2007 - Woods was in or around the top 10 for driving distance. Now he's top 60 only. Mickelson was also in the top 10 up to about 2003 too.
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But if you look through all the stats on the PGA, the one set which reallyk stands out (to me) as being representative of the most successful golfers, is the Approach to the Green - Birdie or Better Percentage - Fairway.
For year after year, it's the big names at the top. 2013: Woods Mickelson Schwartzel Snedeker Palmer 2012: McIlroy Dufner Woods Palmer Laird Bradley 2011: Simpson Day Johnson Baddeley Watney Fowler Mahan Donald 2010: Johnson Kuchar Ogilvy Michelson Watney 2009: Kim Woods Couples Sabbatini Clark Stricker 2008: Palmer Mickelson Cink Villegas Sabbatini It's like a who's who of big tournament winners. To me this indicates that getting the ball near the pin on the approach shot it what separates the winners from the also rans. |
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Top of the Putters: Random (exception Mickelson)
Top of the Drivers / Accuracy: Random Top of the Approach: All the major winners of that year |
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Of course getting the ball near the pin is important, but not as much as you might think.
Look at it this way, if a golfer, professional or not, can find the fairways and be straight and long enough to find the par 4s and 5s in two then he can afford to take 36 putts per round and he will shoot 68 or 69 on a par 72. This will leave him 12-16 under after 4 rounds and will win any tournament...after taking 36 putts per round!! |
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So how long and straight do you need to be?
I would suggest: long enough to make the approach shot as good as possible (short / medium iron). And hit as many fairways as possible. For most golfers playing on short courses, hitting 230 yards off the tee is probably okay. For pros, hitting 250 would barely get you on the course. |
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Yes i suppose for the ordinary club golfer maybe 220 off the tee and fairly straight is very
important in being able to enjoy a round of golf |
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lfc1971 18 Aug 13 09:03
There are also dozens of better golfers than Woods now. I think you are just here to wind people up. Woods has a 5.5 point lead in the wgr even though he hasnt played his full quota of events. He has double the points world number 6 Matt Kuchar has. He has 5 wins in 12 starts on tour this year alone. No one has had 5 wins in a season since woods in 09. Other than Vijay Singh in 04 i can't remember a player winning 5 or more in a year. As for the putting v driving debate the key of the tee is getting it in play. Plenty of guys will this alone won't be enough to win the event for you. The key comes ultimately in how many putts you hole. Luke Donald was a perfect example for a few years he got to thee top of the game. In each year 09-11 he was first in strokes gained putting. Golf is littered with players who have driven it allover the place but won. You won't find anyone who had a bad week putting but won. |
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lfc1971 18 Aug 13 09:07
Woods was a better golfer when he was 17 than he is now. In fact he was the best golfer in the world at that age. Of course then he had about a 30% driving distance advantage. more horseshIt he didn't even win his first US amateur title until he has 18yrs 8mnths. In 1993 as a 17 year old he player three tour events. He missed the cut in them all 25 over for his 6 rounds. In 1994 he played three events more and missed the cut in the lot. 21 over for 6 rounds. In 1995 aged 19 he finally started making some cuts 1996 hello world and the show started. The idea he was better at 17 than now is nonsense. |
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Of course you will not win if you putt badly, that is simply a meaningless statement in the
context of the debate. You will not win if you drive badly. Also there is simply no doubt that Tigers game has got steadily worse from about the age of twenty. It was for someone of his ability perfectly possible to be the best player in the world even before turning professional...and he was. |
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It is also true that there are many better golfers then Tiger now.
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long hitting pro at my club hits a 9 iron 145 yards.
If i go after a 9 iron , i can hit it 130 maximum, but lose accuracy unless i am really playing well. (timing it) some real liars going about on here, to carry the ball 300 in the air in a european/british climate is fantasy for an 8 handicapper. I play of 7 and can drive it 300+, but that is on a links course that is hard and fast (ie) the ball runs 40 yards after pitching. |
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much better players than Tiger?, yes, a number of players have multiple wins this year.
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Aberdonia, I agree that statement doesn't come much more stupid than this : It is also true that there are many better golfers then Tiger now.
But yours isn't the smartest either as 145 with a nine iron by definition isn't long. Above average yes, but not long. I also think ronsk is just(like most hobby golfers) overestimating his distance. |
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I don't have a handicap (don't play too much - but spend lots of spare time on range). But my scoring averages measued on three separate rounds from a couple of years ago:
Average Driver (total): 285 Average 3W (total): 245 3i: 210 My weakness in scoring is my approach shots. Direction and contact are all good - but distance judgement is very poor. Hitting 28% green (50% if measuring to fringe). A typical round would have me at about 12 over. Chipping also poor. Again, good contact and technique, just poor judgement of distance. I use a range finder to measure distance to pin, but if you asked me now what how to hit a 55 yard, I'd just be guessing (probably a half 52 wedge). Hence the misjudgement. That's why I was considering getting a Trackman type device for my garden. Hitting real golf balls and knowing real distances to get comprehensive yardages. Still on my XMas list (GC2 device). |
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But tour pros dont play 9 irons as we know them. The loft will be knowhere near a 9 iron.
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* a traditional 9 iron.
and distances when playing in Europe and in hotter climes dont bear comparison. |
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Phil Mickelson bag:
Driver: Carry 300, 8.1 degrees 3W: 270, 15 5W: 250, 18 4i: 230, 21 5i: 215, 26 6i: 205, 29.4 7i: 190, 33 8i: 175, 36 9i: 160, 41 PW: 145, 47 GW: 125, 53 SW: 105 60 LW: 85, 64 Standard Callaway X Forged: 3i: 21 degrees 4i: 24 5i: 27 6i: 30 7i: 34 8i: 38 9i: 42 PW: 46 So Mickelson's lofts are roughly similar to standard. |
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When Phil comes over here you would be surprised at the distance differential. Hits it knowwhere near as far.
Having never played in the US, i have no idea how far it would go, in say the likes of Florida. Much further than in Scotland, that is for sure. |