General Betting
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THE PREMIUM CHARGE MUST BE SCRAPPED
THE PREMIUM CHARGE MUST BE SCRAPPED
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Replies: 2,082
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betfair exchange is crap. build a bridge and get over it.
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ZR would be in exactly the same position as every other PC payer.
Settle for 60% of your profits or 100% of nothing. I'd be very surprised if he's happy to back losers. Can you explain,in more detail, how he wins when he backs losers. |
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Not everyone that is eligible to pay the PC, pays it.
I know this for a fact. |
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Few hundred payers are for 60 % only, didn't they say there i 5 % of customers that are paying PC? Or that is percentage of customers with life time profit accounts?
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JML for you :
he has 100's of workers/video analysts etc on the go. will bet to very small margins backing a lot of the field bar a few that have 'none' and hopes to show a small profit or even break square but because he bets so many horses through the tote his t/o is sky high and with the high rebates.........rakes it in........100% FACT apparently accounts for 30% of all BF Oz t/o.....I don't think BF would be in a hurry to pi$$ him off...he's the one that gets OZ liquidity going little by little each and every single race...the whole operation is amazing in its depth........the tax office chased him for something like 950 million........settled for somewhat less and now lives on the isle of man....wonder why lol http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeljko_Ranogajec http://www.progroupracing.com.au/horse-racing-articles/punters/zeljko-ranogajec |
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Castiron seems to back up what I am thinking re ZR
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You seriously believe everything you read on wikipedia?
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its a FACT frog, I know of the people that work for him ALL OVER THE SHOP...its a conglomerate
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The tote rebates are HUGE......
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and NO I don't believe all from WIKI I knew all before then...that was a summary for JML
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Thank you for the summary,but you didn't attempt to answer the only question I asked you.
Without futher information/evidence,Castiron's claim is worthless. If he backs to very small margins,as you state,it's a fair chance that he isn't liable for PC. |
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I don't know whether Z pays the PC.
A friend who bets mainly on harness racing in Aust, and is a market maker, did an exemption deal with Betfair. This was a few years back, and I don't know whether it is still on going. I doubt that his situation is unique. |
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just for you JML I will type slowly.....
with the tote...comprende? he will back most of the field (minimizing risk by covering most of the chances) and expects to break square or tiny profits but profit massively from rebates from said tote (we have them here in oz)....therefore happily backs losers in the same race he backs the winner ofit) but boosting the t/o of the race very high and boom boom 6 to 8 % rebate jumps in every race everywhere every single day.........its adds up very quickly! think logically.....back 7 horses at say 97% of market.....maybe win 3% plus get the rebate on the TOTAL T/O get it??? happy to back losers (and winner)to chase the rebate...........only 1 of the 7 horses can win and the other 6 lose...... different model for BF bots go about their job and he wins millions upon millions.....this is fact JML |
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JML - I'm probably missing the point of your question as it seems my answer is a bit straightforward but if you're on a 10% rebate and you expect a negative return of 5% on a horse, surely you back that horse and surely that horse fits your description as a loser.
I'm assuming this is an ev question and you aren't just asking why someone would back a losing horse. |
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From what I read, probably linked from here, most of his empire came about from US rebates. The tote don't care who's betting in to it which is possibly part of the reason why US racing is so screwed.
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I didn't realise that the quote "happy to back losers and still win" was meant for an individual race.
My missunderstanding was due to the fact that in that context it was so obvious that it doesn't really need saying, and applies to every other punter. ie if I back 3 horses in a race (£33.33 at 2/1, £25 at 3/1, and £20 at 4/1) I'd be delighted to finish with 2 losers. I fully understand why the Oz Tote would offer him rebates. But I doen't see why Betfair would offer him any favourable deals. |
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If Betfair offered rebates it would be to losing accounts not to winning ones. Maybe some of the Premium Charge is used in rebates for losers. e.g. A big losing player loses £100k over 100 large bets in a month.. give him £10k back so he can keep betting.
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Better odds with the bookies at half time than on the exchange for the city vs Barcelona game.
And that doesn't take into account the commission. |
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Never did I say he was getting rebated on BF!
but questioned due to his amazing profitability circa millions on BF does he pay PC........its a simple question that remains unanswered..... |
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frog2
18 Feb 14 17:24 If Betfair offered rebates it would be to losing accounts not to winning ones. Maybe some of the Premium Charge is used in rebates for losers. e.g. A big losing player loses £100k over 100 large bets in a month.. give him £10k back so he can keep betting.  |
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Nothing fair about the pc tax
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need purple to keep growing
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Purple is improving.Hopefully we can all move there bit by bit until we have a mass purple liquidity takeover next year.
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This is what is crushing Betfair.The tens of millions they lose every year due to the negative publicity they gain from the 60% winners tax.How long can betfair survive.
Cannot see them lasting 5 years.Site crashed today.Looks like they are running out of money. |
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Having shoved the knife in they then twist it by charging 2 to 3% over the actual premium charge rate because the vast majority of punters pay a base rate of more than 3%, the rate at which they crookedly deem to be fair.
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Much more than 3%. More like 7% (so an effective 27% for the 20% PC). If you are already paying 26% of your winnings in 5% commission, you will still have to pay a little Premium Charge on top of that. Do the math!
