leaving aside your beef, the premium charge, a better reflection of how b/f is doing is overall profits, which could also be broken down into sectors ie horseracing, poker etc. that for the company is the acid test.then you have to compare your profits with other competitors. i know b/f is not strictly comparable but if ladbrokes and hills for example are not doing as well then  why should that also not apply to b/f?

HonkyJoe, the betting landscape got more competitive as a result of bf offering a peerless and entirely free tissue to their main rivals, inc. their internet-only rivals.

These rivals had one massive advantage over bf--they cd exclude winning player, w/out this being contrary to the central company ethos (of winners welcome at bf) or even going against standard industry practice. Bf were left w/ having to accommodate their winners when counterparty money was there--w/ the result that they faced a drain of their losers / valuable custom and/or the thinning of their markets, as fewer and fewer people wanted to bet against a judgment / information advantage.

It makes massive sense for bf to want to pick up as much recreational custom as poss. But they are doing it the wrong way--in a way that hoovers up marketing costs without bringing in a comparable amount in bottom-line profits. The exchange shd be prioritised over the sportsbook. Prob. the best answer is to let the exchange work as it was intended, poss. to charge winners a differentially large share of winnings (tho' not through any sort of mechanism like the pc) and to rebate the losses of heavy losers.

I remember pre PC the BHA got somehow got hold of a report that showed a few individuals were making fortunes on here on the Horse racing markets. The BHA lobbied for a profits tax to go to the levy, rightly BF told them to do one, we now know why, they wanted the money for themselves.
At the time we were told this new tax was to pay for increased marketing spend to attract new users to the exchange, a reason that was barely believable then and a complete lie now. The only commercial marketing activity BF does now is for fixed margin stuff, casino slots etc, and their woefully uncompetitive fixed odds offering. Online punters are not that stupid, even the ones losing loads on sports will still know how to use oddschecker and will very rarely end up here for a bet.
Ironically this should be a period of good growth for the Exchange, with the shops continually shooting themselves in the foot over FOBTs, and the gradual realisation they don't want to take bets on horses or dogs any more gaining wider public knowledge, BF should have an open goal, a dream opportunity to sell the Exchange to a wider audience. That they choose not to do so should be a worry for anyone concerned about the long term health of the Exchange project.

Did no one wonder why Betfair employed a bookmaker as the latest CEO?

In running markets are pathetic again today - Betfair doing a cracking job

If betfair increase the premium charge in reaction to the share price falling they'll dig an even bigger hole. Maybe in the very short term the share price would go up but long term it would crash

The way things are it's only a matter of time before there's a mass exodus from here. The only way to avoid the mass exodus is to reduce or scrap the premium charge. The resulting pr boost would be enormous

If a person ( already in the 20% PC category) puts £1000 on a 2/1 shot and it wins plus its his only bet during a qualifying week, does he pay
the normal 5% commission on the winnings plus 20% PC (25% total) or just the 20% PC,
Thanks.

Half of commission paid(2.5%) is counted against PC.

This is made up to 20% by paying 17.5% PC.

Total paid is 22.5%.

To be the "BEST ODDS" as BF so like to say , unless they say but we take 20% of that if you are a winner quite alot, & commission, on all of there adverts meaning they are in fact the worse odds! then this is illegal.
It's up to someone or a group of people that have earnt and are earning alot from BF and has alot to take them to court over this and many other holes i see in there case.

siwaadupa 21 Apr 14 21:42 Joined: 16 Feb 12 | Topic/replies: 415 | Blogger: siwaadupa's blog
Im full-timer here, but wondering about to go on part-time as its getting epmtier, and boring.
Im not loosing, but big profits has just ended for me(basketball,volleyball have been succesfuly cleared here). Tennis, football has left, but the golden time has passed away for ever? Im trying at ****, but bots are there as well, and they are miles away to be interesting for traders.

