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THE PREMIUM CHARGE MUST BE SCRAPPED
THE PREMIUM CHARGE MUST BE SCRAPPED
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No, my first reply said recreational punters failing to get on in tumbleweed markets was not a problem to bf so long as the people who wd bet in the mornings at a fine price get on with bf in the afternoons at best price.
You are doing what we all want to do--backwards-engineering what is best for you. Personally I wd love bookmakers advertising in the RP Pricewise box to be legally obliged to hold their prices to a £500 stake per customer per runner through the morning, w/ no exchange markets until two hours before off time. But dream on. If I want to bet, I have to recruit a network of unreliable placers and cultivate cashiers with boxes of chocolates. Or I have to spend a ratio of 3:1 in time getting on to making my selections. We all have to think how the people we win from are going to be able to pay us. This is getting harder and harder for anyone not operating in late markets. |
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The fact is the early prices on here are attracting only about 3% of the market. I do not think the current way the market operates on here is very efficient. There is business to be done but it is not happening on Betfair. Not everyone that wants to bet early is a winner.
From Betfair's point of view I think they should try to make changes to get more market share. There is very little downside as they are not making much commission from it anyway. From winning punters point of view maybe they prefer the status quo because with effort they can get on with the bookies with the prices staying wrong for longer. I remember early on Julian Wilson asking Betfair to open their markets later so the market was not ruined too early. |
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I don't think there is a solution to dire liquidity in early horse racing markets. Reduction factors for all runners, rather than just those under 40s would help because early layers need every help they can get, no PC would help a bit and zero commission for those sticking offers up early would help, but you'll only get proper early liquidity if there is sufficient early casual demand and there's only sufficient early casual demand in big races. If you stick a sizeable offer up in a market with little early casual demand..1. you show your hand and 2. a couple of £3 bets are likely to jump in front of you. Nevertheless, if you make a mistake a shrewdie will take it. It's a situation where you can't win.
Would there be more casual demand if there was no PC? Well there would but its impossible to quantify what the knock on effect is of the loss of feel good factor/community spirit and lack of advocate promotion is. Further you've got less racing on telly, and now a complete lack of charismatic racing presenters, and sports betting transcending horse racing betting. |
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Bookmakers don't have the same restrictions. as 1. they don't pay commission. 2. they don't have £3 offers jumping their prices and 3. they can restrict the access of shrewdies and insiders. The exchange can't win in these markets.
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The lower commission and larger tick size gets rid of the first two problems.
Shrewdies and insiders is always a problem. Even in the last ten minutes you see horses be backed or drift large amounts. Non of us on here know at anytime who we are betting against. |
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I remember early on Julian Wilson asking Betfair to open their markets later so the market was not ruined too early.
I'm at the stage where I resent the amount of time it takes me to get on. When I see a price advertised on a table with a best-price 105% overround, I expect being able to place a small-to-medium sized three figure bet and then get on with the rest of my day. I know this expectation is unreasonable but it fits with what one would expect of advertising, marketing and customer service in any other industry. The net effect is to have me spending less time betting (most days) or spending more time (and making sure I win, just on principle). I wd welcome any suggestion like frog's which allows me to drop a chunk at a price I like and walk away. |
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don't do horses, but what clydebank says makes a lot of sense.
there seems to me to be a historic shift away from recreational betting on most horse racing due to various factors that aren't going away, and I just can't see that changing whatever happens. it's not really in BF's interest to stimulate demand with zero comms/PC for pros if it's just going to shift recreational money from other forms of fully charged betting on site. remember 2% asians on football? doubt that'll ever come back either. |
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What a joke the PC charge is.First race finger lakes tote pools winner no2 always for you 9/1.
On here 8/1(minus PC charge up to 60%) So say about 7/2 after average pc charge. Tote return pool SP deduction 0% Betfair deduction up to 60% giving you 7/2 retur, Total Betfair PC joke. |
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Betfair share stands at £8.08. Those that sold a week or so ago when cvc offered something like £9.50 must be happy.
