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General Betting
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These 457 comments are related to the topic:
New PC charges
New PC charges
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Replies: 457
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Eddie
I just don't know is my answer to your question. But if your profile was typical of the majority of big time winners on here, then I would have to say that BF's general claim of losing money on such customers was wrong. So logicaly you must be the exception rather than the rule. And that is extremely unfortunate and quite unfair to you individually. |
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This is all the day before they'll be getting their ****-uppance with their investors for their bad results, which are released at 7am tomorrow (Wednesday 28th June). FYI, I *think* anyone can view their webcast (see http://corporate.betfair.com/)
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Soz, I mean results are release 7am tomorrow Wed 29th june!
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I'd love to know who these people who 'earn large sums of money whilst generating low levels of commission' actually are.
All I can say is that my brother-in-law lays dodgy favourites and has a strike rate of 74%, trading at a long term profit. He is not charged PC. |
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well, yes d_p. and a cynic would say, this has been announced the day before the results so they can say, "we know they're terrible but look - we're doing something to increase profitability."
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Having read the Betfair post on the reasoning behind the new charge I must say I cannot understand the logic.If you have two punters one of whom has played in 10000 markets and lost £500k the other having played in 10000 markets and won £500k.Both will have "cost" Betfair the same amount by playing the same number of markets.The winner will have paid far more in commission because of the way commission is structured yet according to betfair the winner is not contributing enough to the exchange and is being levied with an extra Premium Charge.
Maybe I am missing something??? |
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the winner won't put new money into the exchange. the loser will.
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Viva
Surely winners keep recycling money through the exchange as long as they keep winning at least. Thus it can also be viewed as "new " money, as it takes two to tango, doesn't it ? |
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Sorry I don't get your point.Betfair say that the 20% was not getting enough from the punters to cover the cost of providing the service yet those making a profit were paying more as it stands than those making a loss.Now they are being levied with more.No logic in their explanation.....
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Tolmi
I don't know about others but the whole question of the PC sometimes seems to me like thinking about the creation of the world. Your head just goes round in circles thinking about it. Talk about the chicken or the egg ? |
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As highlighted previously is this an exercise in b/f becomes bookmaker thereby taking commission and advantage of the spread? Sure they'll get sided in the odd market, but across so many any risk will be mitigated.
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If they do become the bookmaker then closed accounts are sure to follow.
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One question I keep asking myself is.
Is the future of BF more dependent on attracting and keeping customers who have the skills to be or become net winners, or attracting those who will never be net winners ? |
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those who will be never be net winners wont hang around here long or bet here in the first place....
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As bookie, the later for sure.
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latter ^^
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295 replies & nearly 11k views would suggest this is one hot topic!
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FINE AS FROG HAIR
It was viva el presidente's post I didn't understand.It would seem to me to be a cynical exercise to prevent money being taken out of the system as they would prefer the money to stay in the system and keep raking off the commission as it goes over and back between punters. |
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This is effectively closing accounts though FLL.
It's no different to a HS bookmaker turning around and saying you can still punt with me, but if you do win, I want 60% back, if you lose, no rebates I keep it all. What's worse is this a person 2 person exchange FFS. Remember their initial adverts. Fkn joke all this. |
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I got my PC as a % of GP down from 13.5% in 2009 to 1.5% in 2010. I can still make quite a lot before being hit with the 40%, provided Betfair don't increase the charge tomorrow or next week or whatever.
The % of GP that goes on costs keeps going up every year. I've got costs other than what I pay Betfair as well. Not counting the profit I withdraw in lieu of a salary, 10-15% of my annual GP goes to pay for software, hardware, sattellite, multiple internet connections etc. And you could add a couple of percentage points for opportunity cost (Betfair are getting the interest on my funds). Time to consider a serious back up plan... |
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Correct Investor, as a very astute person who I know always states "Change is here to stay" & it's how we react to those changes that ultimately serves us.
As soon as b/f was floated this was going to happen. |
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1) What is next?
2) All the WINNERS will get involved eventually, even if it does take for some many years, as, every winner will have a total win of 250K one day. 3) Betfair is taking away all the dreams everyone has, and that is winning loads over here... 4) The 0.1% and that number will go up EVERY DAY!!!! |
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That's right, High Street bookie is what they have become. Having to answer to shareholders altered the dynamic overnight.
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Froggy was correct also with his assertion of hysteria, albeit bluntly put in his inimitable style.