This sums up my position. I'm losing interest as many of the markets I've worked on during the last 5 years have either experienced a dramatic decline in liquidity, have been infested by leap-frogging bots or are clearly the home of those who pay a reduced rate of commission.  Some of it's been a gradual decline but I've noticed a huge difference the last few months.

My second year's gross winnings (i.e. before PC) was 66% higher than year 1, year 3 was 33% higher than year 2, year 4 was 25% higher than year 3 but year 5 (2014) will most likely be 50% LOWER than year 4.  Sure markets become more efficient - every year I've dropped some things and moved onto others - but this has always been the case. I'm now noticing fundamental differences.

I have two choices: tackle the Betfair challenge in a completely different manner or do this part time, regain my life (5 years of working weekends/evenings is too much) and look at other avenues for my income.  The second is becoming more and more likely as Betfair continue to compete with and attack customers like me.

They need to get new management in.

If I was in charge I could have betfair exchange up and running at its full potential in no time.

When "winner were welcome" Betfair was indeed a truly great place to bet.

We are agree that Betfair's philosophy is 'They shall not win under any circumstances'

We all agree that liquidity has all but disappeared now on here.

Combine this with the 30% increase in commission on international customers and winners still paying
on average 40-60% winners tax.

To conclude it really is a complete waste of life chasing a chance of very low profits at best.
More likely people will lose a heavy or lose very heavily.
Just not worth the effort for anyone.

Talk about doom and gloom pmbets - it's not as bad as all that. The only thing they need to remove or change substantially is the Premium Charge.

They will - and will be met by "We have no plans to change our pricing structure at the present time, however we are always on the lookout for ways of improving the customer experience" repeat to nauseous fade......

too true gerard. the customer q&a is just done to massage their egos.

I do not think that there will be a change now. It is now inbuilt into the culture to take the charge.

Half the board of Directors is new since this thread started. All 8 members arrived since the Premium Charge came in. Only one of the 8 was around when PC2 came in. All the rest are new.

I think its time to face the facts. Betfair is a different company to what is was pre-PC2. It is run by different people. People from a recreational 'bookmaking' background. They are looking to make their mark in USA casinos and a sportsbook not through exchange betting.

The only way I see the exchange being revived is when there is a change of management. Until then I think they will stubonely keep dressing up the sportsbook numbers saying how well they are doing.

A year after Richard Koch offered a lifeline to the exchange with a strategy to put it back at the core of the business they are not going to change. It would be admitting he was right and the board was wrong in rejecting his strategy and bid.

The problem is that the share price has never actually correlated to how Betfair is actually performing. It has always been higher than it should be on the premise of future growth/territories and potential earnings. At what point will the city actually realise that the exchange will never achieve even modest growth expectations now with the PC in place? Yes Betfair will benefit from additional revenues from the sportsbook but as we have seen it is an incredibly average product at best and one that just breeds resentment amongst the exchange players. What we do know is that BF have spent a small fortune on the sportsbook and revenues are just not that impressive at all. No doubt they will talk about price integration with the exchange etc as they have done for about the last 8 quarters. Has anyone seen any evidence of it? Of course not. The PC has all but killed the smaller markets and the sportsbook is not replacing them as was originally intended.

I have said it before and will say it again I could easily see a situation in 5 years when Betfair does not exist. Its amazing how many monopolies over the years have fallen apart due to the lack of understanding of its customers and what they bring to the party. Its such a pity as the exchange should be the most incredible product out there but this management team (and previous ones) seem hellbent on a short term money grab. Betfair went from long term, long term, long term to short term almost overnight. It is  amazing how little those in the city understand what is actually going on. I still own some Betfair shares but I really should sell them as the future is bleak at best.

What is the new UK tax Betfair will have to pay, it can't be the levy as they agreed a 5 year contract with the BHB in 2012,

http://corporate.betfair.com/media/press-releases/2012/04-07-2012.aspx

Are they going to have to pay an additional tax to the Inland Revenue?