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Yeah most so called 'experts' thought the share price would rise.Looks like The PC charge
bad feeling is having an impact on the company.Can only get worse. |
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some good points made throughout this thread
now all you have to do is somehow get the people running betfair to read it |
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to
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They do read it. The CEO even mentioned ill will on the forum when speaking to the City the other day.
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ahh ok , it will be interesting to see what they do , if anything .
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shut the forum NAP
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The liquidity in the foreign horse racing is becoming dire now.
I am on the verge of leaving Betfair forever. |
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I think we have entered the death spiral now.
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I think the idea of larger tick sizes for early horses is a great idea. Markets only form properly when there is a clear motive profit opportunity and this would provide it.
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lost 2k ish this week on bf and generated around 2k in commission plus around £500 a day on the tote...
come on MR CEO is that FAIR???? |
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why would anyone who can get enough on via channels other than betfair and who does not play IN RUNNING bet with betfair??? pre race or pre event
i want 2k on dawn approach at 2.5ish if it wins i pay 40% of 3k madness |
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sadly i do most of my main income betting via betfair in running....maybe a better solution if you read this mr corcoran would be to adopt a differential pricing up to a max of
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10% of your winnings being deducted say for in running and a max of say 4% pre race or event trading that would boost much needed liquidity for many horse races pre race etc
i'd happily pay around 6-10% comm per bet instead of 40% gamblers like me have very good runs followed by very bad ones and its the emotional damage on a bad run or having a big chunk of your winnings on a good run that really hurts your mindset |
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are you sure you would be happy paying 6-10% instead of 40%
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would work out better for me harry but a flat 4% across board would be better
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The problem for them in marketing terms is that pc kills the dream.
The initial idea of the company was to give the horse punter a better deal ('sharp minds welcome'). Very few win but everyone wants to win, so the existence of supplementary charges sours the deal and sends new blood who want to win presumably in the direction of the Asians and poker. I think bf's mistake was having the same level of comm. for traders and gamblers. Now even something as crude as 8% for traders / on green markets and 4% base rate on markets where the bettor has a certain liability at settlement wd be preferred to pc by a hefty proportion of the company's client base. |
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I was taking the p!ss andy
 I pay pc too . but for 2 years or so I didn't and when I heard about it I thought it was terrible . I don't think they can scrap it now even if they wanted to . |
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I meant that when I didn't pay pc ( and thought I never would ) , I thought it was terrible for those that did
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worst thing ever invented by betfair if they had any moral conscience they'd scrap it ASAP would win massive brownie points and the boost it would give to customer goodwill and corporate pr would be immense
might even add liquidity to the much needed markets even a ghost would struggle to get matched in running   |
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I use to speak to many gamblers in betting shops , telling them to use betfair , but most say they wouldn't because of the premium charge ( even though they would never pay it ) . they just didn't understand it.
I fear that when/if purple and laddbrokes make a push to rival betfair in 2014 , they will be in a better position marketing wise for new customers to exchanges. who knows what laddcrokes have in mind |
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greed greed greed
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Great thread from you guys.Keep it up[ lads.Would be great to e-mail you lads or have a chat.
I really think the purple has a chance if they can help seeding their markets a bit. Will Betfair help us PC players.I do not think so.I am not a trader not an in running player just a gambler who picks a horse Uk US or aussie and hopes it wins.I do well as I have the price in mind I want and try ask for the price around what I want. The problem the last few months is spreads have been getting very wide and the liquidity is drying up.Race after race in the US we are seeing many prices better in the US on track pools.That's a very bad sign as the takeout on track is high. We have a situation where after PC charge it's tiny pennies at best.Much more profitable to do poker than this. Also as a previous person wrote on here the betting shop punter is aware of the PC charge(winners tax to him/her) and has no wish to go to Betfair.Andyl's position is exactly the same as mine although we bet on different markets. It becomes very tiring with all the hard work to earn peanuts for yourself but a no lose 12 noon wednesday grab for betfair. Only to have a bad losing week then try to build ones confidence up again the next week. Like I said the markets are really drying up here.I feel the future is purple or a change on here by the management to make the PC charge fairer or better still scrap it.Otherwise with no change I feel any remaining PC players will leave and we will have another jolt downwards on liquidity. The share price is well worth watching as it will give us all an early indication which way the company is heading. |
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Scrap it.End of discussion.