There is always an answer. |
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I agree Eddie you have paid over your fair share there, hard to see how anyone could argue otherwise.
Each individuals winnings are a personal matter really as he has risked his hard earned after commission and shouldnt come into the equation imo. It sets a bad precedent for the future of fair play in gambling otherwise surely. I'm not talking about the company, they can obviously do what they want within reason but it doesn't make it right. |
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I'm not sure the PC does generate more money long term. It's destoyed people's sense of loyalty to betfair, and probably slowed their growth in terms of new customers. In the short term they may get a bit more cash, in the medium term I can't see how it's good business to fleece your customers so blatantly.
The main point of betfair for me, and I'm sure many others, is to be able to dream of making it big - the only difference between them and the bookies is that you can make huge bets on here and dream of winning big. If they're going to take 60% of that, I'm not sure many will bother dreaming anymore, or they might dream somewhere else.... |
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they said that they needed a minimum of 20% in commission 3 years ago to make those accounts profitable now its 40%
not because costs have doubled in 3 years but because they got away with it the first time |
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says between 40%-60% who pays 40 who 60
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Betfair is publicly owned now
It is also a valuable commodity. It provides a Market place for some successful punters to make a living free of tax. There is a premium on this and this premium just got higher to sustain the business model. Nothing is ever free in life! It's not rocket science and if your not happy with it vote with your feet but what is the point in all the sharks going over to the purple place without any bait to play with? Must be a tough situation for some hence the uproar. |
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tolmi, it's pretty straightforward. BF's income is determined by 2 things: how much is put into the exchange, and what proportion of it ends up belonging to them.
winners don't add new money, losers do. |
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I think thats the wrong way of looking at it though Presidente, you want to be encouraging people to win, and bring in more customers by trumpeting that fact surely.
Not making waves to stop people winning, hardly sending out the right message is it to prospective new clients. I think if they carry on with that kind of outlook they will eventually go out of business. |
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I think most ordinary recreational punters, to the extent they're aware of it, will think "higher charges at 250K? I'll worry about it when it happens". can't imagine joe mugg being worried by this.
not that I'm in favour mind. just trying to unpick the rationale. |
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At my rate I'd probably be OK on current form until I retire without reaching that figure lol but just dont agree with these folk interfering with the ethics of gambling that has stood the test of time.
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The problems could be if the goalposts were moved again and again in the meantime and other companies jumped on board with similar ideas, it may eventually be impossible to win at betting apart from in a similar way to that you could win on a gaming machine (in the short term).
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I agree that the whole picture has been muddied a bit by BF recently going public with the unfortunate inevitable pressure that puts on short term profit targets.
But if this " premium" PC tax is really only expected to affect 0.1% of its customer base, then BF has surely analysed the profiles of this relatively small number of accounts in great detail, and projected the likely overall net impact. That is the gains vs the losses. And I wouldn't be surprised if some extremely highly respected outside consultants have been asked to assess the whole commission structure. If it's really a " nothing" issue for 99.9 % of BF customers, then it's all a storm in a teacup really. Also, as Investor points out, the real shrewdies can and do find ways to mitigate the effects of any and everything that BF comes up with in the form of charges, and so it would appear that a lot of the so called " target "customers" will just carry on with business as usual or with a few mofifications. The bottom line with these big boys is that they will still be making big bucks and really have no other way or place to do this well out of gambling. |
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I know alot of people have created multiple accounts though for various reasons (as well as some inactive ones are probably still being tallied up) so any percentage cannot be a reliable figure and probably shouldnt be taken at face value.
Alot of the shrewdies are now saying they can't beat these charges from what I've been reading on some other forums, so I think this is far more drastic than the previous step for those players. |
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Froggy, do you work for b/f?
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But if this " premium" PC tax is really only expected to affect 0.1% of its customer base, then BF has surely analysed the profiles of this relatively small number of accounts in great detail, and projected the likely overall net impact.
This is the issue. Betfair have only looked at what it will cost them in losing these 500 or so accounts. They've not taken the time to fully understand the impact these charges have on those below the 250k 'magic' number. People in this bracket (at least the serious players) plan their lives around Betfair's charges and like any line of business will do what they can to minimise the impact. The result? Everyone who's read about these new charges is either contemplating life without Betfair or thinking of a way not to pay. Eitherway, it's a lose-lose situation for Betfair. |
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Dave
No I don't. I'm just pointing out that BF is not run by idiots who are just making things up on the run. That's all. |
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BF is not run by idiots who are just making things up on the run
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