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Yeah 26.9% charges paid is the max for a 20% PC rate payer on 5% comm, and the minimum is 22.5%
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Eddie the eagle 19 Feb 14 08:04
frog2 18 Feb 14 17:24 If Betfair offered rebates it would be to losing accounts not to winning ones. Maybe some of the Premium Charge is used in rebates for losers. e.g. A big losing player loses £100k over 100 large bets in a month.. give him £10k back so he can keep betting. LaughLaughLaughLaughLaughLaughLaughLaughLaughLaughLaughLaughLaughLaughLaughLaughLaughLaughLaughLaughLaugh http://community.betfair.com/football/go/thread/view/94070/30159107/cricket---england-loses-again---10001-comes-in---bankrupt?pg=3 18/12/13 18:08 post |
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scrap it
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This place has become a joke.Makes to bookies look generous and great value places to bet.The exchange will be dead soon lets face it.
Only run now at lightening speed by betfair crossmatchers.If you made a mistake in the past you could cancel it and walk away with you hard earned. If you make a mistake on a race off in 8 hours betfair will gladly match it a millisecond.There you are son you want to bet your £1000 at 1.01. Sure we willstump up £10 against your £1000 in a millisecond. Totally joke.Surprise the impotent gaming commision havent stepped in by now. |
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lol even ladcrooks has better odds than no liquid betunfair.
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Does anyone know what's the ratio of PC collected compared to commission collected?
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No data given on this. The analysts don't bother asking at investment meetings. All the questions are on the sportsbook and the USA etc now. Unbelievable really. Exchange still provides most of the revenue but everyone involved has their head in the sand fiddling on other little markets rather than try to grow the exchange.
It would be great to see the exchange sold off and let management prove themselves running all the other stuff they promote without the cash cow of the exchange to fund it. |
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How many shares would I need to purchase to be able to attend the annual general meeting so I could ask some questions?
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So one year on after the intital post about Scraping the Premium Charge what has happened?
We have had trials of removing the PC for a couple of markets. But nothing else. No move to address the issue. No move to increase the performance of the exchange. At the same time the share price is up about 53% since my original post of doom and gloom. So maybe managment was right in maintaining the status quo? The latest quarterly revenue figures are as follows: SB Ex Game USA Sum 2012 5.4 59.7 19.6 8.4 93.1 2013 7.5 56.3 18 8.4 90.2 2014 9.5 56.7 18.5 10.4 95.1 The sportsbook has gained £2m in revenue in the past year. The exchange and gaming were flat and the USA is up £2m. Overall the revenue figures are up £2m over the last two years. After years of double digit growth when the exchange was the focus of management it has to be questioned why the focus of analysts and Betfair management is now the Sportsbook and the USA. Betfair Sportsbook revenue has grown from £5.4m to £9.5m for the quarter over two years. This is after investment in Craig Mucklow's Dublin crack trading team and the development of a brand new sportsbook platform. Last year £5m was spent on the Blue Square database to get more sportsbook customers. Betfair's front page now goes to the sportsbook. Betfair have stated they look to spend £60m a year on marketting and £100m on technology. How much of this is spent on the Sportsbook pet project and how much on the exchange? Its now a year since the the 'new' sportsbook has been up and running. A £5m spend on Bluesquare, The development costs, the traders costs, all the marketting cost and above all, the opportunity cost of not focusing on the exchange has resulted in a £2m increase in sportsbook revenues. I am really struggling to understand what is going on. Why not slim the company right down. Focus 100% on the exchange. Market the value of the exchange to punters. Why focus on secondary products with time and money? Management should ask themselves..... Would they put their own money into creating and marketting the Betfair sportsbook product? |
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Is that £100m on technology per year?
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£60m marketing to gain £2m of new custom!?
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Correction - it is £60m a year on tech and £100m a year on sales and marketting
http://corporate.betfair.com/~/media/Files/B/Betfair-V2/press-releases/2013/H1-14-analyst-presentation.pdf page 9 has the figures. The thing about the £100m for marketing is that they say themselves that the exchange revenue is holding up well where there is no marketing (see page 7). So why not massively reduce it to say £10-£20m a year and add £80m-£90m a year to the profits? I really cannot get my head round why they don't just cut the costs and run a slim line exchange where they have a basic monopoly rather than compete in the big spending low reward sportsbook market. Given that the focus now is heavily geared towards the UK market where a 15% GPT will be levied from the end of the year surely cutting costs to the bone is the key to making bigger profits. |
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Sales and marketing last 4 FY
2010 87.3m 2011 79.3m 2012 100.3m 2013 106.4m Tech and product costs 2010 55.2m 2011 62.4m 2012 61.5m 2013 60.2m Total admin costs as a percentage of revenue 2003 57.8% 2004 55.8% 2005 56.8% 2006 56.9% 2007 62.9% 2008 63.6% 2009 61.7% 2010 64.7% 2011 62.1% 2012 66.1% 2013 68.2% Clearly there a no economies of scale in this business. Back in 2004/2005 when the exchange was growing its fastest admin costs as a percentage of revenue was far lower. |