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done all my bets on the golf over the road due to fear of paying pc on here
what a mess |
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Just about everybody who pays PC thinks it should be scrapped because of how it affects them. Plenty of people who do and don't pay it think it should be scrapped because it is unfair/immoral. Quite a few who do and don't pay it now think it should be scrapped before it destroys the betfair model. How many people however think it really WILL be scrapped? Not many imo.
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I'm almost sure it will be scrapped some time in the future.
Either because liquidity drops like a rock here or because liqidity picks up enough on another Exchange(probably Purple) to make it a real competitor. It's most likely to be a combination of these two that forces Betfair to scrap it though. |
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Can't see them ever scrapping it now. They've got used to their Wednesday lunchtime money grab.
They're so blind, that if there was 1 person left on here they would sooner charge them 90% than abolish the pc (imo of course) |
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what will happen in the furure unless betfair do something about the premium charge is this imo .
purple / ladbrokes will make a push to rival betfair in 2014 . if liquidity on all aspects of markets ( pre-race and in-running ) improve then pc and non pc players will move over there for fear of paying pc here , plus lower commission , plus out of spite . people who use pre-programmed bots will move over too as the markets here will become what purple is like now or even worse . it will be to late for betfair to then drop pc if purple is usable as people will feel begrudged to give them another chance . purple may or may not introduce there own pc which no doubt would be lower than on here , but people would still pay it over there , because like i said , they will not want to give betfair another chance . people who bet , use bots , lay , hedge etc , dont care where there bets are placed , as long as there bets get matched , loyalty has been thrown out of the window since the pc grab as much as we can culture came into force . the only thing that purple has over betfair is PC ( at the moment ) . betfair could crush the opposition in one fell swoop by getting rid of PC . if they wait to see what purples intentions are and how they might improve there markets , they may miss the bus so to speak . the excuse that pc is there to gain revenue for advertising is quite frankly very naive of betfair . they may aswell have just said " we see some people earning lots of money and we want some of it " . poker professionals and poker sites is a very similar business to betfair and pc payers . the sites earn money through commission same as on here , professional poker players win fortunes on the sites they use yet they dont have to pay a pc charge . the poker sites still use there own money gained in commission to use for advertising to recruit new players and the merry go round continues . i like betfair and whenever i have spoken to any of there staff i found them to be very helpful , friendly and all round good people , like someone you could have a beer with . i dont begrudge paying pc if it goes towards good causes ( faster pictures , more liquidity etc ) but if it is just a tax on good players i dont agree with it , certainly not 40-60% and over 250k , that's just silly . just my view  |
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If purple keeps improving liquidity like it is doing at present it could be a real challenge for Betfair.
I agree with most on here that 2014 purple will go for the big push. The declining share price of Betfair could become a real problem for them. It will create fear with the betfair customers especially the large depositors. Only time will tell but the negative momentum for Betfair is gathering more pace as people behind the scenes work even harder at preserving the exchange model that we have all worked so hard to build up.I agree that Betfair loyality has now gone out of the window and may never return. |
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my two cents:
think it's very unlikely they'll ever scrap or change the 20% PC charge. but it's much more likely that they'll at some point make significant changes to the higher rate charge. |
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I would certainly like **** to offer a bigger variety of markets, for example on cricket they rarely if ever do top batsman or session runs, both of which I like betting in. Liquidity is improving but still needs to go some way to match even the declining liquidity on here, which is a pity. No doubt I will eventually at least partially emigrate over there. That despite not being a PC payer, so presumably not one of the customers betfair "wants" to lose.
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